Refunding TOD Tickets when Machine Broke

[Lucy1501]

I was travelling yesterday on tickets bought from Trainsplit which could only be issued as paper tickets. Ordinarily I would pick up my TOD tickets a few days beforehand or go to a staffed ticket office, however this was rather short notice.

When I went to the station the card reader broke and the machine locked up being unable to purchase any alternative tickets. The ticket machine informed me to seek support from a member of staff, so I approached the conductor on the train, which at this point was 2 minutes away from arriving. His ticket machine did not have facilities for printing TOD tickets, so allowed me to buy new tickets and said I should be able to get a full refund for my TOD tickets because of this.

Trainsplit have informed me that they can process a refund minus an admin fee - normally £10 but they would reduce it to £5 as a good will gesture because my tickets were under £10.

Who is correct here? Trainsplit saying I can only get a refund with admin fee or the conductor who says I can get a full refund? Should I have gone to the TOC rather than the retailer in this case? Is there a way for me to get my money back?

 

[mangyiscute]

I might be wrong, but in this instance, I would've thought the conductor should allow you to travel on the confirmation email until you reach a working TVM and then you can print your tickets out there - the couple of times something similar has happened to me this has been what happened. Therefore, I would probably accept the refund minus the admin fee from trainsplit and then contact the TOC and ask for £5 compensation as a goodwill gesture (or perhaps difference between ticket prices too if you had to pay a lot more on the train, say if it was an advance)

 

[Adam Williams]

RSPS1002 ("Ticket on Departure: Code of Practice") issued by Rail Delivery Group states:

In cases where the TVM is not working and a customer has their CTR reference number and/or
appropriate proof of purchase and appropriate identification, the customer will be instructed to
board their train and be allowed to travel subject to penalty fare area restrictions and advised to
collect their tickets at the first available opportunity.

In cases where the customer has their CTR reference number and/or appropriate proof of
purchase and appropriate identification but is obliged to purchase another ticket, the customer
shall be instructed to retain the replacement ticket and the receipt and claim a refund from the
new retailer.

The new retailer of the replacement ticket was the train operator; they should be the ones compensating you for their failure to maintain the ticket machine (if it was theirs)/failure to honour your travel documentation, not the original retailer.

 

[paul1609]

Perhaps it would help if we knew the station where the TVM was situated. In the south east I believe most conductors will either issue the ticket or tell you to obtain it at the interchange or terminal station.

 

[Lucy1501]

It was at Maryport on the Cumbrian Coast Line.

 

[Watershed]

Technically speaking, whilst the above may be industry practice, the retailer is still the one legally responsible for delivering the tickets, even if that job is (effectively) subcontracted to the station facilities operator by means of their ticket machine. In this sense I'm not sure it's really different to the position if the retailer's internal systems for generating or sending e-tickets broke, for instance.

That being said, if the customer was given permission to board, my view is that the TOC was wrong to charge for a new ticket and accordingly is liable to refund the cost of any wrongly charged fare. If OTOH the customer was not given permission to board, in my view the retailer would be liable for the wrongly charged fare.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It was at Maryport on the Cumbrian Coast Line.

That's an unmanned Northern station, isn't it?

 

[Lucy1501]

That's an unmanned Northern station, isn't it?

Yes. Not much phone signal either so I couldn’t phone support.

 

[paul1609]

So can Northern still not issue ToD onboard where a Bog Roll ticket is applicable?

 

[Lucy1501]

So can Northern still not issue ToD onboard where a Bog Roll ticket is applicable?

Well initially the conductor said he could, until I presented a booking reference, at which point he said that he couldn't. Rather confusing.

 

[skyhigh]

So can Northern still not issue ToD onboard where a Bog Roll ticket is applicable?

No.

 

[Adam Williams]

I'm not sure it's really different to the position if the retailer's internal systems for generating or sending e-tickets broke, for instance.

A reasonable consumer would appreciate that one of those things is entirely within the retailer's control, though, and anything related to ToD once a transaction has been correctly inserted into LSM, is not. Pursuing the TOC (with the retailer's assistance, if desired) is the reasonable next step.

If that fails, only at that point would I suggest considering rights under e.g. the Consumer Contracts Regulations which could include a further formal complaint to the retailer citing the regs or e.g. a chargeback. In the general case this isn't without risk: I've had my own account with one of GB's larger retailers adversely affected and prevented from making purchases following a dispute where I was confident I was in the right.

In this particular instance the TIS was capable of issuing all of the customer's tickets electronically which makes this case even more frustrating. All of this hassle could've and should've been avoided if other organisations within the wider transport industry had prioritised this area of the passenger experience this year.

 

[gray1404]

So the correct procedure here then would be to still get the tickets purchased on Trainsplit printed off at either a booking office or TVM then send copies of both sets of tickets to Northern. Northern should refund you for the new sets of tickets you were compelled to purchase on the day due to procedure not being followed correctly and their TVM failing to function.

It looks like the procedure followed on board was not correct in the circumstances. This is for Northern to sort out but I think they would be entitled to insist the tickets are printed.

I am surprised Trainsplit are trying to charge an admin fee given the tickets have not been printed.

I have had issues on the Cumbrian coastline myself using a free Northern ticket from Newcastle to Liverpool. I was told I should not be going that way and should have gone direct from Carlisle (via assume on TPE or Avanti). When I said I thought I could only use the ticket on Northern she said I'd dated the ticket wrong. I'd entered Liverpool to Newcastle and both outward and return dates. Then she walked off when I said no, I'm making my return journey.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Although of no help now, in future don't purchase through trainsplit, but rather from a site that gives fee free refunds on non-collected tickets.

 

[Adam Williams]

Although of no help now, in future don't purchase through trainsplit, but rather from a site that gives fee free refunds on non-collected tickets.

And pay over the odds when said site doesn't save you money by splitting tickets properly..

Sounds like a sensible and proportionate thing to do in response to a once-in-a-blue-moon issue that only affects ToD!

 

[Haywain]

I have had issues on the Cumbrian coastline myself using a free Northern ticket from Newcastle to Liverpool. I was told I should not be going that way and should have gone direct from Carlisle (via assume on TPE or Avanti). When I said I thought I could only use the ticket on Northern she said I'd dated the ticket wrong. I'd entered Liverpool to Newcastle and both outward and return dates. Then she walked off when I said no, I'm making my return journey.

This is of no relevance to the subject of the thread.

 

[gray1404]

This is of no relevance to the subject of the thread.

I made this as a side comment. See the additional comments I made in how to move forward and resolve this. However I made it to demonstrate I've had issues too with staff on that line getting things related to ticketing issues wrong.

 

[Deafdoggie]

And pay over the odds when said site doesn't save you money by splitting tickets properly..

Sounds like a sensible and proportionate thing to do in response to a once-in-a-blue-moon issue that only affects ToD!

Many sites do split tickets. It's not a niche thing.

 

[Adam Williams]

Many sites do split tickets. It's not a niche thing.

I said splitting tickets properly.

Which sites do free refunds on uncollected ToD w/ split support, @Deafdoggie? Perhaps you can enlighten us all.

 

[Alex C.]

My experience of TOC customer services is mixed (including working for them!) but I would expect that proving the machine didn't work, getting together the evidence etc is likely to need at least two emails to them, plus they tend to have poor refund processes for tickets purchased in person but refunded via the call centre and this can often involve additional phone calls. Overall, for the sake of £5 it would not be worth my time to pursue this.

The original retailer on the other hand has the ability to click a button and the refund is processed back onto the original card. As a consumer I would expect the retailer to take responsibility for getting the ticket to me, and if that failed (be it because Royal Mail don't deliver a posted ticket, or the TVM doesn't work) then I'd expect them to take the responsibility for sorting out the consequences. I appreciate that TrainSplit is a small operation and maybe the internal industry guidance does put the onus on the TOC but it puts me off purchasing from them if they see the need to quibble over £5 in this situation.

This doesn't excuse the fact that Northern should have been proactive and accepted the CTR but this thread is just another example of how passenger unfriendly the entire industry is.

 

[Adam Williams]

My experience of TOC customer services is mixed (including working for them!) but I would expect that proving the machine didn't work, getting together the evidence etc is likely to need at least two emails to them, plus they tend to have poor refund processes for tickets purchased in person but refunded via the call centre and this can often involve additional phone calls. Overall, for the sake of £5 it would not be worth my time to pursue this.

As a consumer I would expect the retailer to take responsibility for getting the ticket to me, and if that failed (be it because Royal Mail don't deliver a posted ticket, or the TVM doesn't work) then I'd expect them to take the responsibility for sorting out the consequences. I appreciate that TrainSplit is a small operation and maybe the internal industry guidance does put the onus on the TOC but it puts me off purchasing from them if they see the need to quibble over £5 in this situation.

You acknowledge the train operators fail to provide a fit-for-purpose customer service offering and fail to adequately put processes in place for compensating customers who don't fit into the neat category of purchasing directly from the operator.

What you're suggesting though is that an independent family-business retailer that employs skilled UK-based staff should be expected to subsidise the TOC's cheap, crap (and often outsourced) customer services and staff who aren't trained to follow industry guidance properly. Let's be clear, if you waive the admin fee every time this happens, then you make a total loss on each and every booking (and we're talking a couple of quid under these circumstances, not a few pennies). It quickly adds up. It seems pretty reasonable to me to ask the customer to at least try to recover costs from the operator in the first instance when it's their machine that was broken and their staff that didn't allow travel. Raileasy will often contact the TOC to facilitate this if there are communication issues, or provide a letter supporting the customer's claim to try and reduce hassle on the customer's side. I've intervened with Avanti in the last two weeks or so to get them to pay up after a customer struggled to get anywhere themselves.

In general, this is a problem that rears its head quite frequently; TrainSplit already gets a huge volume of support queries that should have been dealt with properly by train operators (e.g. poorly handled Delay Repay claims or complaints about on-train services not being provided and compensation not being paid), and end up with the retailer because Raileasy's staff (who are ranked at the top of TrustPilot as a result) actually bother to read and reply to customer's emails in a reasonable timeframe.

this thread is just another example of how passenger unfriendly the entire industry is

There are some really good staff who do care about the passenger experience working at TOCs, but they rarely work in customer-facing roles and they don't decide how customer support is run or funded. This is the problem, combined with a lack of pragmatism on the ground from some front-line staff (due to training and not being equipped with the right tools to do their job IMO), in my experience.

 

[MrJeeves]

Raileasy will often contact the TOC to facilitate this if there are communication issues, or provide a letter supporting the customer's claim to try and reduce hassle on the customer's side. I've intervened with Avanti in the last two weeks or so to get them to pay up after a customer struggled to get anywhere themselves.

Sounds like invoices should be sent to the TOCs at this rate...

 

[Alex C.]

You acknowledge the train operators fail to provide a fit-for-purpose customer service offering and fail to adequately put processes in place for compensating customers who don't fit into the neat category of purchasing directly from the operator.

What you're suggesting though is that an independent family-business retailer that employs skilled UK-based staff should be expected to subsidise the TOC's cheap, crap (and often outsourced) customer services and staff who aren't trained to follow industry guidance properly. Let's be clear, if you waive the admin fee every time this happens, then you make a total loss on each and every booking (and we're talking a couple of quid under these circumstances, not a few pennies). It quickly adds up. It seems pretty reasonable to me to ask the customer to at least try to recover costs from the operator in the first instance when it's their machine that was broken and their staff that didn't allow travel. Raileasy will often contact the TOC to facilitate this if there are communication issues, or provide a letter supporting the customer's claim to try and reduce hassle on the customer's side. I've intervened with Avanti in the last two weeks or so to get them to pay up after a customer struggled to get anywhere themselves.

In general, this is a problem that rears its head quite frequently; TrainSplit already gets a huge volume of support queries that should have been dealt with properly by train operators (e.g. poorly handled Delay Repay claims or complaints about on-train services not being provided and compensation not being paid), and end up with the retailer because Raileasy's staff (who are ranked at the top of TrustPilot as a result) actually bother to read and reply to customer's emails in a reasonable timeframe.


There are some really good staff who do care about the passenger experience working at TOCs, but they rarely work in customer-facing roles and they don't decide how customer support is run or funded. This is the problem, combined with a lack of pragmatism on the ground from some front-line staff (due to training and not being equipped with the right tools to do their job IMO), in my experience.

I can't disagree with any of what you've said - however I'm not sure that it's fair for the consumer to bear the burden of a terrible system. You say it's not unreasonable to ask a consumer to at least try and speak to the TOC - but that shows a complete disrespect for my time when you acknowledge the difficulties in communicating with a TOC. In those circumstances I wouldn't do a chargeback or spend time arguing, I'd just make a mental note to not use the provider again.

To add some context, I worked frontline customer service (escalated complaints only) for a TOC - there were lots of staff who wanted to help and a genuine desire to try to deliver good service but this was tacked onto a load of processes and procedures which were archaic in nature, and a lack of detailed training on the legalities of the NRCoT and PRO for example. I wouldn't expect every member of staff to have detailed knowledge but an understanding of when to escalate appropriately would be a good start.

The simple solution would be for TOC/RDG to cancel out any fees to the retailer when a ticket can't be collected - and probably to enable eTickets on all flows.

I will say that I appreciate the reply - being blunt, I am usually a Trainline user who is willing to pay booking fees in exchange their for their app (which seems miles better than anyone else can provide) but I do think you're at least trying to engage on the issue so I will make sure to try you out again on my next purchase.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I said splitting tickets properly.

Which sites do free refunds on uncollected ToD w/ split support, @Deafdoggie? Perhaps you can enlighten us all.

I don't know any sites that split tickets improperly. But trainline has always been the cheapest, taking all fees & charges into account. I guess that different sites have different prices might mean some aren't doing it properly. But it's not worth shouting about, as invariably it'll be the cheaper ones that go up in price!

I've not had many unused tickets, but on each occasion I have Trainline have fully refunded without a fee, without any quibble. It might not be official policy, but it's certainly their customer service. On the occasions when I have paid a booking fee with trainline (and it's rare I do) I feel it's worth it for the ease of use of their website/app and their customer service.

 

[MrJeeves]

But trainline has always been the cheapest, taking all fees & charges into account.

I think the only time I've seen Trainline be cheapest is for extremely basic splits where TrainSplit will add the x% share of saving while Trainline won't.

Trainline definitely won't offer me the 50p split ticket saving that TrainSplit got me for my trip this afternoon, though.

 

[Mike395]

I don't know any sites that split tickets improperly. But trainline has always been the cheapest, taking all fees & charges into account. I guess that different sites have different prices might mean some aren't doing it properly. But it's not worth shouting about, as invariably it'll be the cheaper ones that go up in price!

I've not had many unused tickets, but on each occasion I have Trainline have fully refunded without a fee, without any quibble. It might not be official policy, but it's certainly their customer service. On the occasions when I have paid a booking fee with trainline (and it's rare I do) I feel it's worth it for the ease of use of their website/app and their customer service.

For what its worth - my own experience is quite the opposite - particularly on longer journeys as Trainline (at least when I last tested it recently) only ever did one split. Whereas 3-4 can be optimal for e.g. Plymouth to Newcastle. Even with a larger share of saving fee, it usuallybeats Trainline's single split plus booking fee convincingly.

As one example - see below. TrainSplit is an order of magnitude cheaper (and this was the very first example I tried, it wasn't like I was looking hard)

 

[Deafdoggie]

For what its worth - my own experience is quite the opposite - particularly on longer journeys as Trainline (at least when I last tested it recently) only ever did one split. Whereas 3-4 can be optimal for e.g. Plymouth to Newcastle. Even with a larger share of saving fee, it usuallybeats Trainline's single split plus booking fee convincingly.

As one example.

This is why you have to check out all the sites. They all give slightly different plans and prices!

 

[yorkie]

I was travelling yesterday on tickets bought from Trainsplit which could only be issued as paper tickets. Ordinarily I would pick up my TOD tickets a few days beforehand or go to a staffed ticket office, however this was rather short notice.

When I went to the station the card reader broke and the machine locked up being unable to purchase any alternative tickets. The ticket machine informed me to seek support from a member of staff, so I approached the conductor on the train, which at this point was 2 minutes away from arriving. His ticket machine did not have facilities for printing TOD tickets, so allowed me to buy new tickets and said I should be able to get a full refund for my TOD tickets because of this.

Trainsplit have informed me that they can process a refund minus an admin fee - normally £10 but they would reduce it to £5 as a good will gesture because my tickets were under £10.

Who is correct here? Trainsplit saying I can only get a refund with admin fee or the conductor who says I can get a full refund? Should I have gone to the TOC rather than the retailer in this case? Is there a way for me to get my money back?

Northern need to refund you; they should not be charging an admin fee, as it was their mistake/error to not follow the correct procedures. Please let us know how you get on; if you'd like help drafting a letter, please also feel free to ask us.

I don't know any sites that split tickets improperly. But trainline has always been the cheapest, taking all fees & charges into account.

It's not correct to suggest that Trainline is cheaper than Trainsplit. Firstly, Trainsplit does not charge a booking fee. Trainline does (unless you use the app to purchase on the day of travel). Trainsplit does charge a share of savings fee, but only if a saving is identified (and savings are often better than Trainline's).

I've not had many unused tickets, but on each occasion I have Trainline have fully refunded without a fee, without any quibble. It might not be official policy, but it's certainly their customer service. On the occasions when I have paid a booking fee with trainline (and it's rare I do)

Trainline do generally charge fees.

I feel it's worth it for the ease of use of their website/app and their customer service.

I am not convinced you'd get as good customer service from Trainline as forum members can get from the forum's site (which uses Trainsplit).

This is why you have to check out all the sites. They all give slightly different plans and prices!

I'll take it you are withdrawing your claim?

 

[Kilopylae]

I don't know any sites that split tickets improperly.

To add to others' contrarywise experience, I've never found a splitting engine as good as Trainsplit's. Trainline is often more expensive and I don't have a good perception of their customer service, either, whereas I trust Trainsplit to back the customer up in disputes (when they are correct).

 

[yorkie]

Yes the forum's site often finds better itineraries and/or fare combinations than Trainline, but it is extremely rare to happen the other way round!

In the unlikely event that Trainline comes up with a cheaper combination of tickets, for any given itinerary, than the forum's site, I'd like to know about it.

Similarly, if we do not come up with the optimal itinerary, again, let me know about it.

We can get it passed onto the relevant people, usually this can be fixed in time for it to be bought the following morning.