[Refunds/Exchanges] Best thing to do with this part-used return?

[Death]

Hail all!
About three weeks ago I had to do an emergency run from Newport to Bagshot, and not having any access to an Avantix installation beforehand (And being in a big rush to buy my ticket anyway) I unwittingly bought a saver return out of habit, insted of the single that I actually needed. Not helped by the fact that I didn't have my Railcard on me at the time, I also wound up paying the full £56,- fare as well.

Now it seems that this might be fortunate in a way, as I'm probabally going to nip back to Newport in the coming week to visit a friend - And of course I can use the return portion for this. However, I'll be returning from Newport again soon afterwards (And don't want to get chinged that much twice over a month!) and to save money this time I'm planning to take the SWT-priced "long way around" via Salisbury and Warminster, especially as that allows me to clock up some decent Sprinter mileage in the process!

According to my (Slightly out of date) NFM 03 installation, the Warminster/Salisbury single fare is £22.75 and the return is £26.65 - Both with Railcards. I've also looked at splitting at Bristol TM, but that would add £12.00 in singles to an original discount of about £6.60...So a direct SWT fare seems like the best and most cost-effective option.

Anyhow...What I'm in a quandry about is the fact that my ticketing pattern in this case seems to have gone a bit about face, and unless I go for a single at some point (Which saves me a whopping £4.00!) I'm going to end up with a "spare" portion somewhere along the line. :?

The ticket that I currently hold is a £56,- Saver Return Newport > Bagshot with a used outward portion. Can any ticket office bods here tell me what refund on the unused portion (If any) I might be able to obtain and use against the cost of the SWT fare that I intend to buy, and any "administration fees" that may apply in this case?

If I can gain some of the "unused value" out of the ticket to put towards my SWT priced fare, it might help me to regain a little from my original error of desperation in Newport's ticket office!
(Failing that, I'll use the portion as normal and buy a single coming back...But as the original ticket is only half used, I estimate that I might have up to £28.00 of usable value already in this FGW return that I've got...And it'd make sense to swap that ticket for another one of the same value with two journeys on it! 8))

Farewell for now, and many thanks in advance for any advice!
>> Death <<

 

[John @ home]

what refund on the unused portion (If any) I might be able to obtain and use against the cost of the SWT fare that I intend to buy, and any "administration fees" that may apply in this case?

Sorry, zero. Using NFM 04, the calculation is:

Ticket held: Super Off-Peak Return (SSR) NEWPORT S WALES - BAGSHOT route NOT LONDON £56.00
Portion used: Super Off-Peak Single (SSS) NEWPORT S WALES - BAGSHOT route NOT LONDON £55.00
Remaining value = £56 - £55 - £10 Admin fee = minus £9!

This example has uncovered an anomaly caused by FGW's recent changes in off-peak prices. From the September 2008 fare change date, they copied other former InterCity TOCs by renaming their Off-Peak Return (SVR) fares as Super Off-Peak Return (SSR) and setting the time restrictions at the maximum level the franchise allows, while substantially increasing the price of the then unregulated SVR. But, uniquely, they then reduced the price of the SVS and SSS fares along their line of route to half the price of the appropriate return. This gives, for example,

NFM 03
NEWPORT S WALES - READING route ANY PERMITTED - SVR £52.00, SVS £51.00.

NFM 04
NEWPORT S WALES - READING route ANY PERMITTED - SVR £62.00, SVS £31.00, SSR £52.00, SSS £26.00.

But they did not extend this reduction in the single fare to all journeys where they set the fare but which extend beyond their line of route. They did for some. They didn't for others. For example,

NFM 03
NEWPORT S WALES - BAGSHOT route NOT LONDON - SVR £56.00, SVS £55.00.

NFM 04
NEWPORT S WALES - BAGSHOT route NOT LONDON - SVR £67.00, SVS £66.00, SSR £56.00, SSS £55.00.

It seems to me that this is grossly unfair! But if fairness was a feature of the British railway fares system, this forum would not have been needed.

According to my (Slightly out of date) NFM 03 installation, the Warminster/Salisbury single fare is £22.75 and the return is £26.65 - Both with Railcards.

I can't find a BAGSHOT - NEWPORT S WALES route WARMSTER-SALSBRY fare in NFM 03 or NFM 04, but there are FARNBOROUGH STNS - NEWPORT S WALES route WARMSTER-SALSBRY fares at these prices.

I'm probabally going to nip back to Newport in the coming week to visit a friend - And of course I can use the return portion for this.

I think the best advice is that you should do that, travelling via Reading or Salisbury as you choose.

Then, for your journey from Newport back to Bagshot, buy a Super Off-Peak Single to Ash Vale instead of Bagshot. This is now a lot cheaper, despite the fact that you would usually pass through Bagshot to get to Ash Vale.

NFM 03
NEWPORT S WALES - BAGSHOT route NOT LONDON - Railcard SVR £36.95, SVS £36.30.
NEWPORT S WALES - ASH VALE route NOT LONDON - Railcard SVR £34.30, SVS £33.65.

NFM 04
NEWPORT S WALES - BAGSHOT route NOT LONDON - Railcard SVR £44.20, SVS £43.55, SSR £36.95, SSS £36.30.
NEWPORT S WALES - ASH VALE route NOT LONDON - Railcard SVR £40.90, SVS £20.45, SSR £34.30, SSS £17.15.

Note that the £17.15 NEWPORT S WALES - ASH VALE route NOT LONDON Railcard SSS fare has these restrictions:

Restriction : XC
JOURNEYS TO/FROM/VIA LONDON/READING

Available as listed below MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS (by any train on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holiday Mondays).

TOWARDS LONDON
Available on the following trains and all later services:
From: Newport 1000 (also valid between 0200 & 0545)

In addition to the specific restrictions shown above, the following restrictions apply:
Validity code Q8 applies to all journeys via Fareham/Southampton/Salisbury. Sorry, I can't find the details for Validity code Q8 - John @ home

Restrictions are lifted on Christmas Eve (p.m. restrictions only) and between Christmas and New Year (a.m. and p.m.)

 

[Death]

Sorry, zero. Using NFM 04, the calculation is: minus £9.00

Only on British Railways can a man have to pay a £10.00 "admin fee" to get his £1.00 excess back! hock::roll:
(Mind ye...I am wondering if maybe I should do this on a cheaper ticket at some point, then send the ticket and the accompanying receipt(s) to the press to expose such a strange and unfair practice to the public at large? )

This example has uncovered an anomaly caused by FGW's recent changes in off-peak prices. From the September 2008 fare change date, they copied other former InterCity TOCs by renaming their Off-Peak Return (SVR) fares as Super Off-Peak Return (SSR) and setting the time restrictions at the maximum level the franchise allows, while substantially increasing the price of the then unregulated SVR. But, uniquely, they then reduced the price of the SVS and SSS fares along their line of route to half the price of the appropriate return.

So when looking up fares along FGW routes in NFM 04+, I really need to be looking at the SSR/SSS lines for TOC fares insted of the usual SVR/SVS ones then? I'd normally skip any "SSR" lines that I came across as they'd look to me like advance fare types! hock:

I can't find a BAGSHOT - NEWPORT S WALES route WARMSTER-SALSBRY fare in NFM 03 or NFM 04, but there are FARNBOROUGH STNS - NEWPORT S WALES route WARMSTER-SALSBRY fares at these prices.
I think the best advice is that you should do that, travelling via Reading or Salisbury as you choose.

When I bought my ticket, I was travelling directly to Bagshot as I had arranged to stay with a friend there that night. My usual stations are Farnborough Main, Frimley and Blackwater...Although Bagshot is also within walking distance, by my definition. 8)

When I travel back to Newport this week (Using the FGW return) I'm planning on starting my journey from Blackwater - Although I fear this measure of convenience means I might need to buy a single to Wokingham on top.
(Indeed, is that actually the case? In terms of distance by rail, Blackwater is much closer to Wokingham than Bagshot is! )

Then, for your journey from Newport back to Bagshot, buy a Super Off-Peak Single to Ash Vale instead of Bagshot. This is now a lot cheaper, despite the fact that you would usually pass through Bagshot to get to Ash Vale.

Actually, ye might want to double-check the validity of that route in the NRRG. I've never been able to use the NRRG that well because of it's complexity, but if that's an SWT fare the "valid" route might be: Bristol TM > Warminster > Salisbury > Basingstoke > Brookwood||Woking > Ash Vale. Travel via Reading might be barred or at least heavily restricted on that fare! hock:

When I return from Newport though, I'll be coming back into either Farnborough, Fleet or Blackwater - Depending on which route I take back from Newport.

Note that the £17.15 NEWPORT S WALES - ASH VALE route NOT LONDON Railcard SSS fare has these restrictions:

I can't immediateley find that fare here because I'm still on NFM 03 (I may upgrade when 05 comes out) but can I ask which TOC issues that fare and which route(s) it's available on? If it's an FGW fare, I may well be able to use it to come straight back to Blackwater (A member of Farnborough Group) which is both quicker and cheaper than the SWT single fare that I'm currently looking at! 8)

Farewell for now, and cheers for the advice!

 

[yorkie]

If you want to go a cheaper route one way, and a more expensive one the other way, then you need the cheaper ticket and an excess.

DUAL ROUTE AVAILABILITY
Where two or more permitted routes are available for a specific journey,
customers may wish to travel out by one route and return by another. If a
higher fare applies for the return leg of the journey the customer should be
issued with a ticket for the more direct route and an excess fare issued to
cover the difference in fare for the return routeing. This option should be
made available to customers who wish to pre-book a dual routed ticket prior
to travel.

There is no option from Bagshot.

But from Farnborough, if you said you want the cheaper route one way and the more expensive route the other way, then you should be issued with

Farnborough-Newport S.Wales route Warmster-Salsbry SVR £40.40
Excess to Not London for one portion (60.00-40.40/2) SVR £9.80
Total £50.20

It's too late to do that now, and as John says any refund is subject to a £10.00 admin fee. This is because it costs the railways £10 to do any transaction due to inefficiencies, and when selling a ticket this is waved because they're so kind and nice. *cough* Erm, well, actually it doesn't, it's just that no-one has got the cash to challenge them in court over it.

 

[Death]

If you want to go a cheaper route one way, and a more expensive one the other way, then you need the cheaper ticket and an excess. There is no option from Bagshot.

As I mentioned in my OP; The reason why I started off with an expensive ticket in the first place was because I was buying in a rush, reactively, with no access to Avantix, and without my Railcard in my possession. Had I pre-planned the journey, Id've taken my Railcard and bought an SWT SVS via Warminster.
(I'd been given a lift to Newport and was due to get one back as well, but the driver fell ill and I had to return by rail insted.)

It's too late to do that now, and as John says any refund is subject to a £10.00 admin fee. This is because it costs the railways £10 to do any transaction due to inefficiencies, and when selling a ticket this is waved because they're so kind and nice. *cough* Erm, well, actually it doesn't, it's just that no-one has got the cash to challenge them in court over it.

Interesting that it "costs BR a tenner" to handle a refund transaction, which is then passed on to the customer. On that token, it must cost Tesco the same amount to handle any refund they perform...But I wasn't charged the same "administration fee" last time I took a faulty product back for a refund. I wonder if it might be worth giving Which? a call over that?...

Anyhow...As John said above, I'm going to use the return portion to get to Newport (Which at least allows me some HST bashing!) and buy the cheapest available ticket for when I come back. I'll take NFM 03 with me on a pen drive (Or maybe NFM 04, if anyone would be kind enough to send it me? ) so I've got some point of reference for cheap fares and won't run into this situation a second time around. 8)

Farewell for now, and cheers again!

 

[John @ home]

So when looking up fares along FGW routes in NFM 04+, I really need to be looking at the SSR/SSS lines for TOC fares insted of the usual SVR/SVS ones then?

SSR/SSS fares are now common on FGW, EMT and EC but not yet on the other former InterCity TOCs. I would not be surprised if other TOCs adopted this approach.

When I travel back to Newport this week (Using the FGW return) I'm planning on starting my journey from Blackwater - Although I fear this measure of convenience means I might need to buy a single to Wokingham on top. ... is that actually the case?

Blackwater is not on a Permitted Route for a Bagshot - Newport S Wales route Not London journey. Rather than a £2.40 Blackwater - Wokingham railcard SDS, you may be able to obtain a £0.00 excess fare on your £56 Newport S Wales - Bagshot route Not London SSR to return from Aldershot. A Newport S Wales - Aldershot route Not London SSR costs £52, and is valid both via Bagshot and via Blackwater, so there should be no more to pay. The detailed rules for issuing excess fares do not appear to be in the public domain, but I would ask at a quiet time at a staffed ticket office. Once you have obtained a £0.00 excess fare, you can then start your journey from Blackwater because NFM 04 does not contain any indication that break of journey is restricted with this ticket.

I've never been able to use the NRRG that well because of it's complexity

I think you would enjoy becoming an expert on the Routeing Guide. Send me a PM if you need any help.

ye might want to double-check the validity of that (Newport - Ash Vale) route in the NRRG.

Yes, it's valid via Reading and it's set by FGW, not SWT. Here's the calculation

Newport S Wales is a Routeing Point. [1]
Ash Vale is a Routeing Point.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

Permitted routes are:
Newport (S.Wales) - Ash Vale : LONDON LW+WW WW
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/permitted_route_identifier.pdf
We can't use LONDON because the ticket is route NOT LONDON.

Map LW allows Newport - Swindon (by a choice of several routes), then Swindon- Didcot - Reading. Then map WW allows Reading - Wokingham - Ascot - Bagshot - Camberley - Ash Vale.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/maps.pdf

When I return from Newport though, I'll be coming back into either Farnborough, Fleet or Blackwater

Relevant NFM 04 fares are:

NFM 04
NEWPORT S WALES - FARNBOROUGH STNS route NOT LONDON - Railcard SSS £16.50.
NEWPORT S WALES - FLEET route NOT LONDON - Railcard SSS £16.50.
NEWPORT S WALES - BLACKWATER route NOT LONDON - Railcard SSS £16.50.

can I ask which TOC issues that fare and which route(s) it's available on? If it's an FGW fare, I may well be able to use it to come straight back to Blackwater (A member of Farnborough Group) which is both quicker and cheaper than the SWT single fare that I'm currently looking at!

The £16.50 fares above are all set by FGW and all are permitted via Salisbury or via Reading.

[1] Newport S Wales is normally a Routeing Point. But a new version of the guide was published this week with many obvious errors. At the time of writing, the list of Group Stations claims that Newport S Wales Group comprises BATH SPA, CARDIFF CENTRAL, BRISTOL GROUP, GLOUCESTER and HEREFORD. The calculations above assume that ATOC get round to fixing this over the next few days.

 

[Helvellyn]

Interesting that it "costs BR a tenner" to handle a refund transaction, which is then passed on to the customer. On that token, it must cost Tesco the same amount to handle any refund they perform...But I wasn't charged the same "administration fee" last time I took a faulty product back for a refund. I wonder if it might be worth giving Which? a call over that?...

It's not just a case of you handing a product back and been given a refund. It actually does cost time and money to process partial refunds. Airlines normally charge an admin fee for refunds too. Oh hang on, RailUK rules state we can't compare railways to airlines (but we can to any other retailer when the argument suits). :roll:

 

[yorkie]

Oh hang on, RailUK rules state we can't compare railways to airlines (but we can to any other retailer when the argument suits). :roll:

No rule against that, but if comparing walk-on fares for medium or short distances with airlines then you'd look foolish.

However, compare a London to Edinburgh Advance with an airline advance ticket and then the comparison is fair.

 

[theblackwatch]

Interesting that it "costs BR a tenner" to handle a refund transaction, which is then passed on to the customer. On that token, it must cost Tesco the same amount to handle any refund they perform...But I wasn't charged the same "administration fee" last time I took a faulty product back for a refund. I wonder if it might be worth giving Which? a call over that?...

You could make another comparison with Tesco, and bear in mind you didn't buy a fault product. You have bought a ticket and used half of it and now expect to get something back because you don't want the other half. Try the same with a tin of baked beans at Tesco!