Reduced capacity at Wembley stadium due to engineering works - has anything like this happened before?

[Harpo]

That's not unprecedented: the 2011, 2021 and 2022 matches were all away from Wembley.

But nearly all of the 20k Southend fans with tickets will want the match to be at Wembley, not somewhere else.

Southend took 20k fans to Cardiff for the LDV vans (English Football League Trophy) final in 2005.

One of their special trains (returning home via Nuneaton!) formed of cl67-load 13-cl67 stalled on the Lickey on the way back.

 

[Magdalia]

Southend took 20k fans to Cardiff for the LDV vans (English Football League Trophy) final in 2005.

And there will be quite a few wanting tickets for Sunday that have not watched Southend since then!

2005 was during the period when Wembley was being rebuilt and most big finals were in Cardiff.

The National League/Conference Premier final was first played at Wembley in 2007, after the new stadium opened.

 

[yorkie]

And there will be quite a few wanting tickets for Sunday that have not watched Southend since then!

I don't want to sound too harsh, but ... so what? It's a special occasion. Do people have to attend Taylor Swift events regularly to be deserving of attending her concert at Wembley?

 

[Magdalia]

I don't want to sound too harsh, but ... so what? It's a special occasion. Do people have to attend Taylor Swift events regularly to be deserving of attending her concert at Wembley?

That isn't a valid comparison, because fandom in football and music are very different.

There are probably more people who watch most of Southend's football matches, than people who watch most of Taylor Swift's concerts.

On the other hand, there are a lot more people who watch Taylor Swift once per tour than there are Southend bandwagon jumpers who ignore the team for 20 years but still expect to get a ticket for a big final.

Music fans don't have the misplaced sense of entitlement that because they went in 2005 they should be able to go now. Taylor Swift fans know that demand is going to exceed supply. Similar examples are the annual ruck for tickets for Glastonbury or the dynamic pricing of the Oasis reunion.

Oasis fans don't expect to get a ticket for the reunion just because they saw them in the upstairs room of a pub 30 years ago.

 

[zwk500]

Is engineering work not done in the 'depths of winter'. I'm not really sure what your point is that you're making? I get it needs to be done but just not during Wembley stadiums busy time of the year, surely you can see that and the consternation it's causing?

It is, but there are various reasons why work might need to be done 6 months later. Not just practicalities about longer light periods and warmer temperatures, but also factors such as the wear and tear and when parts can be replaced.

If this work is part of a wider project then it may also need other works to be complete before it can be done, and if those works were being done in winter and this is the next opportunity...

Last week was the FA Cup final, this weekend is the EFL play off final weekend, next week is the Nationsl League Play Off final, England have 2 home games in the coming weeks and no doubt a summer programme of concerts, so yes, I would say it's a busy period for Wembley, these finals happen every year and I'm sure they book in lots of concerts too.

I agree, the FA Cup final marks the start (more or less) of Wembley's summer season. It's not unreasonable that LU need to do a bit of maintenance now to avoid failures impacting the nearly 100,000 that will be attending many of those concerts all through the summer.

It is unusual but in effect they are punishing the good people of Southend, although one has to ask where these people are week in week in out if they are so keen on being a Southend fan!!! I guess it's same with any final though, it depends on the teams, if 2 low key teams reached the FA Cup final and only sold 25k tickets each, would there be a similar situation?

I personally don't have an issue with fans that only make the effort for a final, there are plenty of reasons why fans might not be able to attend games regularly, such as if they've moved out of the area for any reason.

Engineering work prioritised over fan attendance?

Again, the engineering work has been planned to affect the expected lowest crowd of this run of games. The two competing teams were only confirmed on 21 May, and it could easily have been York City vs Forest Green Rovers, where 20,000 tickets each would likely have been plentiful supply.

 

[yorkie]

That isn't a valid comparison, because fandom in football and music are very different.

Who gets to decide that someone can't attend a big football match, on the basis they are undeserving? Do you have a list of events which need to be dismissed as not worthy of attendance by non-regulars, and what criteria you use to decide this?

There are probably more people who watch most of Southend's football matches, than people who watch most of Taylor Swift's concerts.

But who are any of us to decide someone can't attend an event on that basis?

On the other hand, there are a lot more people who watch Taylor Swift once per tour than there are Southend bandwagon jumpers who ignore the team for 20 years but still expect to get a ticket for a big final.

Aren't Taylor Swift fans bandwagon jumpers? Who gets to decide which events need to be exclusively attended by regular attendees and which events can be attended by anyone?

How would you enforce this, and would you exclude the children, parents, siblings and other relatives of season ticket holders?

I've taken about 50 young people to watch football matches this season; as their parents don't regularly take them, do they count as being bandwagon jumpers in your opinion?

I would be interested to hear your definition of a bandwagon jumper; however I suspect you won't provide one

Music fans don't have the misplaced sense of entitlement that because they went in 2005 they should be able to go now.

How do you define sense of entitlement, how do you measure it, how do you determine if it's misplaced or not?

You are keen to point out differences where it suits your agenda, but not where it doesn't; it's reasonable for someone from Southend to expect to be able to attend a Wembley final, given the capacity and that relatively few neutral fans are going to want tickets.

There obviously isn't the same expectation for a Taylor Swift concert, which has a broader geographic appeal.

Taylor Swift fans know that demand is going to exceed supply. Similar examples are the annual ruck for tickets for Glastonbury or the dynamic pricing of the Oasis reunion.

But you can't pick and choose like that, you can't use this as justification for denying supporters tickets and then admit that the exceptions are obviously going to be different. Which is it?

Oasis fans don't expect to get a ticket for the reunion just because they saw them in the upstairs room of a pub 30 years ago.

This is a straw man argument.

It's absolutely reasonable for people to have an expectation to see their local team play at Wembley in the circumstances described in this thread.

The only reason why people are being denied is because the people who chose this date did so on the basis of that at least one of the small clubs like Forest Green, Solihull Moors etc reaching the final.

However it was entirely foreseeable that big clubs such as Oldham and Southend would reach the final and that they would take huge numbers.

I had a look at the Wembley stadium event list and identified several weekends where it looks like they could have planned to do the work instead.

 

[spyinthesky]

Who gets to decide that someone can't attend a big football match, on the basis they are undeserving?

Essentially the club does.
If the season ticket holders buy all of their allocation of 5 tickets there won’t be any left for general sale which then in turn means the season ticket holders decide.

 

[SteveHFC]

Engineering work prioritised over fan attendance?

So a major signalling upgrade should be delayed at short notice (given we only knew a few days ago who the finalists would be) because the number of people who want to go to a football match is higher than anticipated?

 

[Magdalia]

I would be interested to hear your definition of a bandwagon jumper; however I suspect you won't provide one

In this case, someone who has never been to a Southend game before, or hasn't been since the Cardiff final in 2005.

But who are any of us to decide someone can't attend an event on that basis?

It is decided by supply and demand. If demand exceeds supply, then not everyone is going to be able to attend.

Usually demand is managed through price, queue, lottery or a mixture of these.

I've taken about 50 young people to watch football matches this season; as their parents don't regularly take them, do they count as being bandwagon jumpers in your opinion?

No, people who have been to a match this season are not bandwagon jumpers.

One thing that makes football an unusual example here in that most football clubs recognise and reward loyalty, for example giving preferential treatment to season ticket holders and people who join membership schemes. It is this that makes the comparison with music invalid, while some performers may have fan clubs and loyalty schemes, it is nowhere near as prevalent as football.

The club would be able to find a way of giving young people priority, and are likely to do so, because they are the potential season ticket holders of the future.

It's absolutely reasonable for people to have an expectation to see their local team play at Wembley in the circumstances described in this thread.

The only reason why people are being denied is because the people who chose this date did so on the basis of that at least one of the small clubs like Forest Green, Solihull Moors etc reaching the final.

However it was entirely foreseeable that big clubs such as Oldham and Southend would reach the final and that they would take huge numbers.

The peculiar aspect of this is that superficially it looks like Wembley could increase ticket supply by opening the top deck of the stadium.

But the safety issues, both within and getting to and from Wembley, prevent that happening at short notice. We have gone through all of that above. That's why "people are being denied".

You are right that nobody knows which teams will be in a final until shortly before the event. But it was foreseeable that 2 well supported ex league teams could reach the final, and it would have been foreseen. Things won't have been planned on the assumption that at least one small club would reach the final, because about a third of the teams in the National League this season could be described as well supported ex league teams. That was known a year ago, after the 2024 promotions and relegations were decided.

History shows that, even when 2 well supported ex league teams reach the final, the numbers are not huge, and attendance is usually no more than about 40k. Perhaps the nearest comparison to Southend/Oldham is Luton/York in 2012, when the attendance was 39215.

The one exceptional case is the Bristol Rovers/Grimsby final in 2015, it would be interesting to know whether there were any late decisions to open more of the stadium in 2015 to accommodate the high demand for tickets.

 

[SuspectUsual]

If nothing else, this reminds us that building the new national stadium in Wembley was an absolutely stupid decision

 

[zwk500]

If nothing else, this reminds us that building the new national stadium in Wembley was an absolutely stupid decision

How often has this been a problem in the 18 years since the new Wembley has opened?

 

[The exile]

The actual point of all this is why, when there are huge chunks of the calendar year when the stadium is not in use for sporting events or music concerts would you schedule engineering work to be done at the stadiums busiest time when Wembley Park station is there, purposefully, to move large numbers of people to and from the stadium? To me you would schedule that work in or try to when the stadium is not in use? That seems a very logical thing to do?

More to the point, why is an event scheduled at the stadium when access will be poor?

 

[SuspectUsual]

How often has this been a problem in the 18 years since the new Wembley has opened?

The travel connectivity at Wembley, even when working as well as it possibly can, is rubbish compared to say a national stadium built next to the M6 / M42 / Birmingham airport / Birmingham International

 

[zwk500]

The travel connectivity at Wembley, even when working as well as it possibly can, is rubbish compared to say a national stadium built next to the M6 / M42 / Birmingham airport / Birmingham International

90,000 people being funnelled through Birmingham International for all rail connections or dumped on to an extremely busy section of the motorway network would seem to be no better than the current situation at Wembley.

 

[SuspectUsual]

90,000 people being funnelled through Birmingham International for all rail connections or dumped on to an extremely busy section of the motorway network would seem to be no better than the current situation at Wembley.

Thanks for making my argument for me

A national stadium on the outskirts of Birmingham wouldn't have to get 90,000 people in and out via public transport would it?

 

[zwk500]

Thanks for making my argument for me

A national stadium on the outskirts of Birmingham wouldn't have to get 90,000 people in and out via public transport would it?

You've completely missed my point. If enough people drove to make the public transport demand tolerable, the traffic management for the local motorway network would be extremely disruptive. Like, closing the M6 and M42 levels of disruption.
The likelihood is, of course, that enough people would both drive and travel by public transport so it'd have overloaded a critical node on both transport networks instead of making a busy part of London really busy.

 

[sprunt]

The public is a lot more than a bunch of football fans, the people who use and rely on the railways every day are far more important than those wanting to go to a one-off sporting event that they can watch on their telly instead. Engineering work is essential to keep the service running, if it clashes with a football match then tough.

It's a good job that I didn't suggest that nobody ever does any engineering work then, isn't it?

That this match was happening is entirely predictable, that there could be this level of demand for this particular match that happens every year is possible and precedented.

The engineering works should be planned so that public transport access to Wembley Stadium is maintained throughout the time of year when the stadium is the most heavily used.

To say "tough" when it isn't it contemptuous of the people whose tax is used to make the existence of the transport service possible.

 

[AndyHudds]

So a major signalling upgrade should be delayed at short notice (given we only knew a few days ago who the finalists would be) because the number of people who want to go to a football match is higher than anticipated?

It would be interesting to know which was booked in first, the final or the engineering work? I'm not sure whether the National League block book 5 years finals in advance say or whether they do it year by year. Irrespective of whether they know which clubs are participating in the final, the final will have booked well in advance. I guess you don't follow football or support a club?

 

[87015]

It would be interesting to know which was booked in first, the final or the engineering work? I'm not sure whether the National League block book 5 years finals in advance say or whether they do it year by year. Irrespective of whether they know which clubs are participating in the final, the final will have booked well in advance. I guess you don't follow football or support a club?

At the start of this year the FA/Wembley/Football were saying this final was on the Saturday not the Sunday.

 

[najaB]

I had a look at the Wembley stadium event list and identified several weekends where it looks like they could have planned to do the work instead.

Did you also happen to see what other work is in their program and how they interface with other work packages in terms of resources and manpower?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Just for some context from a railway perspective, this resignalling date has been in my diary for around 18 months at this stage. A little earlier than it would have been for most off public timelines, but that's by the by. It will have been in more senior folk's diaries for longer.

The next window to complete this section of resignalling (because it's far more drawn out than bumping it by a week, given the number of lines affected, the involvement of a small army of technical staff, some of whom are contractors, and the need to avoid works on other lines) is towards the end of the year. Why should hundreds of thousands of generally passengers be put out by delaying an already late resignalling project for the sake of a few tens of thousands...?

In life there are always winners and there are always losers. This is one of those situations. Unfortunately a relatively small number of people will have to bear some pain.

(And just to be clear, the chances of this work being deferred are approximately 0 at this stage.)

 

[Bald Rick]

Southend are claiming that they can sell 30k tickets....

Wow. That’s rather more than their travelling support was when they were in the second tier .. a few hundred at most! (Accepting this is a rather different gsme than getting hammered 5-0 at Molineux on a wet Tuesday night).

 

[Egg Centric]

Just for some context from a railway perspective, this resignalling date has been in my diary for around 18 months at this stage. A little earlier than it would have been for most off public timelines, but that's by the by. It will have been in more senior folk's diaries for longer.

The next window to complete this section of resignalling (because it's far more drawn out than bumping it by a week, given the number of lines affected, the involvement of a small army of technical staff, some of whom are contractors, and the need to avoid works on other lines) is towards the end of the year. Why should hundreds of thousands of generally passengers be put out by delaying an already late resignalling project for the sake of a few tens of thousands...?

In life there are always winners and there are always losers. This is one of those situations. Unfortunately a relatively small number of people will have to bear some pain.

(And just to be clear, the chances of this work being deferred are approximately 0 at this stage.)

This is genuinely useful context, thanks. No one in this thread so far has really mentioned the lead times yet and they're longer than I thought.

Nevertheless I still believe this is very much doable if the clubs *really* wanted it (not through the met obv). Fact is they don't want it enough to pay for it. If my coach idea wouldn't work because of capacity (unclear - no one's given the numbers) then e.g. a tent city or similar could have been offered with travel not permitted in/out a few hours either side of them game (enforced using my refundable deposit scheme). I don't think many would actually take this offer up - but at least it would be there for those who really, really, really wanted it (which to be clear my suggestions are - a thought experiment to show how it could be done rather than a policy proposal).

 

[danchester]

Just for some context from a railway perspective, this resignalling date has been in my diary for around 18 months at this stage. A little earlier than it would have been for most off public timelines, but that's by the by. It will have been in more senior folk's diaries for longer.

That's what I expected, so I was surprised when the National League's statement said this:

Wembley Stadium has been the confirmed venue for this season’s Promotion Final since last year, long before the planned closure of Wembley Park station was announced.

Is it really possible that they wouldn't have known? It feels like someone has to be lying here. (My money's on the league, who almost certainly will have brushed aside any concerns about capacity restrictions on the assumption that they wouldn't usually matter at this level...)

 

[DarloRich]

Who gets to decide that someone can't attend a big football match, on the basis they are undeserving?

Me. I get to judge.

We all know a plastic when we see one and we judge them accordingly. Obviously, the plastics may consider themselves a real fan but us real fans know the truth. Real fans don't just turn up for Wembley they attend ( insert really difficult Tuesday night away game here) and those that don't attend ( insert really difficult Tuesday night away game here) are judged accordingly.

You have to earn real fan points by showing up for the bad times to earn credit to attend in the good times. Only 15? tough. Only 45? beginner. Never saw ( insert name of aged cult player from 1962 here) play: Part timer. Been going 62 years? Pah. Old Tommy has been going 76.

That's how it works. We all know how it works. It has always worked that way

 

[SuspectUsual]

Me. I get to judge.

We all know a plastic when we see one and we judge them accordingly. Obviously, the plastics may consider themselves a real fan but us real fans know the truth. Real fans don't just turn up for Wembley they attend ( insert really difficult Tuesday night away game here) and those that don't attend ( insert really difficult Tuesday night away game here) are judged accordingly.

You have to earn real fan points by showing up for the bad times to earn credit to attend in the good times. Only 15? tough. Only 45? beginner. Never saw ( insert name of aged cult player from 1962 here) play: Part timer. Been going 62 years? Pah. Old Tommy has been going 76.

That's how it works. We all know how it works. It has always worked that way

How many points do I get for staying to the bitter end of Halifax losing 7-0 away at Macclesfield, on a freezing cold day, in the driving rain, in an uncovered away end?

 

[DarloRich]

How many points do I get for staying to the bitter end of Halifax losing 7-0 away at Macclesfield, on a freezing cold day, in the driving rain, in an uncovered away end?

that is the kind of thing that gets you good points!

 

[spyinthesky]

that is the kind of thing that gets you good points!

Only if you managed to get a half and half scarf too!

 

[Magdalia]

Only if you managed to get a half and half scarf too!

Half and half scarves are -100 points, only worn by plastics.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Only if you managed to get a half and half scarf too!

Half and half scarves are -100 points, only worn by plastics.

Indeed, they are like a big red flashing light on top of your head alerting anyone in the vicinity that you're not a genuine fan. In fact, I'd make it a lifetime stadium ban, not just -100 points