Refused Ticket Collection

[Starmill]

This causes no end of problems with people who have to pick up train tickets, and also people trying to get a refund for something they bought in person (as it's practically impossible for someone to check whether the card you're producing is the same one you originally used to pay).

You are probably aware already, but just for the benefit of anyone else reading, it is possible for you to see the number of the card used for the purposes of claiming a refund. However that's of course not the number on the card itself. If the number were being checked electronically as part of the refund process it would still fail.

I'd agree they should be more upfront with what happens, but I disagree about it being nonsense.
In reality, the main use case that people need their actual card number for is shopping online. Having a card number that is different to your real card number for such purposes (often called a virtual card number) is a genuine security measure that some other issuers / companies also support (as it means if the card details get leaked / hacked then they don't get your real card number). I don't have a Chase account so not sure how in depth they go with it, but some other companies go further and create a different card number for each retailer or each time you want to use your card.

There are plenty card issuers who will allow you to use a virtual card if that's what you want to do for a belt and braces security measure. You can use them single use if you really want to, or Revolut even support single use virtual cards which expire once they've been used. If a consumer really wants that surely they can just use one of those free services? Revolut are nice and explicit about what you're getting.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Just make sure you either pay using Apple Pay or Google Pay - or use a retailer that defaults to ‘any card’ collection. That way you still get the Chase cashback.

That's precisely how I'd used it. Will carry on using it then for the cashback.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd agree they should be more upfront with what happens, but I disagree about it being nonsense.

The reasoning is that the main use case that people need their actual card number for is shopping online, and in that case having a card number that is different to your real card number for such purposes (often called a virtual card number) is a genuine security measure as it means if the card details get leaked / hacked then they don't get your real card number. I know Apple Pay / Google pay etc offer similar features too, and the Apple credit card (that is only available in the US) does this too. This isn't a Chase only thing by any means. I don't have a Chase account so not sure how in depth they go with it, but some other companies go further and create a different card number for each retailer or each time you want to use your card.

Not printing the number on the card is sensible. I'd be happy with that, though I think they should show the last 4 digits only as some places use this for verification, e.g. some smaller theatres where you collect at the box office. Though to be fair many of these would accept alternative ID in the right name, they don't tend to be "jobsworth" about it as the railway is.

What isn't sensible is wilfully obfuscating the fact that the number in the app isn't for the same card and not bothering to make this really, really clear to customers, which is causing lots of problems.

Monzo is much more sensible about this, letting you see the card details for the actual card but also allowing the use (on the paid accounts) of a number of virtual cards for various purposes. I only use these for rail purchases when fulfilment is to e-ticket.

 

[mangyiscute]

There isn't a shift to e-tickets in Merseyside

I'd expect them to shift to e-tickets sometime in the near future, pretty much everywhere else has e-ticket usage (the only exception i can think of is TfL) so surely it makes sense to join them. As much as people on this forum like to criticise e-tickets, in 99% of occasions they are more convenient, cheaper to produce and also better for the environment

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd expect them to shift to e-tickets sometime in the near future, pretty much everywhere else has e-ticket usage (the only exception i can think of is TfL) so surely it makes sense to join them. As much as people on this forum like to criticise e-tickets, in 99% of occasions they are more convenient, cheaper to produce and also better for the environment

I'm sure lots of people want to switch to e-tickets on Merseyside, but the band of yellow painted Luddites that is Merseyrail won't let them, probably because they're scared the takings at their booking offices will tank if they do. E-tickets are not sold for (the vast majority of) Merseyrail journeys, other than that you can get a PDFed day ticket from their website (but only that ticket).

 

[blueberry11]

[reply to below]

I think some TFL (and c2c?) users also want to switch to mobile tickets but they do not want it installed into the system which is why sometimes, retailers will not give you the option for e tickets and have to use TOD or buy at a station machine or office. It also applies if part of your journey is via the underground. And if there are no scanners, you can just ask someone to let you through?

I'm sure lots of people want to switch to e-tickets on Merseyside, but the band of yellow painted Luddites that is Merseyrail won't let them, probably because they're scared the takings at their booking offices will tank if they do. E-tickets are not sold for (the vast majority of) Merseyrail journeys, other than that you can get a PDFed day ticket from their website (but only that ticket).

 

[mangyiscute]

And if there are no scanners, you can just ask someone to let you through?

At Ealing Broadway, at least, I've never had an issue being let through with an e-ticket (no readers there since it's now TfL managed).

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'd expect them to shift to e-tickets sometime in the near future, pretty much everywhere else has e-ticket usage (the only exception i can think of is TfL) so surely it makes sense to join them. As much as people on this forum like to criticise e-tickets, in 99% of occasions they are more convenient, cheaper to produce and also better for the environment

I admire your optimism but I can't see Merseyrail joining the 21st Century any time soon. I'm a fan of e-tickets, so I avoid cross-London & journeys to Merseyside as a result. But I'm fortunate I can choose where and when I travel.

 

[sprunt]

They also then told me that they do not accept Chase debit cards at all due to Chase debit cards not being 'real' debit cards due to the lack of a number on them. They also said that they can't accept cards from online only banks as they are not actual banks.

Aside from the other issues discussed here, this bit is surely nonsense isn't it?

 

[OscarH]

Aside from the other issues discussed here, this bit is surely nonsense isn't it?

Yes, that's complete and utter nonsense

 

[zero]

Basically what happens with Chase is that they give you two cards, a physical card with no number, and a virtual card whose number you can see in the app.

For physical transactions, Chase will only show you the last 4 digits of the physical card in the app.

But you can obtain the full number, exp date and CVV of the physical card by using it on TfL and then going into the transaction on the chase app. (i.e. not that helpful for someone in Liverpool, but maybe there are other merchants chase does this for)

I haven't tried to use the physical card number online so I don't know if it will work or if you get the 1% cashback.

 

[sprunt]

So does the virtual number change every time you use it?

 

[James H]

You can also use a third party card-reading app to find out the 'real' number of your Chase card.

I did this so I could add both the physical and virtual Chase card numbers to my Airtime Rewards account

 

[zero]

So does the virtual number change every time you use it?

No

 

[Joe Paxton]

One potential workaround for the OP would be to get a Curve card - the standard 'plan' is free and the cost of the card is £5.99.

You can then link up to three payment cards (Visa or Mastercard debit or credit, not Amex) to the Curve card - you use the app to select which payment card is charged when you use the Curve card (and there is a 'Go Back in Time' feature where you can change the underlying card that gets charged for up to 30 days after the transaction).

 

[Wallsendmag]

One potential workaround for the OP would be to get a Curve card - the standard 'plan' is free and the cost of the card is £5.99.

You can then link up to three payment cards (Visa or Mastercard debit or credit, not Amex) to the Curve card - you use the app to select which payment card is charged when you use the Curve card (and there is a 'Go Back in Time' feature where you can change the underlying card that gets charged for up to 30 days after the transaction).

Or possibly use the contactless reader on a Flowbird TVM

 

[zero]

To get £5.99 of cashback from chase (to offset the curve cost) you'd need to spend £599.

A better workaround might be to use paypal, or buy a gift voucher from the TOC and then use that to buy tickets.

 

[Wallsendmag]

To get £5.99 of cashback from chase (to offset the curve cost) you'd need to spend £599.

A better workaround might be to use paypal, or buy a gift voucher from the TOC and then use that to buy tickets.

Or for the industry to offer eTicket everywhere.

 

[zero]

Or for the industry to offer eTicket everywhere.

That's a solution not a workaround!

 

[Iggy12a]

I don't know if it's just for established customers but whenever I buy online with Southern, I can collect at the TVM with any card. So a trial workaround for the Op would be to buy a ticket (just not an Advance) on Southern with the Chase card and try to collect it. If the collection fails, then the ticket would be fully refundable under what they used to call their Rainy Day Guarantee, and the Op could just purchase their intended ticket from the TVM, paying quite happily with their Chase card.

 

[contrex]

I don't believe Nat West do either.

My NatWest debit card does, recently issued. The change was that the 'long number' is now on the 'back' of the card. It is supposed to be more secure.

 

[mangyiscute]

I don't know if it's just for established customers but whenever I buy online with Southern, I can collect at the TVM with any card. So a trial workaround for the Op would be to buy a ticket (just not an Advance) on Southern with the Chase card and try to collect it. If the collection fails, then the ticket would be fully refundable under what they used to call their Rainy Day Guarantee, and the Op could just purchase their intended ticket from the TVM, paying quite happily with their Chase card.

Yeah some retailers offer any card collection, such as the forums website. I guess Southern is also one of those retailers, guessing by what you've said. I'm sure someone has a full list somewhere.

 

[AdamWW]

Yeah some retailers offer any card collection, such as the forums website. I guess Southern is also one of those retailers, guessing by what you've said. I'm sure someone has a full list somewhere.

I believe that both the retailer and the ticket machine operator can choose to allow any card collection, and if either of the ticket sale or ticket mechine is set to "any card" this overrides the other.

I thought TVMs don't read the card they certainly used to be happy with any magnetic strip card even a Nectar card

Those days are long gone!

GWR do carry some liability here as the retailer, since there is really no good reason for setting bookings to 'same card collection' nowadays, given the advent of two-step verification for card payments.

It does prevent someone who has intercepted a booking email from getting hold of your tickets, but the chances that someone would be able to obtain tickets actually useful to them in that way seems small to me.

Presumably they couldn't even usefully get a refund on them because it would go back to the card that was originally used.

 

[disunity]

Not printing the number on the card is sensible. I'd be happy with that, though I think they should show the last 4 digits only as some places use this for verification, e.g. some smaller theatres where you collect at the box office. Though to be fair many of these would accept alternative ID in the right name, they don't tend to be "jobsworth" about it as the railway is.

What isn't sensible is wilfully obfuscating the fact that the number in the app isn't for the same card and not bothering to make this really, really clear to customers, which is causing lots of problems.

Monzo is much more sensible about this, letting you see the card details for the actual card but also allowing the use (on the paid accounts) of a number of virtual cards for various purposes. I only use these for rail purchases when fulfilment is to e-ticket.

Chase show the last 4 digits of the card used on the transaction in the app.
Also when you open the app to see your card details, chase shows this when you press "returning and collecting purchases".

Chase's separate card numbers also is a great security measure if your card number (from the physical card) is taken by a rouge merchant with a card machine or someone going around and lifting card details from contactless. Online purchases with the physical number will probably fail and set off alarms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chase show the last 4 digits of the card used on the transaction in the app.

Some businesses will insist on it being printed on the card. Just printing the last 4 is not a security risk, they're on all receipts anyway.

I suspect by not printing anything they save money, as they only need to encode the cards, not print things on them.

I'm sorry, but I'd not use Chase because of this. Other banks do virtual cards better.

 

[James H]

They print the holder's name on the cards so no saving there.

I have done well out of Chase cashback. But right now there are better deals on rail tickets to maximise savings/cashback so I am not using Chase directly for rail ticket purchases

 

[Bletchleyite]

They print the holder's name on the cards so no saving there.

I have done well out of Chase cashback. But right now there are better deals on rail tickets to maximise savings/cashback so I am not using Chase directly for rail ticket purchases

On the basis that I am willing to pay for good service and a good product, I don't "chase" (ha!) cashback deals with banks but rather stick with one I like. Monzo suits at the moment, though I'd not be resistant to change to one with better features/service because their customer service isn't what it was.

This is true of ticketing sites as well. Trainline should note that I'd willingly pay their fees if they offered a decent* seat selector on all trains with seat reservations! Indeed I'd pay a couple of quid per leg *just* for seat selection.

* I do use the Trainsplit one, but as it's a semi official "bodge" it doesn't work well with some TOCs. Trainline probably have the influence to get the TOCs to play along and make sure the data is always correct.

 

[James H]

I run my finances in Monzo but use Chase for spending. More than £320 of free money so far.

I take the view that Chase cashback (more than) offsets what I spend on Monzo Plus (which is the key to my budgeting setup, and has helped me improve my financial position considerably) so I'm happy to go to the effort to work around some of Chase's quirks when it comes to things like buying TOD rail tickets

 

[Adam Williams]

Trainline probably have the influence to get the TOCs to play along

The other retailers seem just as frustrated as us with the state of things in reservation land; sorry to say!

Raileasy have written a proposal document for the train operators and RDG, with input from other retailers, so we'll see if anything changes here for seat maps in the medium term.

 

[Joe Paxton]

To get £5.99 of cashback from chase (to offset the curve cost) you'd need to spend £599.

A better workaround might be to use paypal, or buy a gift voucher from the TOC and then use that to buy tickets.

That's true, though one may find a Curve card might have a broader use case. I've got one, I don't use it a lot but it's been handy on occasions.