RENFE considering London to Barcelona (and perhaps beyond) services

[cphilb]

When I first read about this in Spain in Spanish newspapers some months ago, the initial plan was for Renfe to run trains purely between London and Paris. It may however have changed in the meantime.

 

[RT4038]

When I first read about this in Spain in Spanish newspapers some months ago, the initial plan was for Renfe to run trains purely between London and Paris. It may however have changed in the meantime.

And good luck to them. If they could find a way of running a Barcelona-Paris competitive service into the Gard du Nord, and do a 'Paris shuffle' rather than a 'Lille Shuffle' then they could possibly (cheaply) gauge the demand for through service.

 

[paul1609]

Yep, that is a complete dream. Even with a high speed line all the way (ie completion of Montepllier - Perpignan and Madrid - Lisbon) it wouldn’t be less than 11 hours by a 320km/h capable train, and the best part of 24hrs on a sleeper.

Or 2hrs from Gatwick.

I've done Ashford to Barcelona three times by rail, twice changing off the south of France Eurostar at Lyon and once via Paris. Even as an enthusiast by mid afternoon it's become a tedious drag akin to Flying to Australia where you are just counting down the hours to the destination. On the return I've always used easyJet on the grounds that you get an extra day in Barcelona. With the Ashford stops loss I've flown both ways to avoid the trains central London Faff.

 

[AdamWW]

I expect having UKBF and Spanish equivalent, plus security and sealed off platform, for one train a day at Barcelona would be grotesquely expensive per passenger and sink the train economically.

I'm not going to suggest a Barcelona to London service is likely because I don't think it is.

But I would have thought that the airport style system operated at stations like Barcelona for high speed services (go through security, wait in the departures lounge, queue up at the gate and go down to the platform just before departure) would make this sort of thing a little less impractical than most stations, where passengers are generally free to wander round the platforms as they see fit.

 

[telstarbox]

That isn't a border though so it's much quicker.

 

[zwk500]

Currently there is no direct london service to any South of France destinations. There was a summer service to some of them until COVID, so while demand is unlikely to be massive, it is similarly unlikely to be particularly small.

COVID slightly obscured the fact that there was also a 5-year EU fund for new rail passenger routes that expired for the London-Avignon route (not sure if it could/would have been renewed regardless of economic or political climate)

Running some parts of the route with empty seats isn't a disaster either (for example, at least half the train is empty on Amsterdam-Brussels for London-bound trains), so selling say half a train to london from Barcelona, with the other half filled with tickets from the south-of-France, Lille and disney stops, plus some tickets between those points (so not going to London) could possibly be economic. Lille offers connection opportunities as well.

Eurostar only run the dutch trains half-empty due to passenger capacity issues at the Dutch lounges. Eurostar have announced they intend to pursue London-Rotterdam-Amsterdam only trains if the paths can be found. Kicking people out halfway has been tried before (Brussels-Lille is a popular commuter market) and eventually I think Eurostar just gave up with it.

The suggestion was to check passports while boarding (with UKBF and spanish equivalent) at Barcelona, so no need for a Lille shuffle if going for that option (and that is the advantage). I agree that filling a train completely (or at least sufficiently for it to be economic to run) with end-to-end traffic only will be a challenge.

This may be feasible but will cause a lot of operational headaches at intermediate stations (you could run non-stop from Barcelona if the Driver can manage it of course).

And as I stated earlier, I think there are other cities that are more likely to have a sufficiently large market for london connections, including Geneva. Barcelona is, in my view, by far the likeliest candidate out of all the options on the Iberian peninsula - as it is the closest major city that is popular for visits to/from the uk

I'd say Cologne/Frankfurt, then Geneva. Barcelona would come lower than Southern or Western France IMHO, although I agree it's the most likely of any on the Iberian peninsular.

 

[Bald Rick]

So I stand by what I wrote - but I know I will not convince anyone, because there is a fundamental belief on this forum that long-distance international day trains cannot work, despite plenty of evidence that they do

Long-distance international day trains do work, primarily because….

… they are primarily filled by passengers travelling between intermediate stations, many of which would not have direct services otherwise; and very often, there are no competitive flights available. These trains are not mainly used by end-to-end users (a very important difference to night trains). For instance, the Paris - Barcelona trains carry many people from Paris to the South of France and from the South of France to Spain.

Until such time that our country grows a pair and joins Schengen, there wont be any long distance (over 7hrs) trains from London.

I'd say Cologne/Frankfurt, then Geneva. Barcelona would come lower than Southern or Western France IMHO, although I agree it's the most likely of any on the Iberian peninsular.

I‘d say back to South & West France first - Provence and Aquitane. Then Geneva, the market is much bugger than Köln / Frankfurt.

But yes, Barcelona is frankly very very unlikely. Even though the Motpellier - Beziers LGV is now approved, it will be another decade before its open (all 30 miles of it) and 2040 before it is open to Perpignan. Until then it would be at least 8hrs from St Pancras.

 

[paul1609]

Long-distance international day trains do work, primarily because….




Until such time that our country grows a pair and joins Schengen, there wont be any long distance (over 7hrs) trains from London.




I‘d say back to South & West France first - Provence and Aquitane. Then Geneva, the market is much bugger than Köln / Frankfurt.

But yes, Barcelona is frankly very very unlikely. Even though the Motpellier - Beziers LGV is now approved, it will be another decade before its open (all 30 miles of it) and 2040 before it is open to Perpignan. Until then it would be at least 8hrs from St Pancras.

Did the South of France trains ever cover their costs? I would have thought not by a wide margin. Both times I used them they weren't exactly crowded out and I alighted at Lyon with single figures of other passengers. I never used the northbound service.

 

[AdamWW]

The "Maple Leaf" rail service between New York and Toronto seems to load fairly well at least in the summer, from what I've seen looking at the Amtrak booking engine's "how full the train is" information.

Travel time is over 12 hours, and that includes everybody getting out of the train with their luggage at Niagara to go through customs and immigration, so not entirely unlike having to do the same at Lille. (Admittedly no security check, but at least in Lille you go through passport control indoors). And the station building in Niagara Falls doesn't really have the capacity for a trainload waiting to get back on.

I don't know how many people do the full trip as opposed to just bits of it, but in a place where driving or flying are the normal choices they still seem to find enough people to make running it worthwhile.

Obviously North America is very different from Europe in many ways, but it's still the case that it's a lot quicker to fly and I suspect flights are also competitive in cost.

 

[Bald Rick]

Re Eurostars covering their cost on the Provence / Marseille servcies: I believe they did, but not by much. The market is relatively small - people with places out there tend to drive in my experience (especially Provence). The combined total air capacity to Marseille / Montpellier / Nimes woudl fill about 2 eurostars on a summer Saturday, less in the week.

 

[Austriantrain]

Until such time that our country grows a pair and joins Schengen, there wont be any long distance (over 7hrs) trains from London.

I wasn't trying to say that I think the plans are realistic. Just that I don't consider them as completely absurd as others here (well, London - Lisbon *is* absurd, London - Barcelona with a Lille shuffle much less so - I don't think it will happen either though, someone would need to be very dedicated, and neither SNCF nor RENFE are known for it).

 

[edwin_m]

I am sure E* would be under pressure to do so, at both ends, but with the mother of all arguments over capacity and fair contribution towards costs. That argument could delay things quite a while.

Under EU law and the equivalent retained in the UK, I would expect accounting separation of infrastructure costs so there is a transparent charge made to the train operator for use of the facilities. This provides the basis to ensure fair charging for a future competitor.

Unless/until the UK attitude to border control and security changes (which isn't going to happen), I see very limited scope for through service beyond existing destinations. Not only would they require those facilities at every station served, this effectively means they can't be used for intermediate journeys that prop up the economics of pretty much every international train service with the exception of Eurostar and perhaps Thalys. If everyone has to alight and re-board then they might as well just change trains onto a connecting service. I suggest the best that could be hoped for would be a Barcelona-Lille with Brussels/Amsterdam and London connections there.

 

[Austriantrain]

Unless/until the UK attitude to border control and security changes (which isn't going to happen), I see very limited scope for through service beyond existing destinations. Not only would they require those facilities at every station served, this effectively means they can't be used for intermediate journeys that prop up the economics of pretty much every international train service with the exception of Eurostar and perhaps Thalys. If everyone has to alight and re-board then they might as well just change trains onto a connecting service. I suggest the best that could be hoped for would be a Barcelona-Lille with Brussels/Amsterdam and London connections there.

Well at least in Barcelona, they already have security controls.

But I fully agree. Much better connections at Lille and Brussels with much easier through ticketing should be the way forward.

Sad though. Pretty much every interconnection TGV coming from Brussels would start from London instead (or at least a portion of it) if the problems were not what they are, since London is the much much bigger market.

 

[ivanhoe]

In order to collect as much fare income as possible, the trains would have to call at Paris. Is it possible to run Lille-Paris-Lyon and beyond?

 

[paul1609]

I wasn't trying to say that I think the plans are realistic. Just that I don't consider them as completely absurd as others here (well, London - Lisbon *is* absurd, London - Barcelona with a Lille shuffle much less so - I don't think it will happen either though, someone would need to be very dedicated, and neither SNCF nor RENFE are known for it).

I would say that even if you could run a direct London to Barcelona service without the issues already discussed the clientelle would be limited to the bottom end of the market. The reason is because if you get an early flight down with Easyjet from Gatwick you can be in las Ramblas for lunch easily. if you get an early morning Eurostar you can check in to your hotel just about in time for dinner. On the reverse trip its even worse an extra day in Spain or all daytravelling to arrive in Central London early evening. Given that the flight will likely be much cheaper its a very small market indeed.

 

[30907]

In order to collect as much fare income as possible, the trains would have to call at Paris. Is it possible to run Lille-Paris-Lyon and beyond?

Yes, in theory, but whichever Paris station you used (Nord would have the advantage of having the check-in facilities) it would be a massive deviation off the direct route via the Interconnexion. A stop at CDG airport would suffice, pending the reconstructive surgery suggested in post #37 by Bald Rick

Seriously, if RENFE did head past Paris I would have thought Lille-Brussels-Amsterdam might be as good an objective.

 

[AdamWW]

If everyone has to alight and re-board then they might as well just change trains onto a connecting service. I suggest the best that could be hoped for would be a Barcelona-Lille with Brussels/Amsterdam and London connections there.

Unlike a connecting service you don't have to worry about missing it if there are delays.
And it's only in one direction.

 

[WessexEclectic]

Many years ago on these pages i costed up a likely price of a one way sleeper from London to Barcelona / Madrid (such that the operator would make a profit) and it was £500 one way.

Does this price include the murder mystery?

 

[TheSmiths82]

I used to get the train to Barcelona once a year so this route would be brilliantly for me, but I suspect it would be too expensive. I used to get the train to Paris, then get a night train towards Perpignan then catching a train from there into Spain. Sadly it has all become too expensive for me these days

I think perhaps a train to Barcelona might be a bit too long, although do Marseille to Manchester on three trains and that look just shy of 13 hours in total. I think with good facilities onboard, an 800 odd mile train journey to Barcelona from London could be very doable. Customs might be an issue, but as longs as the Brits have been cleared in London I don't see why the custom checks don't need to me anymore than they are already. Occasionally the police do get on at the French/Spanish border but we did have to show our passports on a coach once from Barcelona to Marseille.

 

[AdamWW]

I used to get the train to Barcelona once a year so this route would be brilliantly for me, but I suspect it would be too expensive. I used to get the train to Paris, then get a night train towards Perpignan then catching a train from there into Spain. Sadly it has all become too expensive for me these days

I did Barcelona to Paris via Latour de Carole last year.

I forget how much the first leg was - but it's run as a suburban train despite the distance and it wasn't very expensive.
The overnight train of course has demand pricing - it cost me 94 Euros for a 2nd class couchette berth - that was for travel on a Friday night at fairly short notice. I think midweek was a lot cheaper though admittedly this wasn't in the summer.

Eurostar for the Paris to London bit of course can be reasonably good value so long as you can book a fair way in advance.

Cheaper to fly? Almost certainly, even with luggage. Also a lot faster and less exposure to the risk of strikes on the way and not everyone wants to share a couchette compartment with strangers. But for those who will do such a thing (and they didn't seem to have trouble filling a train with them) it doesn't seem to be prohibitively expensive.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I did Barcelona to Paris via Latour de Carole last year.

I forget how much the first leg was - but it's run as a suburban train despite the distance and it wasn't very expensive.
The overnight train of course has demand pricing - it cost me 94 Euros for a 2nd class couchette berth - that was for travel on a Friday night at fairly short notice. I think midweek was a lot cheaper though admittedly this wasn't in the summer.

Eurostar for the Paris to London bit of course can be reasonably good value so long as you can book a fair way in advance.

Cheaper to fly? Almost certainly, even with luggage. Also a lot faster and less exposure to the risk of strikes on the way and not everyone wants to share a couchette compartment with strangers. But for those who will do such a thing (and they didn't seem to have trouble filling a train with them) it doesn't seem to be prohibitively expensive.

I used to stay just sleep on the normal coaches but I didn't always feel that safe because some of the towns in the south of France it stops at can be a bit dodgy, I witnessed a fight on one and even since then I have just got day time trains and spent the night in France. I used to always get the coach too. I don't like flying and love Spain and the South of France hence this service interests me a lot.

 

[Snow1964]

In order to collect as much fare income as possible, the trains would have to call at Paris. Is it possible to run Lille-Paris-Lyon and beyond?

Yes there are spurs off interconnection line into both Gare de Nord and Gare de Lyon, but would need to reverse there.

It is also possible to take the Est line towards Strasbourg and onwards towards Munich etc

The alternative is the airport or Chessy (Disney) both of which have RER lines through Paris

 

[zwk500]

I might note that a third-party operator may well have a very good case under EU competition law to force E* to give access to their station facilities on the French side. I would think that UK law would be similar (and even if not, the European Commission will not be shy to go after E* because of St Pancras, since it affects the Common Market).

On this point, I'm fairly sure HS1 ltd own the border facilities at the stations and anybody can apply to use them, subject to capacity being found. The HS1 Station Access Conditions are here: https://highspeed1.co.uk/regulatory/access-new-operators and it's not exclusive to Eurostar so nobody would need to take E* to court to gain access.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yes, in theory, but whichever Paris station you used (Nord would have the advantage of having the check-in facilities) it would be a massive deviation off the direct route via the Interconnexion. A stop at CDG airport would suffice, pending the reconstructive surgery suggested in post #37 by Bald Rick

Seriously, if RENFE did head past Paris I would have thought Lille-Brussels-Amsterdam might be as good an objective.

It seems to me that the problems mentioned make through trains London to/from the far south unlikely in the foreseeable future. For some directions, the same-station interchange in Brussels is fine (though of course more diverse through services eastwards would be good). But for south-east and south, the station change in Paris is a pain for many people (though Nord-Est is fine of course). This logic, for me, means that the most likely option which would work with longer-distance HS connections is one where the formalities before getting the London-bound train are at an interchange station (hence no worse than a journey with a change anyway, except needing a longer connection time of course). And this all points to Lille. Frequent London-Lille services, combined with a good selection of long-distance trains from (or calling at) Lille - including as far as Barcelona, Geneva, maybe northern Italy - would perhaps generate good patronage. I'd be likely to use them, to avoid crossing Paris, anyway.

Also, if the expanding European night-train network included services via Lille, that would be useful. If future sleepers between Paris and northern Germany / Denmark / Scandiwegia called at Lille, and ditto between Brussels and Italy, say, that would also attract me.

 

[zwk500]

It seems to me that the problems mentioned make through trains London to/from the far south unlikely in the foreseeable future. For some directions, the same-station interchange in Brussels is fine (though of course more diverse through services eastwards would be good).

its workable but the brussels lounge cam get cramped even for 1tp2h so I agree you really want more coming from further afield to ease the pressure on the lounge.

But for south-east and south, the station change in Paris is a pain for many people (though Nord-Est is fine of course). This logic, for me, means that the most likely option which would work with longer-distance HS connections is one where the formalities before getting the London-bound train are at an interchange station (hence no worse than a journey with a change anyway, except needing a longer connection time of course). And this all points to Lille. Frequent London-Lille services, combined with a good selection of long-distance trains from (or calling at) Lille - including as far as Barcelona, Geneva, maybe northern Italy - would perhaps generate good patronage. I'd be likely to use them, to avoid crossing Paris, anyway.

part of the problem with this is that the internal schengen market for Lille-south travel isn't that big and while it works going outwards it's much less smooth coming back to London. Not to mention LGV Nord is very busy and the key paths on it are ones that go to Paris. Personally I think the most sensible way to serve a London-Barcelona market would be to restart the Avignon trains and focus the interchange there. At least then the border formalities are relatively early in the journey, rather than forcing an awkward break only 1h30 from the end.

Also, if the expanding European night-train network included services via Lille, that would be useful. If future sleepers between Paris and northern Germany / Denmark / Scandiwegia called at Lille, and ditto between Brussels and Italy, say, that would also attract me.

Tbh a Brussels call and a good Eurostar from London connecting in would be fine for sleepers head east. Lille would be the interchange for southern France sleepers, but Spain and Italy people will fly unless they are diehard 'must use trains'.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I expect having UKBF and Spanish equivalent, plus security and sealed off platform, for one train a day at Barcelona would be grotesquely expensive per passenger and sink the train economically.

It wouldn't have to be sealed off permanently, as demonstrated at Amsterdam for Eurostar services, which uses a moveable barrier to free up the platform when Eurostar isn't calling. If it were workable you might be able to get some Border Force staff from the UK consulate in Barcelona down to Sants for a couple of hours to do the checks but I don't know how many, if any, BF staff are based in consulates.

Another point is that there is potential to beat out the SNCF/Renfe service by saving time using the LGV Contournement, which bypasses Nîmes and Montpellier, and stop at the parkway stations there. The existing Paris-Barcelona service uses the classic line so you could compete with that service on timings to gain more intermediate travellers, and then run via the Orbital LGV, possibly stopping at Marne-la-Vallée-Chessy for Disneyland, and then whack straight up to Lille and the Chunnel.

 

[railfan99]

So I stand by what I wrote - but I know I will not convince anyone, because there is a fundamental belief on this forum that long-distance international day trains cannot work, despite plenty of evidence that they do (because they do run, and their number is rather on the increase).

I've not forgotten a year ago, my wife and I travelled on the midmorning (IIRC 1014 hours) Paris to Girona (that continued to Barcelona) and on departure from Paris we had c.500 passengers.

More than an A380 worth. Yes, the train is low frequency but it's not as if it had 30 users, and there were many more at intermediate stations. Of course not everyone was travelling the full distance.

 

[edwin_m]

I've not forgotten a year ago, my wife and I travelled on the midmorning (IIRC 1014 hours) Paris to Girona (that continued to Barcelona) and on departure from Paris we had c.500 passengers.

More than an A380 worth. Yes, the train is low frequency but it's not as if it had 30 users, and there were many more at intermediate stations. Of course not everyone was travelling the full distance.

And how many were travelling from London?

 

[Bald Rick]

I've not forgotten a year ago, my wife and I travelled on the midmorning (IIRC 1014 hours) Paris to Girona (that continued to Barcelona) and on departure from Paris we had c.500 passengers.

More than an A380 worth. Yes, the train is low frequency but it's not as if it had 30 users, and there were many more at intermediate stations. Of course not everyone was travelling the full distance.

Interesting - thats about what I’d expect.

Paris - Barcelona 2 x direct trains a day, taking 6.5-7hrs, vs around 16 flights a day taking less than 2hrs, I’d expect rail market share to be in the region of 10%, so around 120 - 140 people per train making the trip throughout. Given the trains are also providing direct links from Paris - Valence / Montpellier / Occitane coastal towns, most of those 500 on board departing Paris would have been for stations in France.

Translating that to a London - Barca service: 9hrs or so vs flight time of c2hrs and 25 flights a day, I’d expect market share to be sub 5% ie around 150-200 people a day each way. No where near enough to fill even one train, and would therefore have to have intermediate stops which therefore requires a Lille shiffle or equivalent on the way back, which makes the journey time 10hrs+ on the way back, which further reduces competitveness, etc.

 

[railfan99]

Interesting - thats about what I’d expect.

Paris - Barcelona 2 x direct trains a day, taking 6.5-7hrs, vs around 16 flights a day taking less than 2hrs, I’d expect rail market share to be in the region of 10%, so around 120 - 140 people per train making the trip throughout. Given the trains are also providing direct links from Paris - Valence / Montpellier / Occitane coastal towns, most of those 500 on board departing Paris would have been for stations in France.

Your market share comment may be accurate, but it's a fallacy that a 'flight takes less than two hours' if one is measuring door-to-door times.

With the TGV, one could arrive at its Paris or Barcelona stations (notwithstanding luggage check at latter) say 20 minutes before scheduled departure (in Paris, the barrier gates never seem to open much more than 15 minutes prior), so let's say 30-40 minutes to be on the safe side.

With air, one might have to arrive 1.5 to 2 hours prior to scheduled departure.

While not everyone is bound for the CBDs of cities, airports also tend to have lengthy travelling times to reach or leave. That's additional total journey time as well.