Refund due to King's Cross closure

[BlackMonk]

Dear All

I August I bought a season ticket for travel between my home station and London King's Cross. There was no mention at the point of sale that I would be unable to use my ticket over the August bank holiday due to King's Cross being closed for engineering works. The first I knew about it was someone handing our leaflets outside my station. I often go into London and over the bank holiday weekend I had intended to go with my family to the Notting Hill Carnival.

I applied for a refund but my train company (Govia Thameslink) refused on the grounds they had advertised the closure well in advance. The trouble is I am a teacher and I do not commute into London over the summer. I would not seen any posters or read any announcements in newspapers. I would have had no reason to visit their website. I was also out the country for one week.

In addition to being unfair I do not believe Govia Thameslink made all possible effort to contact their customers. I have made dozens of Delay Repay claims so they have my contact details on file. They could have emailed all their customers. I also feel they could have arranged a bus replacement service at least as far as Finsubry Park.

I am going to make a complaint, is there anything (e.g. consumer protection law) I can use to support my application for a refund?

Thanking you in advance

BM

 

[jopsuk]

There were definitely posters at all Great Northern/Thameslink stations regarding the Kings Cross closure by the start of August- fairly sure I saw them as early as June.

Emailing you about the closure would not be a permitted use of the data they have from your delay-repay claims.

The leaflet- was this on the day you intended to travel or beforehand?

 

[Western Sunset]

I knew about it and I live in Dorset.

I'm also a teacher, though that didn't stop me finding out about it.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

One assumes that alternatives e.g. buses and ticket acceptance were in place and therefore you could use your ticket?

 

[30907]

1. It is hardly unusual for major engineering works to be carried out at weekends, especially bank holidays.
2. Bus services were provided (according to the publicity) as far as Cockfosters/Oakwood and across to various Midland route stations. I'm not sure what benefit a bus in to Finsbury Park would have been.
3. Any refund would be based on the difference between the fare paid for n days and the actual cost of travel for n-2 days, not on a straight pro rata basis. As season ticket rates are generally priced at less than 5 return fares, you are due little or nothing.
There's no harm in writing to GTR in the hope of a goodwill gesture, but that's all, sorry.

 

[londonboi198o5]

How did you buy your season ticket ??

if you bought it online the the website had plenty of information about the closure

if you bought it at the station then there would have been posters all over the station

it was also advertised in the free papers that everyone picks up and leave around the train.

personally I feel this closure was one of the best advertised and was promoted months in advance.

 

[Snow1964]

How did you buy your season ticket ??

if you bought it online the the website had plenty of information about the closure

if you bought it at the station then there would have been posters all over the station

it was also advertised in the free papers that everyone picks up and leave around the train.

personally I feel this closure was one of the best advertised and was promoted months in advance.

This may be factually correct, but that doesn’t mean the ticket buyer actually discovered one of these unless he was exploring a website or station

I would have a lot of sympathy if when buying, either a message had popped up warning that the works would be during the ticket validity period (or if buying in person, the ticket seller had advised this).

However if no warning was given at the point of ticket sale, (and saying it was one of a few hundred pages on a website doesn’t really help) then all the other information was about as useless to you as though if it was published in Zimbabwe, because it didn’t come to your notice before or whilst getting the ticket. Ultimately advertising is useless when it manages to exclude potential customers.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Would this mean that whenever there is a closure for engineering works someone needs to be told before buying a season ticket? So if you buy an annual season ticket online at the year end there is an obligation to let the purchaser know that on one Sunday in June there will be a RRB service? And if the answer is that’s ok, but this situation was different then where do you draw the line?

 

[MikeWh]

And if the answer is that’s ok, but this situation was different then where do you draw the line?

I think I'd potentially draw the line when the advice to "not travel" is given. Normal works with adequate RRB coverage are fine.

 

[WesternLancer]

Dear All

I August I bought a season ticket for travel between my home station and London King's Cross. There was no mention at the point of sale that I would be unable to use my ticket over the August bank holiday due to King's Cross being closed for engineering works. The first I knew about it was someone handing our leaflets outside my station. I often go into London and over the bank holiday weekend I had intended to go with my family to the Notting Hill Carnival.

I applied for a refund but my train company (Govia Thameslink) refused on the grounds they had advertised the closure well in advance. The trouble is I am a teacher and I do not commute into London over the summer. I would not seen any posters or read any announcements in newspapers. I would have had no reason to visit their website. I was also out the country for one week.

In addition to being unfair I do not believe Govia Thameslink made all possible effort to contact their customers. I have made dozens of Delay Repay claims so they have my contact details on file. They could have emailed all their customers. I also feel they could have arranged a bus replacement service at least as far as Finsubry Park.

I am going to make a complaint, is there anything (e.g. consumer protection law) I can use to support my application for a refund?

Thanking you in advance

BM

"am going to make a complaint, is there anything (e.g. consumer protection law) I can use to support my application for a refund?"

Welcome to the forum.

Sadly, I think the answer to your question is 'no'. I also think you are probably wasting your time complaining too, but maybe worth seeing if you get an ex gratia goodwill payment I suppose.

Probably have to chalk it up to learning experience about 'how the railway works'....

 

[BlackMonk]

Dear All


Many thanks for your replies.


jopsuk Unless there was a GDPR issue I don’t see why Govia Thameslink could not have used data collected through the Delay Repay scheme to contact their customers.

I was given a leaflet the first week I began using the ticket.


Bletchleyite Although Govia Thameslink said that ‘the closure was advertised well in advance so customers could make alternative arrangements’, a service that runs through my station to St.Pancras was also suspended and there was no bus replacement service even to Finsbury Park.


30907 If it was possible to get to Finsbury Park we could have got access to the tube network.

Interesting you say there was a bus replacement service on some lines.


Londonboi198o5 I bought the ticket at the station so I would have not seen a pop-up notice on their website. I did not see any posters but I have to be honest, I wasn’t looking for them.

I do read the Metro and Evening Standard but only when I am travelling by train.

It does however beg the question, why didn’t the woman who sold me the ticket mention the closure? Was she being passive-aggressive, taking nearly a thousand pounds off me and not mentioning I would not be able to use my ticket over the bank holiday? I think (hope) this is unlikely, I suspect she didn’t even know herself! If rail staff were unaware how can they expect the public to know?


Brissle Girl I see your point but in this case I bought the ticket a few weeks before the closure, something could have been easily said.


MikeWh As I said there was no bus replacement service so for people who work in London over the weekend, especially those on zero hour contracts and would have lost earnings, the advice ‘not to travel’ was simply not an option.


I think Govia-Thameslink could have provided some sort of service to London even if it was a bus replacement service to a tube station on the northern edge of the capitol and I think they could have done more to contact their customers directly rather than relying on a hit-or-miss advertising campaign.


Kind regards


BM

 

[WesternLancer]

Dear All


Many thanks for your replies.


jopsuk Unless there was a GDPR issue I don’t see why Govia Thameslink could not have used data collected through the Delay Repay scheme to contact their customers.

I was given a leaflet the first week I began using the ticket.


Bletchleyite Although Govia Thameslink said that ‘the closure was advertised well in advance so customers could make alternative arrangements’, a service that runs through my station to St.Pancras was also suspended and there was no bus replacement service even to Finsbury Park.


30907 If it was possible to get to Finsbury Park we could have got access to the tube network.

Interesting you say there was a bus replacement service on some lines.


Londonboi198o5 I bought the ticket at the station so I would have not seen a pop-up notice on their website. I did not see any posters but I have to be honest, I wasn’t looking for them.

I do read the Metro and Evening Standard but only when I am travelling by train.

It does however beg the question, why didn’t the woman who sold me the ticket mention the closure? Was she being passive-aggressive, taking nearly a thousand pounds off me and not mentioning I would not be able to use my ticket over the bank holiday? I think (hope) this is unlikely, I suspect she didn’t even know herself! If rail staff were unaware how can they expect the public to know?


Brissle Girl I see your point but in this case I bought the ticket a few weeks before the closure, something could have been easily said.


MikeWh As I said there was no bus replacement service so for people who work in London over the weekend, especially those on zero hour contracts and would have lost earnings, the advice ‘not to travel’ was simply not an option.


I think Govia-Thameslink could have provided some sort of service to London even if it was a bus replacement service to a tube station on the northern edge of the capitol and I think they could have done more to contact their customers directly rather than relying on a hit-or-miss advertising campaign.


Kind regards


BM

Hi BM

I don't use the route so can't recall the exact announcements in place but I guess it will be like this (in case it helps for future trips)
https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/kings-cross-remodelling

Just to mention - in areas where there are frequent other transport options the train companies will sometimes arrange 'ticket acceptance' with other operators, including bus operators etc - so do not always provide a replacement bus service.

There is an example of that on that link:
4-5 January 2020 - Reduced service to / from London King's Cross. No trains between Peterborough & Hitchin, a replacement bus service will be in operation. No trains between Finsbury Park & Moorgate, tickets will be accepted on Northern & Victoria lines and TFL buses between the stations.

I've bolded the bit that is 'ticket acceptance'.

Apols if i am not aware of the situation that applied but are you saying there was no ticket acceptance on an alternative route and no bus replacement service when you tried to use your season or are you complaining there was no train of the sort you expected on your route when you tried to travel.

I'm assuming you are saying there was no service of any sort at all between your home station and a London terminus / Finsbury Park?

It would help to know what is your home station in this instance, don't think you have stated it.

 

[Man of Kent]

The website describing the August bank holiday closure is still live. It gives station-by-station arrangements: https://eastcoastupgrade.co.uk/disruption/august-travel-disruption/
That for Stevenage - a semi-random example as the OP's originating station is not known - states (in upper case):
"***DO NOT TRAVEL*** THERE IS NO TRAIN SERVICE. A LIMITED BUS SERVICE WILL OPERATE BETWEEN STEVENAGE AND LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY FOR CONNECTIONS TO THAMESLINK SERVICES TO CENTRAL LONDON. A LIMITED BUS SERVICE WILL OPERATE FOR INTERMEDIATE STATIONS BETWEEN HITCHIN AND POTTERS BAR AND BETWEEN STEVENAGE AND ENFIELD CHASE."
Further discussion of this closure and alternatives can be found in the thread "ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing".

 

[najaB]

Unless there was a GDPR issue I don’t see why Govia Thameslink could not have used data collected through the Delay Repay scheme to contact their customers.

Collected data can be used for one specific purpose.

 

[MikeWh]

MikeWh As I said there was no bus replacement service so for people who work in London over the weekend, especially those on zero hour contracts and would have lost earnings, the advice ‘not to travel’ was simply not an option.

My comment was mainly aimed at Brissle Girl who was pondering where the cut off ought to be. FWIW, given the advice not to travel for the whole bank holiday weekend I think it might have been in order to provide a small discount for season tickets spanning that weekend.

However, it seems that you wanted a bus all the way to Finsbury Park. There were buses from some stations (eg Potters Bar) to Oakwood or Cockfosters on the Piccadilly line which then takes you to Finsbury Park. I'm sure that's a faster option than joining all the traffic towards Central London.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I don't think ignorance is a defence

The "Railway" normally publicises major engineering works well in advance at stations etc (e.g posters) and often, there are on-train announcements and certainly where I live, announcements at stations too - often advising passengers to "not travel" or to make alternative travel plans

It is also not the responsibility of "The Railway" to write to you personally with advance information, however...

If you create an account on your TOC's website, you can sign up for regular updates and forthcoming engineering works

 

[Haywain]

As I said there was no bus replacement service so for people who work in London over the weekend,

This just isn't true. There was a significant network of buses, mainly across to stations served by Thameslink between London and Bedford but also, as mentioned above, to London Underground stations such as Cockfosters. Whilst these would have provided extended journey times, they would all have been quicker than running buses all the way into London.

 

[30907]

It does however beg the question, why didn’t the woman who sold me the ticket mention the closure? Was she being passive-aggressive, taking nearly a thousand pounds off me and not mentioning I would not be able to use my ticket over the bank holiday?

Maybe, as on your account you bought it a few weeks earlier, it didn't occur to the person concerned that you were specifically intending to use it on the dates affected - season ticket travel in the London area is considerably reduced then.

 

[jon0844]

My comment was mainly aimed at Brissle Girl who was pondering where the cut off ought to be. FWIW, given the advice not to travel for the whole bank holiday weekend I think it might have been in order to provide a small discount for season tickets spanning that weekend.

However, it seems that you wanted a bus all the way to Finsbury Park. There were buses from some stations (eg Potters Bar) to Oakwood or Cockfosters on the Piccadilly line which then takes you to Finsbury Park. I'm sure that's a faster option than joining all the traffic towards Central London.

There were also buses to take people over to the MML and for trains into St Pancras, which would have been even quicker.

People were advised not to travel (especially long distance travellers with lots of bags) but it was possible to travel and indeed many people did.

 

[Mag_seven]

People were advised not to travel (especially long distance travellers with lots of bags)

But it didn't state that - it just said "do not travel". Whilst a complete refund for each day of the blockade is not required a goodwill gesture is in order given the almost unprecedented nature of this closure. I don't recall other engineering work blocks coming with a "do not travel" advisory with them.

 

[Haywain]

But it didn't state that - it just said "do not travel". Whilst a complete refund for each day of the blockade is not required a goodwill gesture is in order given the almost unprecedented nature of this closure. I don't recall other engineering work blocks coming with a "do not travel" advisory with them.

We don't know what the OP's origin station was, but there was widespread ticket acceptance in place alongside the replacement/transfer bus services. For this reason I do not agree that any refund or goodwill gesture is necessary.

 

[jon0844]

But it didn't state that - it just said "do not travel". Whilst a complete refund for each day of the blockade is not required a goodwill gesture is in order given the almost unprecedented nature of this closure. I don't recall other engineering work blocks coming with a "do not travel" advisory with them.

The main text was do not travel, but it was qualified with a 'unless absolutely necessary' and the warning was more emphasised at major stations - especially Intercity stations along the ECML - because it really would have made journey times slow for long distance travellers. However, posters also showed a map of the alternatives. All of that information was online too. It was quite clear that there were other arrangements in place, but they just couldn't hope to move the same number of people who might normally use a train.

If someone only read the headline without reading the whole story, there's not much more the industry could do IMO.

If someone really wanted to travel, they could. So I see no reason for a refund to be offered. Nor for anyone who will be impacted by the next two weekend blockades that are already known about now.

 

[BlackMonk]

Dear All

Many thanks for your further responses, in particular Man of Kent. I looked up my station on the website you indicated and apparently there was a bus service between my home station and Luton Airport Parkway so I could have got into London if it was absolutely necessary. I will therefore not pursue my claim for a refund.

I still think communication could have been better. I was unaware they were even providing this service, I was under the impression all the services were suspended. Just shows how useful forums like this are.

BTW jon0844, what next two weekend blockades?

All the best

BM

 

[jon0844]

https://eastcoastupgrade.co.uk/ has all the information you likely need.

Next key dates are 25th and 26th January, and 29th February and 1st March.

There are other dates (also shown) where there will be reduced services.

There are posters up already at stations.