re introduction of staff travel boxes for all non safeguarded rail staff

[BestWestern]

Not at all the same. If you get a free advanced ticket it costs you nowt and you know you are going to travel. If my BA mate gets a standby ticket he stands a good chance of not travelling as all the seats may be (and often are these days) sold. And, it costs him more than to go with a guaranteed seat on a lo-cost airline!

And, it's only the long term employees of the non-lo-cost airlines that get even that 'perk'.

A few differences, methinks!

And if the common press and news media are to be believed, your mates at BA also get paid very handsomely indeed for their work, substantially more so than any of their comrades elsewhere in that industry, so I'd have thought that they could probably get by without too many perks being needed on top!

 

[lookingforit35]

Lot's of interesting detail about different entitlement for different "grades" of staff. Or increased entitlements for time in job.

Forgive me if slightly tongue in cheek I say this sounds like something out of the 1950s, or perhaps slightly more recently the differing staff canteens at Grace Brothers Department Store (come on, you remember!).

Modern business has in so many ways moved forwards, but not in this respect it seems. Do rail staff still get one uniform salary increment each year too, regardless of how they have performed, something many big employers did away with years ago as it failed to address underperformance?

Not being all right wing or anything. Just genuinely amazed at this type of arrangement still being in existence.

 

[Clip]

No free travel entitlement on airlines then I take it

I have no idea. BUT I bet you any money that you only get perks with your own airline and no discounts/free travel with any other airline(unless it may be an affiliate)

So again the comparison you have tried to make is just as bad and on shaky ground as the earlier macdonalds one.

 

[CosherB]

And if the common press and news media are to be believed, your mates at BA also get paid very handsomely indeed for their work, substantially more so than any of their comrades elsewhere in that industry, so I'd have thought that they could probably get by without too many perks being needed on top!

That used to be the case, butn the airline industry has changed and these days it's all about cost reduction. Unlike the railway, the airline industry is an 'open' one; anyone can set up an airline (with the appropriate Operator Certificates of course) if they think they can make a profit. Anyone can apply for a job as a pilot as long as they have got themselves the relevant qualifications (independant flying training schools can provide these).

The result is a 'free market'. Higher salaries paid by one airline over another for similar work are not sustainable, as that would be reflected in the ticket price and the passengers wold flock to the cheaper option. This is exactly what the BA cabin crew stikes were about; BA telling staff 'the world has changed', BA is no longer the cosy state airline protected from competition that it once was. It was to compete on a level playing field so salaries significantly above what the opposion are paying are just not possible.

This is exactly what's wrong on the railway - there is no real competition (and can't be in the way there can in the airline business) so we see drivers on ludicrous salaries (often twice what an airline pilot at Easy Jet is earning) simply because the 'closed' way the railway works allows such practices (and many more) to continue.

What does a driver earn today compared to what a driver earned 30 years ago (in today's money equivalent)? Now go compare that to airline staff. Now tell me who is 'very handsomely paid'!

 

[PR1Berske]

Petitioning the government to intervene in private sector staff benefits.

It was a hell of a benefit, sure, but even on a forum full of railway employees, I can't be the only one to despair at this expression of self entitlement

Here, here


You don't work for a nationalised industry, stop throwing your weight around

The public won't stand for it.

 

[harz99]

Lot's of interesting detail about different entitlement for different "grades" of staff. Or increased entitlements for time in job.

Forgive me if slightly tongue in cheek I say this sounds like something out of the 1950s, or perhaps slightly more recently the differing staff canteens at Grace Brothers Department Store (come on, you remember!).

Modern business has in so many ways moved forwards, but not in this respect it seems. Do rail staff still get one uniform salary increment each year too, regardless of how they have performed, something many big employers did away with years ago as it failed to address underperformance?

Not being all right wing or anything. Just genuinely amazed at this type of arrangement still being in existence.

If you refer to my post, I did say in BR days....................

Certainly the bit of BR I worked for before privatisation had in theory introduced performance related pay for MS grades and above. Trouble is, when it came to deciding who got what, Senior Management bottled it, and we all ended up getting the same % increase as everyone else, which was no incentive to those of us who had worked our butts off, embracing new ways of working etc. It certainly helped crystalise my thoughts on getting out before privatisation happened.

 

[Minilad]

I have no idea. BUT I bet you any money that you only get perks with your own airline and no discounts/free travel with any other airline(unless it may be an affiliate)

So again the comparison you have tried to make is just as bad and on shaky ground as the earlier macdonalds one.

Nice bit of selective quoting there. That was a response to CS who said we should be grateful for what we get and we don't know we are born. I was just pointing out that airlines also give their staff free travel but I don't see anyone moaning about that.

And by the way I am very grateful for what I get. But I don't get any boxes at all so all I am asking for is to be equal with someone who might have only done a couple of months service before privatisation but will keep those benefits
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

T

This is exactly what's wrong on the railway - there is no real competition (and can't be in the way there can in the airline business) so we see drivers on ludicrous salaries (often twice what an airline pilot at Easy Jet is earning) simply because the 'closed' way the railway works allows such practices (and many more) to continue.

What does a driver earn today compared to what a driver earned 30 years ago (in today's money equivalent)? Now go compare that to airline staff. Now tell me who is 'very handsomely paid'!

Here we go again. You attacking drivers and what they earn. Firstly I doubt any fully trained pilot at easy jet is on 25k a year. Secondly drivers wages are high because in many cases we have sold terms and conditions that used to be in place for a higher basic wage. And of course the wages tend to be high to stop drivers being poached by other companies. Which happens a lot, just ask London Midland who have lost a lot of drivers to XC.
So yes I regard myself as handsomely paid. But I work long hours for the money so I really couldn't care less what you think. The fact you think bus drivers should earn the same as train drivers just about sums you up.
Troll is obvious Troll

 

[Clip]

Nice bit of selective quoting there. That was a response to CS who said we should be grateful for what we get and we don't know we are born. I was just pointing out that airlines also give their staff free travel but I don't see anyone moaning about that.

And by the way I am very grateful for what I get. But I don't get any boxes at all so all I am asking for is to be equal with someone who might have only done a couple of months service before privatisation but will keep those benefits

Not selective at all, I was responding directly to your post that I read.

Airlines do/do not give their staff free travel - BUT not on other airlines. This thread itself is about staff boxes for travel on ALL other TOCS so my point still stands that your comparison with airlines or any other industry are null and void because you do not get anything between competing companies in any other walk of life.

 

[Minilad]

Not selective at all, I was responding directly to your post that I read.

Airlines do/do not give their staff free travel - BUT not on other airlines. This thread itself is about staff boxes for travel on ALL other TOCS so my point still stands that your comparison with airlines or any other industry are null and void because you do not get anything between competing companies in any other walk of life.

I was not comparing it. CS bought the airlines comparison into it

 

[Clip]

So why mention them in the first place then if not for comparison to the discussion that is taking place?

 

[notadriver]

Nice bit of selective quoting there. That was a response to CS who said we should be grateful for what we get and we don't know we are born. I was just pointing out that airlines also give their staff free travel but I don't see anyone moaning about that.

And by the way I am very grateful for what I get. But I don't get any boxes at all so all I am asking for is to be equal with someone who might have only done a couple of months service before privatisation but will keep those benefits
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Here we go again. You attacking drivers and what they earn. Firstly I doubt any fully trained pilot at easy jet is on 25k a year. Secondly drivers wages are high because in many cases we have sold terms and conditions that used to be in place for a higher basic wage. And of course the wages tend to be high to stop drivers being poached by other companies. Which happens a lot, just ask London Midland who have lost a lot of drivers to XC.
So yes I regard myself as handsomely paid. But I work long hours for the money so I really couldn't care less what you think. The fact you think bus drivers should earn the same as train drivers just about sums you up.
Troll is obvious Troll

Can I just quickly add that drivers in Holland, France and Switzerland all earn wages similar to their British counterparts.

Easyjet pay their captains around 70k and I think the second pilot gets 40k+. Senior BA Captain : 106k.

XCdriver just give CS the cab ride you promised. That would make him happy

 

[CosherB]

Plenty in the RH seat of a holiday jet on about £25k. Air taxi and 3rd-level turboprop, £15k isn't unknown.

Train drivers enjoy excessive pay levels because of collusion between the union and the TOCs. It seems, reading these forums, that there's no shortage of potential young applicants but a great shortage of opportunity for them to get into the job.

A cab ride wouldn't cut it; I'm not one for watching other people do stuff, I like to do it myself! Last time I was invited into someone else's loco cab it was 63601, a Robinson 2-8-0 on the Great Central, and I was driving it for most of the journey. Much more interesting than watching a DMU driver do his stuff!

 

[harz99]

Last time I was invited into someone else's loco cab it was 63601, a Robinson 2-8-0 on the Great Central, and I was driving it for most of the journey. Much more interesting than watching a DMU driver do his stuff!

And an awful lot slower!

Properly qualified and insured for that line are we?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Train drivers enjoy excessive pay levels because of collusion between the union and the TOCs. It seems, reading these forums, that there's no shortage of potential young applicants but a great shortage of opportunity for them to get into the job.....

I'm not quite sure how we have ended up discussing train driver wages (they are not the only staff on the railway!), but I don't think you are quite appreciative of the costs and time involved in training drivers, nor do you seem to be aware of how many people fail the pre-training tests.

 

[CosherB]

I don't think you are quite appreciative of the costs and time involved in training drivers, nor do you seem to be aware of how many people fail the pre-training tests.

Well I've no idea where you got those two strange notions from. Would you care to explain?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And an awful lot slower!

Properly qualified and insured for that line are we?

'We'? I don't know about you, but I'm legal for that.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

From the part of your post that I quoted.

 

[CosherB]

From the part of your post that I quoted.

Which was

....Train drivers enjoy excessive pay levels because of collusion between the union and the TOCs. It seems, reading these forums, that there's no shortage of potential young applicants but a great shortage of opportunity for them to get into the job.....

Now, please explain how

I don't think you are quite appreciative of the costs and time involved in training drivers, nor do you seem to be aware of how many people fail the pre-training tests.

can be deduced from that. I am fully aware of the driver training process and that many of the applicants won't meet the standards. That still leaves many who will.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Okay, if you are aware of the process you will be aware that in most cases the pre-training tests will need to be funded, as well as any costs involved in getting the interviews done (this may be zero). Then you have the costs associated with training someone for the best part of a year. If the company is not paying as much as another, then the brand new qualified driver will seek to go there instead, especially if they are local, so the company is back to square one.

If the cost of finding and training a new driver is greater than the cost of the wage increase then it may be better for the company to pay the wage (although they will obviously try to keep it as low as possible). If the drivers are happy, they don't move on and so no new positions are created (until a driver retires or does something bad).

In summary, there may well be lots of perfectly acceptable young recruits just waiting to be snapped up, but TOCs want profit, not to be spending money training people because the very grade they are training for are leaving as soon as they are qualified. Your post gives the impression that TOCs can (if they choose to) simply tell the drivers to take a long walk off of a short pier if they don't like the pay, but actually it isn't that simple.

I am of no doubt that unions use this to their advantage, but to imply the TOCs are happy to go along with it?

 

[Barn]

I'm not quite sure how we have ended up discussing train driver wages (they are not the only staff on the railway!), but I don't think you are quite appreciative of the costs and time involved in training drivers, nor do you seem to be aware of how many people fail the pre-training tests.

I would imagine it'd be not dissimilar to the training costs / failure rate for becoming a police constable or army officer?

Another thing they have in common with train drivers is that plenty of people have an ambition to become one...