Re-appealing Penalty Fare imposed (and first appeal turned down) after ticket barrier "ate" valid ticket

[Mojo]

The stated version of events is virtually impossible (I'm not suggesting that the OP's son is lying), if a ticket is left in gate and then the gate opens, generally the ticket handling unit won't accept another ticket until the other is removed, I

l have seen more than once (on the E2 gates, which looking at photo of Eastbourne is only the model used on the wide aisle gate) people forcing a paper ticket into the slot. The gate isn't "accepting" the ticket but it isn't blocking it from being taken in like it would be on the E1 gates.

 

[island]

if a ticket is left in gate and then the gate opens

I've never come across a ticket gate that returns a ticket and then opens before the returned ticket has been picked up.

 

[Knoodlepot]

I've never come across a ticket gate that returns a ticket and then opens before the returned ticket has been picked up.

Birmingham New Street gates do this if you wait for a minute. People walk through and leave the ticket behind the gate closes when the passenger walks through.
If I have time tomorrow I'll get two tickets and film it.

 

[Eastbourne]

A minor point, the senior railcard ticket was an off peak return,this being the outward journey it should not have been retained

Thank you for this piece of detective work. It seems helpful in terms of piecing together what might have happened?

I see from @Haywain below that wasn't what happened.

So, we're left with asking "How could that ticket possibly have come into my son's possession to be used as a fraudulent attempt to go through without having his own ticket at Eastbourne?"

He 100% bought a Weekly Season Ticket that day - we have the receipt - and he 100% used it to board the train at Bexhill. It would be a crazy coincidence that somehow he lost his valid Weekly Season Ticket on the train, REALISED THAT HE'D LOST IT, and then luckily the Senior person had, between Pevensey and Eastbourne, left their ticket, needed to exit at Eastbourne, lying around on the train or platform, so that my son could pick up that ticket attempt to use it, and then when the gate didn't open for some reason with this valid ticket he quickly concocted a fraudulent story about having put his valid Weekly Season Ticket into the gate machine and it being swallowed and the Senior ticket being returned...????!!!

I have double/triple checked with my son that he is 1000% sure he still had his own ticket and he put it into the gate barrier machine in the in slot.

His valid ticket was swallowed by the machine.

The station staff member should have opened the gate barrier machine up to find his Weekly Season Ticket stuck inside. They should not have issued a Penalty Fare and told him "not to worry as you won't have to pay anything today".

I've never come across a ticket gate that returns a ticket and then opens before the returned ticket has been picked up.

What is the implication here? That my son somehow had acquired the Senior ticket on the train between Pevensey and Eastbourne and he put it into the gate barrier. If he had done that then the gate would have opened, he'd have picked up the ticket and gone on his way....??

Are you saying that the Senior ticket must have come out of the machine return slot after my son had put his valid ticket into the in slot?

Birmingham New Street gates do this if you wait for a minute. People walk through and leave the ticket behind the gate closes when the passenger walks through.
If I have time tomorrow I'll get two tickets and film it.

Thanks for this.

I have requested the Eastbourne CCTV footage. I appreciate the lack of detail regarding the actual printed words on the tickets but it should hopefully be good enough quality to show people (i.e. the Senior person presumably involved and then my son...) approaching the barrier and their behaviour in terms of inserting tickets, retrieving tickets and waiting/going through the gate barrier....

I'm assuming we're talking about cubic gates here? The stated version of events is virtually impossible (I'm not suggesting that the OP's son is lying), if a ticket is left in gate and then the gate opens, generally the ticket handling unit won't accept another ticket until the other is removed, I have seen on occasion though that another ticket will be accepted and it is thrown out alongside the previous ticket that was left in the gate, as for the gate keeping a season ticket, again, virtually impossible.

But we are talking of machines here which can have one in a million unexplainable glitches.

One sequence of events that may have happened (bear with me!) is that passenger A put in the wrong ticket which was rejected, whilst passenger a is stood there the OP's son puts his ticket in, which opens the gate whilst the previous passenger is told in the gate, previous passenger then picks up OP sons ticket and walks off unaware.

To the OP, maybe ask your son if the previous passenger was still stood in the gate when he entered his ticket?

Thanks for this. I have checked and the previous passenger was not still stood in the gate. It isn't that busy a situation and my son would not have even approached close to the gate, let alone inserted his own ticket, while someone else was still standing in there. And the Senior ticket that my son ended up with was a valid ticket that presumably was not rejected.

Further, the station staff would have been aware of a potential problem with the gate machine if moments before there had been an issue with somebody else's ticket not working in the way it should do.

 

[Eastbourne]

I have no idea on what basis you say this, but it is wrong - the journey for that ticket had been completed and, if the barriers are set up to retain tickets, it would have been retained.

OK, thanks for that. Makes it more likely that what my son described initially is exactly what happened somehow (i.e. his own ticket went in and a different, previously retained by the machine, one came out...).

Could you comment on my edited post above please if you don't mind?

Can anyone give a plausible explanation for what actually happened here..??!!

The facts as I 100% believe them are that my son was in possession of the Weekly Season Ticket he had purchased that morning and that he put the ticket into the gate machine on his return to Eastbourne. The machine swallowed his ticket and returned to him the Senior Railcard holder ticket from Pevensey & Westham that was then inspected by the member of station staff.

What other possible explanation is there that fits the available information...??

Are they asserting that, despite having the Weekly Season Ticket at Bexhill, by the time he got to the gate at Eastbourne he found himself no longer in possession of the ticket, having "lost or mislaid" it, and so he couldn't believe his luck when he saw the Senior ticket just sitting there in the return slot and available for him to use as part of a quickwitted on the spot fraud about having put his valid Weekly Season Ticket into the gate machine and it being swallowed and this Senior ticket being returned...????!!!

Or are they asserting that, despite having the Weekly Season Ticket at Bexhill, at some time on the train to Eastbourne he realised he was no longer in possession of the ticket, having "lost or mislaid" it, and then luckily the Senior Railcard holding person had, in the few minutes between Pevensey & Westham and Eastbourne, left their ticket lying around on the train or platform, so that my son could snatch up that ticket, attempt to use it, and then when the gate didn't open for some reason with this valid ticket in the return slot now he quickly concocted a fraudulent story about having put his valid Weekly Season Ticket into the gate machine and it being swallowed and the Senior ticket being returned...????!!! And the person who had sadly mislaid their Senior Railcard holder's ticket somehow got through the barrier at Eastbourne without needing a ticket despite the gate barriers being in action and the presence of obviously vigilant station staff??

Or are they asserting that somehow my son boarded the train at Bexhill at 16.06 and somehow fraudulently purchased the Senior ticket at Pevensey & Westham station at 16.17 whilst on the train to Eastbourne that arrived at 16.33....???!!

None of it makes any sense to me that they can possibly pursue the Penalty Fare.

I have had other advice that my local MP might well be interested and effective in righting the wrong with a well-targeted e-mail from him.

Can people on here help me with the best way to word my re-appeal in order for it to be successful and avoid the need for further aggravation..?

 

[NorthernSystem]

I've never come across a ticket gate that returns a ticket and then opens before the returned ticket has been picked up.

From my experience, CUBIC gates will open after a timeout (Unknown period) if a ticket hasn't been picked up, then will close once the sensors detect the person has passed through.

 

[oliveyoutwo]

Can anyone give a plausible explanation for what actually happened here..??!!

Is it possible that your son had collected the wrong return ticket from the machine when he purchased his ticket? This has happened to me in the past, after the machine printed my tickets, I collected them plus some another ticket which was left in the machine by the person who used the machine previously. It is also posible that your son pick the Senior ticket and his outward tickets before the machine finished printing his return ticket.

 

[Eastbourne]

Is it possible that your son had collected the wrong return ticket from the machine when he purchased his ticket? This has happened to me in the past, after the machine printed my tickets, I collected them plus some another ticket which was left in the machine by the person who used the machine previously. It is also posible that your son pick the Senior ticket and his outward tickets before the machine finished printing his return ticket.

No. He bought his ticket in the Ticket Office.

Thank you for the suggestion though. It is exactly what should be needed by the Penalty Fare imposers that they can produce a plausible explanation for the events in order to refute what my son has told them actually happened.

He definitely had a valid Weekly Season Ticket and used it at Bexhill to board the train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

as for the gate keeping a season ticket, again, virtually impossible

I’ve had my season ticket eaten by barriers a few times in different locations, including Durham, Newcastle, and Euston. You can imagine how calm and collected I was when it happened at Euston in the evening peak with a £6000 annual season ticket. On some occasions the barriers opened without spitting it out and on some occasions they didn’t.

I don’t know if the OP is telling the truth, but their story is certainly plausible.

As for the other ticket, it could be as simple as the previous passenger had taken it out of the slot and left it on the top. Easy to for the OP’s son to be working on autopilot and pick the ticket up assuming it was his.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can now recall that it is indeed possible to push a ticket into the newer (non-pneumatic) Cubic barrier ticket slots, as I've done it before by accident. If you add that to the suggestion that they do open if the ticket is left in (I didn't think they did, but enough people seems to confirm they do) the following sequence seems feasible:

• Previous person put ticket in, it pops up at the top, they faff about for a bit not knowing they need to collect it, then walk through leaving it
• OP's son pushes his ticket all the way into the slot (which the newer Cubic barriers don't prevent you doing, but they don't "grab" it as per normal operation)
• OP's son takes the ticket from the top slot, the gate does not open, and so seeks staff assistance, however his season is already inside the gate as he pushed it in

The older gates which physically resist a ticket being inserted when one is not being accepted are a much better design and at these this isn't possible. What type does Eastbourne have?

 

[jumble]

It should not be possible to feed a ticket in while one has been left in the return slot.

Not all barriers are programmed to retain tickets.

This is how barriers normally operate in my experience and is why I am struggling with the version of events that you have passed on to us. I hope you understand why it is problematic.

This is naturally on the assumption that the sensor in the return slot is working correctly.

 

[Eastbourne]

Thanks for continued helpful contributions.

Can anyone confirm that a Pevensey to Eastbourne ticket would normally be retained by the gate machine at Eastbourne?

I don't use the train everyday but I have never had a spent ticket returned to me by the gate at Eastbourne that I"ve then had to dispose of...

 

[Haywain]

This is naturally on the assumption that the sensor in the return slot is working correctly.

Hence my saying that it should not be possible.

 

[Eastbourne]

@AlterEgo can you check this notice is enforceable please?

 

[Egg Centric]

@AlterEgo can you check this notice is enforceable please?

Some of these images have your son's name in. You may wish to redact.

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo can you check this notice is enforceable please?

Is there anything on the reverse of the notice? I cannot see that it states an entitlement to a receipt, which a PF notice must have to be compliant.

Also, how old is your son? Over 16, or under 16?

 

[oliveyoutwo]

Is there anything on the reverse of the notice? I cannot see that it states an entitlement to a receipt, which a PF notice must have to be compliant.

It is there.

 

[John Palmer]

So far as I can tell, the full single fare applicable to a child's journey from Bexhill arriving at Eastbourne at the time the penalty fare was issued was £3.70. £7.40 was the full single fare applicable to the corresponding journey for an adult. In this case the penalty fare of £107.40 would therefore be appropriate for a journey by an adult, but since the penalty fare notice itself notes that it was one issued to a child it is, on its face, one issued for an incorrect amount; it should instead have been a lesser penalty fare of £103.70.

Regulation 9(6) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 provides that:

'In this regulation “the full single fare applicable” is to be determined by reference to—
(a) the age of the person in question...'

- from which it is clear that, for a child, it is the child fare rather than the adult fare that should form the “full single fare applicable” element of the penalty fare charged. This may mean that in this case “the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations” (Regulation 16(3)(a) of the 2018 Regulations). This is a ground for appeal against the penalty fare which, once the fact of the overcharge has been established (as would be apparent from the terms of the notice itself in conjunction with evidence of the applicable child fare), should leave the relevant appeal panel with no option but to allow the appeal: “If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in regulation 16(3) applies, it must, subject to paragraph (7), allow the appeal.” (Regulation 16(7) of the 2018 Regulations).

Unlike the case forming the subject of another current thread, this is one where the penalty fare charged exceeds that authorised by the Regulations according to its own terms.

However, @AlterEgo's post #46 highlights a vital consideration. In post #17 the OP states that the son's age is 17, and if so, even with a recent 17th birthday, he must have been at least 16 years old when the penalty fare was issued in January. Which prompts the question: why does the penalty fare notice state that it was issued to a child?

 

[oliveyoutwo]

However, @AlterEgo's post #46 highlights a vital consideration. In post #17 the OP states that the son's age is 17, and if so, even with a recent 17th birthday, he must have been at least 16 years old when the penalty fare was issued in January. Which prompts the question: why does the penalty fare notice state that it was issued to a child?

Perhaps OP's son told them that he has a child when the penalty fare was issued. Anyway, I do not see how this is relevent now OP's son has exhausted all three appeals.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps OP's son told them that he has a child when the penalty fare was issued. Anyway, I do not see how this is relevent now OP's son has exhausted all three appeals.

There has been only one appeal.

 

[Eastbourne]

Thanks very much for latest updates. The discrepancy between the ticket being incorrectly issued to a Child but with a Penalty Fare amount for an Adult was a great spot and might have been a route to getting it quashed on this technicality.

Unfortunately, however, my son was 17 at the time so the Adult fare is correct. From reading the relevant legislation above I don't think the Penalty Fare Notice having the inaccurate Child nomination is significant?

We have only done one appeal so far.

I have today made a Subject Access Request for CCTV footage from Govia Thameslink and pleasingly had a prompt acknowledgement. I replied straightaway highlighting the need for urgency as the 28 day period for potential deletion of CCTV footage is today. I hope that doesn't turn into an issue.

Does anyone have an answer for me about what they think actually happened? Can anyone present a plausible alternative version of events to what I believe happened i.e. the gate machine swallowed the Season Ticket?

• The theory about the Senior Railcard ticket being left lying somehow on top of the gate near the return slot is not plausible. My son took the ticket out of the return slot.
• I believe that, as is normal, the gates at Eastbourne are set to retain tickets that are spent when Eastbourne is the final destination. Whenever I have had an equivalent ticket to Eastbourne it has been retained by the machine.
• So, how did the Senior Railcard ticket come to be poking out of the return slot? If you don't believe it is possible, then how did it come to be in my son's possession? (Remember it was purchased at Pevensey & Westham Station at 16.17. My son was in a College lesson in Bexhill at 15.30 and boarded a train at Bexhill Station at 16.06.)
• Remember that he purchased his Weekly Season Ticket from the Ticket Office in the morning of the day in question and he used the ticket to get through the gate at Bexhill on his way home.
• There is no remotely plausible way to claim that my son got to the gate having lost or mislaid his ticket and then siezed upon the opportunity provided by the inexplicable Senior Railcard ticket to concoct a fraud

Is the above line of reasoning likely to lead to success at second or third appeal?

A new piece of information (from my wife who was present for the aftermath) is that when they went to the Ticket Office after the Penalty Fare Notice had been issued, to ask about CCTV, the member of staff there said that he thought what had happened was that the Season Ticket had gone into the in slot as Ted described and the Senior Railcard ticket had indeed come out of the return slot. He advised that was the grounds on which to appeal against the Penalty Fare.

 

[RPI]

l have seen more than once (on the E2 gates, which looking at photo of Eastbourne is only the model used on the wide aisle gate) people forcing a paper ticket into the slot. The gate isn't "accepting" the ticket but it isn't blocking it from being taken in like it would be on the E1 gates.

That's a fair point actually, but it does take some effort to force it in when this happens, but accepted, this does happen.

 

[SussexMan]

I don't understand why the gateline staff didn't simply open up the gate to check if there was a weekly ticket in there and also why the ticket office staff didn't also suggest that when the OP and his mum went to the ticket office soon after being issued with the penalty fare.

 

[Snow1964]

Perhaps OP's son told them that he has a child when the penalty fare was issued. Anyway, I do not see how this is relevent now OP's son has exhausted all three appeals.

To get to the bottom of this you would need the transcript of the conversation, to know exact words, which unless it was recorded, isn't likely to happen.

There are other possibilities eg the person was in school uniform, so presumed to be a child going to/from school. Remember the Government effectively raised school leaving age to 18 few years ago, so the common definition of child, is someone who has not reached 18th birthday. The railway is out of line with non standard age definition (which seems to pre-date Raising of School leaving age about 53 years ago)

 

[Eastbourne]

Thanks all again. I was initially alarmed by the turn of the conversation (as poacher turned gamekeeper myself I am well aware of what teenage boys are capable...) but he does actually have the "16-17 Saver" card and uses it to buy his Weekly Season Ticket(s)... he has done that for coming up to 2 years of 6th Form at Bexhill in light of the substantial saving it affords.

So, we still don't have any viable description of the supposed fraud?

I agree that the Southern Rail station staff should have opened the gate machine at the time. I assume that is not completely required protocol, but them having chosen not to do that must put the onus on themselves to now at least be able to offer a semi-plausible version of events from their side to justify the Penalty Fare...???

 

[MotCO]

Aside from the issue of the machine retaining a season ticket, I think that a key question that the TOC need to answer is how did the OP get hold of a ticket which was bought when he was elsewhere (on the train), and was put into the barrier (presumably by someone else) and the ticket was not retained even though that journey had been completed.

Unless the OP somehow had got hold of this ticket and had put this (expired) ticket into the barrier, hence it was rejected, and the season ticket was lost elsewhere.

 

[SuspectUsual]

17 year old boy with limited experience of train travel

he has done that for coming up to 2 years of 6th Form

Just an observation as you progress through the appeals process. (Not a criticism or calling anyone out for being dishonest)

These statements could be seen as being contradictory. Proof read everything more than once, get help with a draft here, read it through the eyes of a cynical appeals processor and ask if anything doesn’t look right

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just an observation as you progress through the appeals process. (Not a criticism or calling anyone out for being dishonest)

I don't see any conflict there at all if he's nearly 18.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Nearly two years using the same route doesn't equate to "inexperienced" to me, and more importantly possibly also to an appeals assessor

 

[Haywain]

I agree that the Southern Rail station staff should have opened the gate machine at the time. I assume that is not completely required protocol,

It may be worth noting that revenue protection staff are not the same as gateline staff, and wouldn't have access to open the gate to access the bin.