Reduced frequency of Cross-Country services from Bournemouth to Manchester?

[43055]

Personally I'd bin the Penzance stuff, even though it is fairly well used, for now at least if it meant we could have additional 8 or 9 car trains north of Plymouth. 4 and 5 car trains on many services simply won't cut it, especially May to September and all school holiday times. XC travel is about to get a whole lot more grim.......

Other than the daytime Sunday one the other Penzance extensions would otherwise just go onto Laira.

From what I can see the following will be double sets on weekdays as they split/join during the day. Hopefully there are others:
0620 Plymouth - Edinburgh might detach at Bristol for the 0900 to Manchester?

0628 Penzance - Edinburgh from Plymouth
1807 Edinburgh - Birmingham

0543 Leeds - Edinburgh
1003 Edinburgh - Penzance until Plymouth

0703 Birmingham - Edinburgh
1305 Edinburgh - Plymouth until Gloucester

0635 Bristol - Edinburgh
1403 Edinburgh - Plymouth until Bristol

 

[cactustwirly]

Surely not much more grim than it was pre-Covid. Whilst the loss of the HSTs is symbolic of everything that's wrong with the DfT's penny wise pound foolish attitude, XC has long been a grim way to travel.

Well the HSTs are high capacity and allowed doubling up of some voyager sets.

Now we have every train running as a single set, and since XC has mostly 4 car voyagers it doesn't take Einstein to work out how busy these trains will be

The Bournemouth to Manchester route is more of a short hop route in many ways , which is why I'd hope it will take more 4 cars and the 5s go to the SW to NE, although I don't expect that to be the case. Standing from Oxford to Banbury, or Wolves to Stoke is not quite in the same league as Exeter to Birmingham. Though i do accept there are still plenty of longer trips on this route, which makes this whole XC mess all the worse. Bransons folly really coming home to roost , for a second time.


I guess the problem is its fresh air during the day time and busy in the peaks. And this is considered acceptable. Yet on XC the trains are busy all day long.

They're standing all the way from Southampton to Birmingham unless you are lucky enough to get a double set

 

[irish_rail]

Other than the daytime Sunday one the other Penzance extensions would otherwise just go onto Laira.

From what I can see the following will be double sets on weekdays as they split/join during the day. Hopefully there are others:
0620 Plymouth - Edinburgh might detach at Bristol for the 0900 to Manchester?

0628 Penzance - Edinburgh from Plymouth
1807 Edinburgh - Birmingham

0543 Leeds - Edinburgh
1003 Edinburgh - Penzance until Plymouth

0703 Birmingham - Edinburgh
1305 Edinburgh - Plymouth until Gloucester

0635 Bristol - Edinburgh
1403 Edinburgh - Plymouth until Bristol

So between Bristol and Plymouth just one daily train each way that will be more than a 5 car. Forgive me for not getting too excited. Its a 2 hour trip, many are doing the whole way. Those joining at Bristol simply won't have a chance of a seat. And that's just one flow. The entire PZ to Edinburgh route looks a mess going forward.

 

[cactustwirly]

So between Bristol and Plymouth just one daily train each way that will be more than a 5 car. Forgive me for not getting too excited. Its a 2 hour trip, many are doing the whole way. Those joining at Bristol simply won't have a chance of a seat. And that's just one flow. The entire PZ to Edinburgh route looks a mess going forward.

The whole of XC looks like an excrement show going forward.

I don't know why anyone would willingly pay their disgusting fares to end up wedged for hours on their awful trains. You'd have to be desperate to travel by train

 

[irish_rail]

The whole of XC looks like an excrement show going forward.

I don't know why anyone would willingly pay their disgusting fares to end up wedged for hours on their awful trains. You'd have to be desperate to travel by train

I guess those without a car who have a fear of flying! Anyone else will soon be lost to rail!!!

 

[py_megapixel]

I guess those without a car who have a fear of flying! Anyone else will soon be lost to rail!!!

To be fair, passing through an airport is generally a tedious and uncivilised experience, and I think most people would rather not do this for a relatively short domestic journey.

That said, the small regional airports are probably the better ones in general - and travelling on XC is pretty uncivilised.

 

[yorksrob]

As noted in another thread CrossCountry believe that they can "run a more efficient service that also reflects the way people are now travelling for business and leisure" from May which "requires fewer trains to deliver the number of seats customers need at present."

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crosscountry-hst-diagrams.176519/page-40#post-6102215

Meaningless flannel to cover the impending rolling stock cuts.

 

[Iskra]

The whole of XC looks like an excrement show going forward.

I don't know why anyone would willingly pay their disgusting fares to end up wedged for hours on their awful trains. You'd have to be desperate to travel by train

Because an XC 4/5 carriage train is an improvement on a Northern 2 car train…

Is the Newcastle-Reading coming back at all in greater frequency? At least that would relieve the Sheffield-Leeds section again by taking some York/Newcastle passenger off it.

Recent XC journeys have been awful. I’m now categorising them in the ‘not fit for purpose’ box along with TP.

 

[cactustwirly]

To be fair, passing through an airport is generally a tedious and uncivilised experience, and I think most people would rather not do this for a relatively short domestic journey.

That said, the small regional airports are probably the better ones in general - and travelling on XC is pretty uncivilised.

But at least you are guaranteed a seat on a plane...

 

[JonathanH]

But at least you are guaranteed a seat on a plane...

...and can't travel if it is sold out. Not many people want compulsory reservations to be the answer on the railway.

 

[irish_rail]

If XC were to curtail the Reading to Newcastle into Reading to York, would that provide enough sets to extend the Bristol to Manchester to Exeter instead. That would then provide actual decent connections on to the greater south west. Running the voyager under the wires from York to Newcastle seems wasteful in the extreme when there are God knows how many trains per hour already running on that route for passengers to change onto at York. Surely it would be like for like in terms of units needed as Bristol to Exeter is actually less time than York to Newcastle.

 

[Llandudno]

If XC were to curtail the Reading to Newcastle into Reading to York, would that provide enough sets to extend the Bristol to Manchester to Exeter instead. That would then provide actual decent connections on to the greater south west. Running the voyager under the wires from York to Newcastle seems wasteful in the extreme when there are God knows how many trains per hour already running on that route for passengers to change onto at York. Surely it would be like for like in terms of units needed as Bristol to Exeter is actually less time than York to Newcastle.

Terminating at York could be a decent option, but TransPennine seem incapable of running many trains north of York, or even west or east of it either!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Terminating at York could be a decent option, but TransPennine seem incapable of running many trains north of York, or even west or east of it either!

True, but LNER does operate 2tph.

If DfT won't let XC have extra units, then the only sensible answer does appear to be to retrench further to ensure capacity on the core. As you say not running north of York is one option, as is removing all the occasional extensions (stuff like the Penzance-Aberdeen) and just running the regular interval core, i.e. Plymouth-York, Manchester-Reading and Manchester-Bristol (I think I've got that right) plus the 170 services.

 

[Llandudno]

We have numerous trunk routes throughout the country which can’t cope with current demand, which in turn is deterring thousands of new long distance customers from travelling by rail, yet we are using huge financial resources running basket cases like:

Barton on Humber Line
Conwy Valley
Heart of Wales line
Nunthorpe - Whitby
Far North Line
Girvan - Stranraer
Hourly service Barrow-Whitehaven

Not that I wish to see the above routes closed, but it cash is tight…!

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have numerous trunk routes throughout the country which can’t cope with current demand, which in turn is deterring thousands of new long distance customers from travelling by rail, yet we are using huge financial resources running basket cases like:

No, we're not. They may not be worthwhile cost (one for another thread) but you might manage to lease one more Voyager if you closed the Barton line, say. While cutting the service in the middle bit of the Cumbrian Coast back to two-hourly would probably get you half a one, the line can't close as it's needed for Sellafield and some of it is in marginal time (i.e. turnarounds that would be required for two terminating services).

The Conwy Valley, Far North and Girvan-Stranraer are irrevant as they are devolved matters. XC is an English TOC.

I think there's a lot of suppressed demand on XC anyway, there clearly was on TPE (and it's being suppressed again by unreliability at present ).

 

[Watershed]

True, but LNER does operate 2tph.

If DfT won't let XC have extra units, then the only sensible answer does appear to be to retrench further to ensure capacity on the core. As you say not running north of York is one option, as is removing all the occasional extensions (stuff like the Penzance-Aberdeen) and just running the regular interval core, i.e. Plymouth-York, Manchester-Reading and Manchester-Bristol (I think I've got that right) plus the 170 services.

The suggestion was for the Reading-Newcastle service to be curtailed to York. That does make some sense, even if - with it being much faster than the via Leeds service - it would worsen journey times from Newcastle to Birmingham etc.

XC provide a vital part of the capacity and frequency between Reading and Basingstoke/Southampton, plus they have a crew depot at Bournemouth (and stabling at Eastleigh) so it would make absolutely no sense to abandon south of Reading.

 

[yorksrob]

We have numerous trunk routes throughout the country which can’t cope with current demand, which in turn is deterring thousands of new long distance customers from travelling by rail, yet we are using huge financial resources running basket cases like:

Barton on Humber Line
Conwy Valley
Heart of Wales line
Nunthorpe - Whitby
Far North Line
Girvan - Stranraer
Hourly service Barrow-Whitehaven

Not that I wish to see the above routes closed, but it cash is tight…!

Robbing Peter to pay Paul I see.

Barrow - Whitehaven is in no way a basket case and well used by the locals. I see no reason why it should be picked out as such against the backdrop of the regional railway. Same goes for Whitby (although I may have pointed out my observations of that particular line before).

Let's not allow ourselves to get distracted by discussions about other unrelated lines (no doubt the Establishment would far rather we wasted our time pontificating about Stranrear, rather than scrutinizing what they are doing to the main line railway).

Be in no doubt, this about cuts to the InterCity fleet of rolling stock, to cut costs irrespective of whether such cuts will lead to a deterioration of the service. If the Government are worried about leasing costs, they should pass legislation to take ownership of these fleets at their depreciated value (given that they are 30+ years old) and enable TOC's to operate them for the cost of maintenance.

 

[nw1]

They're standing all the way from Southampton to Birmingham unless you are lucky enough to get a double set

Worse than it used to be, by the sounds of it. Oxford always used to be the "standing" point (the point when the train got silly full when heading north), so much so that I used to semi-regularly change at Banbury onto a Chiltern, even if that meant a Moor Street-New Street walk!

That or changing at Reading onto a Reading starter. They were always much more bearable.

We have numerous trunk routes throughout the country which can’t cope with current demand, which in turn is deterring thousands of new long distance customers from travelling by rail, yet we are using huge financial resources running basket cases like:

Barton on Humber Line
Conwy Valley
Heart of Wales line
Nunthorpe - Whitby
Far North Line
Girvan - Stranraer
Hourly service Barrow-Whitehaven

Not that I wish to see the above routes closed, but it cash is tight…!

And also, please let's not allow ourselves to be sucked into the scourge of short-termism. Close those lines, and unless the line has a special protection order placed on it to prevent development, they won't come back.

I wouldn't object so strongly if it was temporary withdrawal of the service for a couple of years, pending economically better times - with maintenance of the track continuing to take place. But complete closure?

I realise being careful with expenditure is very much the "in" political philosophy of the 2020s, but we need to realise the damage permanent closure will lead to.

As @yorksrob says it's not either/or. We need non-overcrowded XC services and rail services to the likes of Betws-y-Coed and Whitby!

 

[cactustwirly]

Worse than it used to be, by the sounds of it. Oxford always used to be the "standing" point (the point when the train got silly full when heading north), so much so that I used to semi-regularly change at Banbury onto a Chiltern, even if that meant a Moor Street-New Street walk!

That or changing at Reading onto a Reading starter. They were always much more bearable.



And also, please let's not allow ourselves to be sucked into the scourge of short-termism. Close those lines, and unless the line has a special protection order placed on it to prevent development, they won't come back.

I wouldn't object so strongly if it was temporary withdrawal of the service for a couple of years, pending economically better times - with maintenance of the track continuing to take place. But complete closure?

I realise being careful with expenditure is very much the "in" political philosophy of the 2020s, but we need to realise the damage permanent closure will lead to.

As @yorksrob says it's not either/or. We need non-overcrowded XC services and rail services to the likes of Betws-y-Coed and Whitby!

There's always full and standing services south of Reading whenever I've used XC.
I do believe there is a bit of a churn at Reading

 

[OrangeJuice]

There's always full and standing services south of Reading whenever I've used XC.
I do believe there is a bit of a churn at Reading

There is a lot of swap over at reading heading north, when I've used them, generally they seem equally busy north and south of reading as in standing. Worst I've seen is Sundays even with double sets.

 

[43055]

So between Bristol and Plymouth just one daily train each way that will be more than a 5 car. Forgive me for not getting too excited. Its a 2 hour trip, many are doing the whole way. Those joining at Bristol simply won't have a chance of a seat. And that's just one flow. The entire PZ to Edinburgh route looks a mess going forward.

These are just ones that I could easily identify due to splitting/joining. Hopefully there are more seeing as the Nottingham - Birmingham service is being reduced to hourly in May as well.

If XC were to curtail the Reading to Newcastle into Reading to York, would that provide enough sets to extend the Bristol to Manchester to Exeter instead. That would then provide actual decent connections on to the greater south west. Running the voyager under the wires from York to Newcastle seems wasteful in the extreme when there are God knows how many trains per hour already running on that route for passengers to change onto at York. Surely it would be like for like in terms of units needed as Bristol to Exeter is actually less time than York to Newcastle.

Terminating at York could be a decent option, but TransPennine seem incapable of running many trains north of York, or even west or east of it either!

One of the Newcastle - Reading services does accturally terminate at York. This being the 1145 Reading - York which forms the 1637 York - Reading.

 

[1018509]

Does the May timetable reinstate Brockenhurst as a regular XC stop?

 

[JonathanH]

Does the May timetable reinstate Brockenhurst as a regular XC stop?

Five trains a day call at Brockenhurst
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XC

 

[class68fan]

Five trains a day call at Brockenhurst
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XC

All cross county train used to stop their

 

[FenMan]

I caught the 1115 northbound XC departure at Reading on Saturday. A nine coach service that started from Bournemouth. It left Reading full and standing in my coach (and I was well away from the main scrum on the platform). I got off at Oxford, where huge numbers left the service amid equally huge numbers trying to get on.

It might be a good idea for the highly qualified experts from the DfT to take a breather from their spreadsheets to find out what is actually going on in the real world.

 

[Dr Day]

It might be a good idea for the highly qualified experts from the DfT to take a breather from their spreadsheets to find out what is actually going on in the real world.

The DfT/Treasury will probably be looking at costs and revenue, not loadings. Their objectives will, on behalf of the tax payer, probably be more around making the books balance better on a TOC-by-TOC basis rather than reducing overcrowding. If extra capacity didn't stack up financially pre-Covid when there was a stronger peak-fares business market, it is even less likely to stack up now carrying 'leisure' passengers at lower fares, however many of them there are on certain sections of the route.

I would hope the 'highly qualified experts' at the DfT are taking a more strategic view on total demand and capacity by corridor across all TOCs and potentially re-structuring who serves where so that scarce resources can be more optimally deployed. That may mean XC trimming back, which then generates complaints of 'we can't get a direct service from X to Y any more', so is a difficult balance, particularly if the direct service from X to Y, even if duplicates part of the route with someone else, actually generates a fair chunk of revenue for XC that they won't want to lose to another TOC.

 

[yorksrob]

I would hope the 'highly qualified experts' at the DfT are taking a more strategic view on total demand and capacity by corridor across all TOCs and potentially re-structuring who serves where so that scarce resources can be more optimally deployed.

Or maybe considering early retirement.

 

[1018509]

All cross county train used to stop their

..... and still should!!!!!

 

[Llandudno]

..... and still should!!!!!

and Chesterfield!

Only 50% of pre Covid XC trains calling at Chesterfield, the non stop trains then wait time, sometimes up to 10 minutes at either Sheffield or Derby owing to omitting Chesterfield!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

These are just ones that I could easily identify due to splitting/joining. Hopefully there are more seeing as the Nottingham - Birmingham service is being reduced to hourly in May as well.




One of the Newcastle - Reading services does accturally terminate at York. This being the 1145 Reading - York which forms the 1637 York - Reading.

That's on Saturdays. Weekdays it's a change at Birmingham New Street onto the 19:04 Bournemouth train (hopefully it won't be 4 coaches)!