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Redevelopment Plans for Liverpool Street - Development Policy Going Backwards

takno

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o_O I am shocked to read you saying that? How come? I don't understand with home working and the costs of energy centre stage right now why would people want to go back to offices unless it was significantly cheasper than working from home.
Not everybody is being given the choice, and a lot of people enjoy the office anyway. Even where people could avoid the office, the cost of travel is increasingly having to be offset against the cost of heating homes for another 10 hours a day. It's far from a no grainer.

Fwiw, without any pressure for people to come in more than once a week, we are starting to struggle for space in our office. Loads of people are choosing to come in 3-4 days, and the people who don't want to do at least 2 are restricted pretty much to tech oddballs
 
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stonojnr

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On top!



It certainly needs it. It's one of my least favourite London termini, largely because it's usually overcrowded and full of clueless tourists waiting for the StanEx oblivious of them and their bags being in the way. Also the retail offering is very poor. Yes, the (replica) roof looks nice, but it's a bit Euston "classic" Great Hall vs what's there now - the old Great Hall looked amazing, but it was too small and the platforms were too short, so today's station is objectively better.

Ive always felt Euston was the worst,its dark,you are completely seperated from the trains, and I dont go to a railway station to go shopping, I go to get on a train home, and maybe grab a quick bite to eat/something to drink, Euston invariably feels like the lets hurry up and get out of here terminus, at least Liverpool St feels airy & light on the main concourse, the platforms can be a different matter especially down the country end, but thats the result of buildings on top of the station blocking out most of the light.

But Liverpool st for years had lots of shops, 2 WH Smiths, Boots, mobile phone shops, clothes shops, and perma rotation on those small shops on the upper deck, because they nearly always closed down because there just isnt the demand for it there, its city London commuters, its why there arent lashings of shops opening up around that area, people just want to turn up and leave, even bars, only the Wetherspoons has made it work in the station, Fullers were supposed to be opening a bar abit like the Parcel Yard in the old post room, but it came to naught.

So how theyll create a concourse 5 times bigger I dont know where theyll find the space and I dont think wrecking whats left of the hotel (I always remember it facing into the station with the staircases before the big change in the 80s and could never work out where everything went afterwards) though Im sure McDonalds will find another location, is the answer.
 

stuu

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o_O I am shocked to read you saying that? How come? I don't understand with home working and the costs of energy centre stage right now why would people want to go back to offices unless it was significantly cheasper than working from home.
Anecdotally, businesses are reducing how much space they have which means they can afford better locations, and better facilities as Bald Rick mentions above
 

WesternBiker

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Anecdotally, businesses are reducing how much space they have which means they can afford better locations, and better facilities as Bald Rick mentions above
Agreed. And central London has an awful lot of substandard office accommodation (I should know – I had to suffer working in one in until last year). New methods of working will demand more flexible space, with much better IT provision.

I would guess financial institutions in the City already have decent offices for the most part, but there are a lot of other organisations and service companies whose offices no longer meet their needs.
 

trebor79

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So how theyll create a concourse 5 times bigger I dont know where theyll find the space and I dont think wrecking whats left of the hotel (I always remember it facing into the station with the staircases before the big change in the 80s and could never work out where everything went afterwards) though Im sure McDonalds will find another location, is the answer.
I think some parts of the hotel interior are original still? Clearly the McDonalds area isn't, but there is a very ornate plaster ceiling the W H Smiths at concourse level. Unless that's more pastiche?
 

Taunton

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Agreed. And central London has an awful lot of substandard office accommodation (I should know – I had to suffer working in one in until last year). New methods of working will demand more flexible space, with much better IT provision.
This one has passed us by. You don't need "better IT provision" in a building structure any more, because the IT industry has developed miniaturisation, wireless working and lesser power demands to the stage that the building fabric no longer matters.

Euston is of course the ultimate example of an oversite development that never happened - if you have ever been up on the deck over the platforms you will appreciate what a waste of space it all is. Originally conceived as a major office development which could "fund" the rebuilding of the station, it was forced to be abandoned, when part built, by the government who introduced policies of controlling office space in Central London - a form of "levelling up" which has long been around. Of course, there were other non-railway major office developments which managed to get done at the same time - Centre Point being a classic example, built at the same time, 1963-66. The BR Property Board didn't have the ability (or, being nationalised, the ownership backing) to achieve this.

One thing to bear in mind is that mainstream property developers are a commercially brilliant bunch, long skilled at ending up contributing far less to the station rebuilding costs than anyone at the negotiations stage thought possible. They are of course selling office space to clients, not particularly concerned about any railway function underneath which does not impact their main business. Plus, overall, it is surprising how the "vast profits" for the developers do not particularly exist, and the how costs of a station rebuilding their development is meant to fund are invariably way beyond what they have been willing to pay for the rights. There is no free lunch in this world, for either party.
 

WesternBiker

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This one has passed us by. You don't need "better IT provision" in a building structure any more, because the IT industry has developed miniaturisation, wireless working and lesser power demands to the stage that the building fabric no longer matters.
It depends on what you mean by "better IT provision" - and I was referring to new methods of working (i.e. not necessarily building works). In the case of my office (central London, 700 staff) on the IT front that has meant sufficient wireless provision for visitors (ensuring a signal in all areas), the installation of docking points for permanent staff to facilitate hot desking, and replacing desktops and screens with laptops for all staff. In structural terms it has meant reconfiguring the office to enable a new mix of hot-desking, small private spaces where people can have conversations without disturbing others, and meeting rooms for the one day a week when people come in for physical meetings.
 
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fandroid

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Just some thoughts about "pastiche" and "replica" architecture.

I believe that a well crafted replica, that includes all the decorative detail of the original is actually a tribute to the quality of the architecture of the original. And is preserves the quality that was there before. Liverpool Street is probably a good example.
Pastiche is where an attempt is made to "reflect" the original, but is just an excuse for building something cheaper. The worst pastiche is where a few decorative plastic baubles have been added to a cheap and nasty replacement.

Having travelled a lot in Germany I've had a chance to observe the buildings that replaced those list in WW2. The ones that really work are where proper replicas have been lovingly created in a whole area. There is pastiche too, as well as piecemeal replica building. Neither work as well
 

stuu

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This one has passed us by. You don't need "better IT provision" in a building structure any more, because the IT industry has developed miniaturisation, wireless working and lesser power demands to the stage that the building fabric no longer matters.
I have seen the risers and the ducting in my office (brand new, opened 2018), there is still an extraordinary amount of cabling involved. I would bet very good money that fitting in new IT infrastructure is still a very big issue. Every desk in my company's office at Canary Wharf (opened 2016) has an ethernet connection and power, even all the fancy hot-desk ones that client's get shown. Of course the building fabric still matters
 

Olaf

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The proposed developments related to the Adanz Hotel and 50 Liverpool Street - they did not impinge upon the roof. The proposals were made by a JV with MTR as a partner. I should add that it is possible that the proposals will not be progressed post-COVID impact.
 
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stratford

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Render below which shows the extent of the demolished concourse (essentially everything up to the tracks) and replacement with a double deck concourse.

No idea why they feel a double deck concourse is better here, making the main concourse the exact opposite of what it is currently with low ceilings rather than looking up to the roof and large screens.
Liverpool-Street-upgraded-concourse-%C2%A9Herzog-de-Meuron-resize-2-1200x828.jpg
 

HamworthyGoods

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No idea why they feel a double deck concourse is better here, making the main concourse the exact opposite of what it is currently with low ceilings rather than looking up to the roof and large screens.

Because it provides additional retail space which brings in extra income, something they railway could well do with at this present time!
 

Wolfie

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I'm struggling to post the article in the Telegraph on 6 Oct 22 where Griff Rhys Jones - speaking for the Victorian Society - is utterly damning of this proposed development and how the developers have gone about things thus far
 

yorksrob

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The concourse and the "McDonald's building" (doesn't contain a McD any more) are replicas.

If the MacDonalds building is a replica, it's a very good one. It's clearly designed to replicate the almost identical building that existed in that location previously. It puts me in mind of the European cities that were rebuilt identically after WW2. You clearly wouldn't want to destroy those either, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered replicating them. The other frontage building next to it is the old hotel I understand.
 

SynthD

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The telegraph article, with an archived copy here. https://archive.ph/QAHNe
Conservationists are opposing a “grotesque” £1.5bn plan to build a 16-storey tower block above London’s Liverpool Street station.
Sellar, which developed the Shard skyscraper, said its redevelopment will deliver a “cost-free” upgrade to the capital's third-busiest train station.
Conservationists fear the redesign could risk the glass roof of the Grade II listed station — which dates back to 1874 — and neighbouring Andaz hotel, formerly known as Great Eastern railway hotel.
Liverpool Street, in the heart of the City of London, is closed to traffic other than taxis. Sellar’s plans include the road being pedestrianised and parts of the gothic buildings on the street demolished.
Some £450m would be set aside to improve the train terminus as part of the development works over and around the station. Changes include a two-storey concourse as well as step-free access for the London Underground.

It will also help ease congestion as the final stages of Crossrail, or the Elizabeth Line, are completed. The line has a station at Liverpool Street.

James Sellar, chief executive at Sellar, said: “Our vision to significantly upgrade Liverpool Street station will alleviate its chronic overcapacity issues and future-proof it for generations at zero cost to the tax or fare payer.”

But a row is already brewing as plans are officially released on Thursday. A formal planning application will be made next year with works scheduled to start at the beginning of 2024.

Developers say they will “sensitively restore” the listed facade of the Andaz hotel.

The Victorian Society has appealed to Historic England, which is giving “pre-application advice” to the developer, to upgrade the station’s listed status to provide greater protection from being altered.
Victorian Society Director Joe O’Donnell said: "It is extremely disappointing that a proposed redevelopment of a major Victorian station has got this far without speaking to the Victorian Society - especially where a public body such as Network Rail is involved.

"It is unclear how much of the listed building will be lost or how many stories will be built on top of the concourse. Given Sellar’s previous developments of the Paddington Cube and the Shard, this development is likely to overwhelm the listed building.
"The few images provided hint at the sky above the concourse being totally blocked out by a view of a new tower. If, as seems likely, that this scheme will be extremely harmful to the listed building and surrounding conservation area, we will fight it.
"We successfully supported a public inquiry in 1975 against the station’s demolition which resulted in the sensitive scheme that we have today. We are launching a fund to fight this at public inquiry again, if need be."
Robin Dobson, group property director at Network Rail, the public body that owns Liverpool Street station, said: “The plans would transform Liverpool Street station into an exciting mixed-use destination in its own right, whilst sensitively restoring and showcasing the station’s heritage architecture.”
 

yorksrob

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So it looks as though my original post wasn't an overreaction after all. There are concerns from knowledgeable parties as well.

(I'm currently going "ah ha" and wagging my finger).
 

trebor79

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Because it provides additional retail space which brings in extra income, something they railway could well do with at this present time!
There are empty units as it is though. Although I accept the ones one the west/north side are very poorly located for footfall, the Fullers pub near the Bishopsgate entrance has been "coming soon" for years.
 

stratford

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Because it provides additional retail space which brings in extra income, something they railway could well do with at this present time!
Though the current render shows the removal of all the retail units above the current gate line and along it.
 

fandroid

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The construction press is covering this. Apparently the old Great Eastern Hotel will be "sensitively restored" with the grand rooms available for public use. There will be a public consultation exhibition within the Andaz hotel on 21-23 November with a view to a planning application in 2023
 

WesternBiker

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Render below which shows the extent of the demolished concourse (essentially everything up to the tracks) and replacement with a double deck concourse.

No idea why they feel a double deck concourse is better here, making the main concourse the exact opposite of what it is currently with low ceilings rather than looking up to the roof and large screens.
Liverpool-Street-upgraded-concourse-%C2%A9Herzog-de-Meuron-resize-2-1200x828.jpg
I’m struggling to understand what is proposed even from this picture: why does the current concourse roof need to go (a second level could surely be inserted without replacing it)?

The replacement looks horrible and not at all in keeping, whereas the current one really complements the original trainshed.
 

306024

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No, it has indeed gone. I was surprised too, and miffed because I couldn't get a McFlurry and a cheap coffee!

Eh? Are we talking about the McDonalds by the big Kindertransport statue? That was very much open as I passed through tonight.

Infact around 18.00 tonight Liverpool St was very busy, but working as it should. The key is to maximise platform occupancy so passengers can board a train without hanging around the concourse.
 

py_megapixel

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Render below which shows the extent of the demolished concourse (essentially everything up to the tracks) and replacement with a double deck concourse.

No idea why they feel a double deck concourse is better here, making the main concourse the exact opposite of what it is currently with low ceilings rather than looking up to the roof and large screens.
Is that one of Nederlandse Spoorwegen's Sprinter EMUs in the bottom right?
 

Bald Rick

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Eh? Are we talking about the McDonalds by the big Kindertransport statue? That was very much open as I passed through tonight.

Infact around 18.00 tonight Liverpool St was very busy, but working as it should. The key is to maximise platform occupancy so passengers can board a train without hanging around the concourse.

That Mcs used to be the busiest in the country weekdays. Not sure if it still is.
 

306024

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That Mcs used to be the busiest in the country weekdays. Not sure if it still is.
I wouldn't know, they are on my same list as Wetherspoons and Ryanair ;)

But many retail outlets at Liverpool St pre covid were busy with people who had no intention of catching a train.
 

Wolfie

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That Mcs used to be the busiest in the country weekdays. Not sure if it still is.
There was an article in the Mirror earlier this week, about a singing manager in there, which said that it still was.
 

Bald Rick

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I wouldn't know, they are on my same list as Wetherspoons and Ryanair ;)

But many retail outlets at Liverpool St pre covid were busy with people who had no intention of catching a train.

we have a similar list, but Mcs isn’t on it. Whilst on the subject, the Wetherspooms used to be the one with the highest turnover in the country.
 

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