Removal of class 175s from North West routes - shortsighted?

[Philip]

Going back to the original thread title I know the moving of the 175's rankle with some in the North West but you have to remember we had a period from the Hatfield accident up to Adonis's arrival where the Govt/SRA/DfT just tried to keep a lid on the railways and keep them out the news. Long term planning was thrown out the window and they were essentially in denial about passenger growth a lot of mistakes that are still with us were made. It wasn't just the North West that suffered.

Talking of 175's and their routes from Manchester to N Wales or Manchester/Cardiff to West Wales or Holyhead to Cardiff we forget that the busiest Long Distance DMU route ATW operate is the Shrewsbury to BHM INTL end of the Holyhead/Cambrian trains.
Its the only route they operate 6 car DMU formations and most trains are 4 car DMU's east of Shrewsbury. ATW's into/out Birmingham trains are far busier than their Manchester or Cardiff long distance trains.

I've often wondered why this is. On paper it looks fairly similar to the Manchester-Chester (and North Wales) route, yet this one copes well with a 3-coach 175, in the main.. Are Telford and Shrewsbury much bigger centres of population than Warrington and Chester respectively?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've often wondered why this is. On paper it looks fairly similar to the Manchester-Chester (and North Wales) route, yet this one copes well with a 3-coach 175, in the main.. Are Telford and Shrewsbury much bigger centres of population than Warrington and Chester respectively?

chester & Warringtons London traffic doesn't go on the 175's to Manchester whereas Shrewsbury and Telfords goes mainly on the ATW 158's to Birmingham for a start.

 

[craigybagel]

How do the 17:30 and 18:30 services cope?

17:30 is booked for a 3 car. Even as such it's usually got people standing as far as Wilmslow, and occasionally even as far as Crewe. After Nantwich though loadings fall off a cliff, and by Shrewsbury a 153 would be big enough to fit everyone on. 18:30 is similar, F&S as far as Wilmslow but is booked for a 2 car. On the rare occasions it gets a 3 car it usually has seats left leaving Manchester

I've often wondered why this is. On paper it looks fairly similar to the Manchester-Chester (and North Wales) route, yet this one copes well with a 3-coach 175, in the main.. Are Telford and Shrewsbury much bigger centres of population than Warrington and Chester respectively?

There are more alternatives in the Manchester route - both in terms of destination (Chester and Liverpool see a large flow towards Liverpool as well as Manchester, whilst Shrewsbury and Telford's main flow is towards Birmingham) and services for the intermediate stations (I would assume most people at Warrington would use the CLC line through Warrington Central, whereas at Telford the ATW service is the fastest service to Birmingham).

 

[Gareth Marston]

17:30 is booked for a 3 car. Even as such it's usually got people standing as far as Wilmslow, and occasionally even as far as Crewe. After Nantwich though loadings fall off a cliff, and by Shrewsbury a 153 would be big enough to fit everyone on. 18:30 is similar, F&S as far as Wilmslow but is booked for a 2 car. On the rare occasions it gets a 3 car it usually has seats left leaving Manchester



There are more alternatives in the Manchester route - both in terms of destination (Chester and Liverpool see a large flow towards Liverpool as well as Manchester, whilst Shrewsbury and Telford's main flow is towards Birmingham) and services for the intermediate stations (I would assume most people at Warrington would use the CLC line through Warrington Central, whereas at Telford the ATW service is the fastest service to Birmingham).

The NEC, car parking is more expensive at Birmingham Airport, feeding in to XC bib, the new Bullring are all factors plus the SRA stripped out services west of Wolverhampton in 2006 forcing passengers onto the ATW trains etc

 

[6Gman]

I've only had 5 175 rides in the last year. All of which involved Shrewsbury to Manchester at non peak times or going counter flow. The 1630 from Poccadily was a 2 car a couple of Saturday's ago and there were people standing rest of time ok. I've ridden the 1630 on weekday when it's been 3 car in the past and overcrowded.

I was on the 1630 ex-Manchester a couple of weeks ago. It was snug, with lots of complaints along the lines of "You'd think they'd put on an extra carriage" (it was a 2car).

Everybody was seated by the time we left Stockport and you could pick your seat from Crewe ...

My experience on the Marches is that trains often have standing passengers BUT ...

1. There are often more empty seats than standing passengers, but being British we can't possibly sit next someone to whom we have not been formally introduced
2. When there are more passengers than seats individual passengers only need to stand for short periods e.g. train may leave Hereford with people standing, but many alight at Leominster so the standing passengers can take their seats. Those boarding at Leominster may need to stand to Ludlow, but then get seats etc. etc. Not sure many end up standing (say) Newport to Crewe - except by choice!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I was on the 1630 ex-Manchester a couple of weeks ago. It was snug, with lots of complaints along the lines of "You'd think they'd put on an extra carriage" (it was a 2car).

Everybody was seated by the time we left Stockport and you could pick your seat from Crewe ...

My experience on the Marches is that trains often have standing passengers BUT ...

1. There are often more empty seats than standing passengers, but being British we can't possibly sit next someone to whom we have not been formally introduced
2. When there are more passengers than seats individual passengers only need to stand for short periods e.g. train may leave Hereford with people standing, but many alight at Leominster so the standing passengers can take their seats. Those boarding at Leominster may need to stand to Ludlow, but then get seats etc. etc. Not sure many end up standing (say) Newport to Crewe - except by choice!

One thing I've noted recently is that the luggage space is not very good on them having taken a larger suitcase on them which I haven't done previously. aTW's 158's are laid out better.

 

[Bevan Price]

In general, 175s are a lot more reliable. 158s are much more prone to little niggly faults that won't stop the job completely but are a pain to deal with as a guard (the air con is a prime example, but there are many others). It is true that when fully working a 158 does give a better passenger experience than a 175, but only because they've been refurbished - bar the seats being recovered, the 175s have basically not been touched since new. If they get refurbished to the same high standard the 158s got, they'll be a much better experience.


.

In terms of passenger experience, I would rate the 175s as easily the best dmus in UK. Yes - they might need new seat upholstery, but they have comfortable seats and adequate legroom. Much better than any 158 I have travelled upon. I hope that any future "refurbishment" does not mean cramming in more seats.

The main problem is that they are mostly too short - they should all have been at least 3 coaches, and some 4 coach sets would have been useful.

Replacement of 175s (3 coach) by 185s on Manchester - Blackpool / Barrow services was a bad idea - a reduction of about 40 seats (standard class) on trains that were already overcrowded at peak hours.