TheDavibob
Member
- Joined
- 10 Oct 2016
- Messages
- 407
You are absolutely right that HS2 has never published a timetable. How could they? It would be too embarrassing.
Why would they publish an actual timetable 9 years in advance?
You are absolutely right that HS2 has never published a timetable. How could they? It would be too embarrassing.
The tragic irony is that we can have everything HS2 promised, including the direct links to HS1 and Heathrow that were abandoned, and much more, for less money, if HS2 is changed to something actually worth building.
You are absolutely right that HS2 has never published a timetable. How could they? It would be too embarrassing.
The tragic irony is that we can have everything HS2 promised, including the direct links to HS1 and Heathrow that were abandoned, and much more, for less money, if HS2 is changed to something actually worth building.
What would that be, out of interest?
I suspect the dubious claims of HSUK may be trotted out shortly...
Given LesF's location is given as Coventry, which as far as I can tell is the only city to genuinely lose out from HS2 (in that it will at least lose a fast service to London and possible see a slowing of the other two), I can see why they are concerned. However, these problems do not stretch to other cities, particularly the further you get from London.
Why would they publish an actual timetable 9 years in advance?
You are absolutely right that HS2 has never published a timetable. How could they? It would be too embarrassing. Instead they hide behind unsubstantiated assertions that HS2 will be" transformational" (even though it would affect less than one per cent of UK rail journeys) and that it would "rebalance the economy" (even though it would reinforce the dominance of cities in proportion to their size, leaving others worse off). My source is a thorough study that's still in draft form. I'm making comments to the author. I'll gladly provide a link when the study is published.
Interesting that a respected rail consultant who was employed by HS2 has not been asked to do any more work since he told them it won't work.
You don't have to take my word for it: the former chair of HS2, Sir Doug Oakervee, was quoted in the Independent as saying, "Well, you can always do things differently, you can always do things better. Whether we went the right way is questionable." Shortly after, it was announced he was going on 3 months sick leave, then that he was leaving HS2.
The tragic irony is that we can have everything HS2 promised, including the direct links to HS1 and Heathrow that were abandoned, and much more, for less money, if HS2 is changed to something actually worth building.
I'd never heard about HSUK before now. Looked it up. Haven't laughed so much in ages. It's at least £200bn.
Not only is it £200bn it is also impossible. Clearly the person/people that made it live near the ECML in the North
Building any railway is possible - at a price.
I wouldn't be surprised if one of the protagonists lives not unadjecent to the route of HS2 in the Chilterns...
I'd never heard about HSUK before now. Looked it up. Haven't laughed so much in ages. It's at least £200bn.
Given LesF's location is given as Coventry, which as far as I can tell is the only city to genuinely lose out from HS2 (in that it will at least lose a fast service to London and possible see a slowing of the other two), I can see why they are concerned. However, these problems do not stretch to other cities, particularly the further you get from London.
Stoke fought hard to get an HS2 station and lost.
Wolves and Walsall will be effectively cut off from HS2 and existing services are due to be cut.
Derby will not be connected to Toton unless existing services are rerouted there, taking longer.
Sheffield objected to Meadowhall and only succeeded in losing HS2 altogether. Victoria is the right place.
Leicester don't seem to realise how little use Toton will be to them. They probably accept HS2 because the carrot of MML electrification is dangled before them, but it'll probably never happen since GW electrification has been such a disappointment.
The poor links between East and West Midlands will not be improved by HS2.
It never ceases to amaze my how enthusiasts make excuses for HS2 when to anyone prepared to look objectively at it, it's clearly a complete lemon. Transformational? Mending the north-south divide? Get real folks.
And remember that HS2's sums include the £8.3bn they plan to save by CUTTING existing services. If they were not cut there would be no saving. They can't have it both ways.
And remember that HS2's sums include the £8.3bn they plan to save by CUTTING existing services. If they were not cut there would be no saving. They can't have it both ways.
The poor links between East and West Midlands will not be improved by HS2.
Stoke While they won't get an HS2 station, they also won't see a reduction in services though, just a slowing down (which I get is an issue, just not as big a one as at Coventry).
So that's alright then. HS2 is supposed improve the railway, not make it worse.
Wolves I get, Walsall though? I get that Curzon Street won't be terribly well connected[/B], but there will [/B]still be a valid interchange there.
Nothing is terribly well connected when it depends on segregated terminus stations and parkways miles outside the towns they're supposed to serve.
My understanding is that Derby will gain a direct Toton service, along with Nottingham, thus connecting both cities effectively to HS2. These plans are quite far in the future.
Yes, and it will take longer.A minister told parliament how much quicker it would be from Nottingham to London by HS2. But he didn't allow any time for the change at Toton or the fact that MML is due for speed improvements and electrification. In truth, there would be no point in changing at Toton if you can do the journey without changing. Parkways suck commerce out of the towns they're supposed to serve by making it easier to get out of town by car to the parkway than it is to get into the town.
But Sheffield will be getting 2 direct classic-compatible services onto HS2 from Midland station. Sure, they won't have a dedicated HS2 station (although there is still talk of Sheffield Parkway). The added cost of getting a railway line to Victoria would eliminate any benefit of going that way, when using classic compatible trains is much easier.
Victoria is on the way to Woodhead, the only route that links Manch/ L'pool to Leeds and Sheffield. Lord Adonis advocated a trans-Pennine element to HS2 before HS2 was set up. He didn't get it. Victoria is close to Sheffield centre and to the Midland line so an interchange can be created there.
Yeah, but they'll still have 4 tph to St Pancras, taking about an hour. Leicester just isn't that far from London. That's like saying Cambridge won't benefit from HS2. It's true, but not relevant.
If HS2 can't serve all the cities along the route it isn't worth building.
Possibly, although hopefully getting Pendos off the mainline will free up capacity at places like New Street which could be used by more E-W regional trains.
I certainly don't expect it to do any of those things. I expected it to relieve capacity on the WCML, allowing local passengers better access to railway services along its axis, with some limited capacity relief to the ECML once HS2 trains get there - again, allowing more capacity for more local services.
Source please. Not that I don't believe you, just I haven't seen that figure anywhere and was wondering where you got it from.
Victoria is on the way to Woodhead, the only route that links Manch/ L'pool to Leeds and Sheffield. Lord Adonis advocated a trans-Pennine element to HS2 before HS2 was set up. He didn't get it. Victoria is close to Sheffield centre and to the Midland line so an interchange can be created there.
So that's alright then. HS2 is supposed improve the railway, not make it worse.
Nothing is terribly well connected when it depends on segregated terminus stations and parkways miles outside the towns they're supposed to serve.
Yes, and it will take longer.A minister told parliament how much quicker it would be from Nottingham to London by HS2. But he didn't allow any time for the change at Toton or the fact that MML is due for speed improvements and electrification. In truth, there would be no point in changing at Toton if you can do the journey without changing. Parkways suck commerce out of the towns they're supposed to serve by making it easier to get out of town by car to the parkway than it is to get into the town.
Victoria is on the way to Woodhead, the only route that links Manch/ L'pool to Leeds and Sheffield. Lord Adonis advocated a trans-Pennine element to HS2 before HS2 was set up. He didn't get it. Victoria is close to Sheffield centre and to the Midland line so an interchange can be created there.
If HS2 can't serve all the cities along the route it isn't worth building.
Figures taken from Supporting Report - Economic Case appraisal - full network
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-economic-case-october-2013
Last page under "Classic line savings". The first figure is for phase 1, the second includes phase 2. Priced at 2011 so the figures will be higher now.
Staff -£1,358m -£2,059m
Electricity -£515m -£759m
Diesel -£2m £m
Lease Cost -£1,538m -£2,254m
Maintenance -£1,365m -£1,667m
All Other -£898m -£1,526m
Add up the second column and you get £8.3bn. If new services were to be added to utilise the released capacity there would be no saving, so it's dishonest to claim both.
This is only the money side of it. I'll find the schedule of reduced services so you can see the damage HS2 would do to the network. I mentioned a short list of damaged stations. When you see the full list you'll understand the scale of destruction.
If HS2 can't serve all the cities along the route it isn't worth building.
HS2 doesn't serve Milton Keynes (obviously) which, for all intents and purposes, counts as a city on the route. Of course, MK benefits hugely from it being built.
HS2 doesn't serve Lichfield (a city, by name at least) despite running straight past it. Of course, Lichfield benefits from HS2 being built (with capacity relief allowing for a doubling of the semi-fast, almost certainly).
HS2 doesn't go anywhere at all near Cambridge, but of course, Cambridge benefits from HS2 being built (by virtue of ECML trains being free to run to somewhere that isn't Kings Cross).
The only city that seems to genuinely suffer (and not Stockport-style suffering, where granted they lose fast trains but, via a change at Piccadilly or a short jaunt to the Airport gain a massive time saving) is Coventry. And frankly, that's partially because Coventry is currently abusing it's position on the fast line to Birmingham and getting services it doesn't, on it's own merits, justify. That said, the freeing up of seats on the slightly-slower fasts from Coventry to Euston (and New Street) will make the journeys more comfortable (and maybe even cheaper) so it isn't entirely bad.
Has anybody seen Curzon Street's location in Brum? Despite being surrounded by fancy buildings it's an absolute hole at the bottom of a steep hill. The connection to New Street is over several very busy roads and either through the packed Bullring/Selfridges shopping centres or underground in beggars' alley. The Woodman pub is a saving grace but the area outside permanently smells of yoofs smoking weed and you have to dodge all the skateboarders outside the science museum. The pastoral area of Aston is around the corner so don't be getting lost as you leave the station.
The tram will take a circuitous route to/from Eastside and I suspect a lot of Londoners will stick to the WCML rather than use HS2 because of this. There cannot be a travellator because of the hills and main bus 'station' outside Moor Street.
Regarding Coventry, I would like to see less 350s stopping at all the halts, farms and villages on the WCML and more fast train stops at places like Northampton, MK and Rugby. I don't personally see a reduction of services to Coventry anyway - there is an extra platform being constructed right now after all. Peak services to and from Brum are very busy - can't comment on London bound much.
Has anybody seen Curzon Street's location in Brum? Despite being surrounded by fancy buildings it's an absolute hole at the bottom of a steep hill. The connection to New Street is over several very busy roads and either through the packed Bullring/Selfridges shopping centres or underground in beggars' alley. The Woodman pub is a saving grace but the area outside permanently smells of yoofs smoking weed and you have to dodge all the skateboarders outside the science museum. The pastoral area of Aston is around the corner so don't be getting lost as you leave the station.
The tram will take a circuitous route to/from Eastside and I suspect a lot of Londoners will stick to the WCML rather than use HS2 because of this. There cannot be a travellator because of the hills and main bus 'station' outside Moor Street.
Regarding Coventry, I would like to see less 350s stopping at all the halts, farms and villages on the WCML and more fast train stops at places like Northampton, MK and Rugby. I don't personally see a reduction of services to Coventry anyway - there is an extra platform being constructed right now after all. Peak services to and from Brum are very busy - can't comment on London bound much.
However, anyone wanting use the local services that run through/to Moor Street will be significantly better off than they are at present.
The HS2 station being consistently referred to as Curzon St has IMHO been one of the more ridiculous decisions of DfT and their subsidiary organisations.
It just allows regular whinges about the excess distance to somewhere completely irrelevant to passengers. Referring all along to Moor St High Speed station would have been the obvious solution that reflects where the entrance is.
Yup, especially if the Camp Hill lines are opened up, and the regional cross-country services diverted to Moor Street.
My only real gripe with Curzon Street is the lack of access to Birmingham locals (i.e. the Cross-City line and Chase Line). This is further compounded by the fact that the Cross-City runs past Curzon Street now (as do various other lines, but longer distance). I imagine the biggest stumbling block to just plonking a pair of new platforms down is that people would use it as a Curzon-New Street shuttle, thereby ruining the cross-city completely.
The HS2 station being consistently referred to as Curzon St has IMHO been one of the more ridiculous decisions of DfT and their subsidiary organisations.
It just allows regular whinges about the excess distance to somewhere completely irrelevant to passengers. Referring all along to Moor St High Speed station would have been the obvious solution that reflects where the entrance is.