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RENFE considering London to Barcelona (and perhaps beyond) services

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TheSmiths82

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Could the capacity of the Eurostar service increase if they can find an additional terminus for trains to Spain/Germany etc? I know part of the issue at the moment is that the border control capacity at St Pancras is too small to handle the volume of traffic due to the new Brexit rules.
 
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Bald Rick

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If they built the service up into a mini-hub at Lille it might be more appealing. Trains coming from UK, BE and DE, and onward connections to three or four trains going to different Alpine valleys.

AIUI, there’s not much in the way of ski trains to any of the other ski valleys in France.
 

mad_rich

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AIUI, there’s not much in the way of ski trains to any of the other ski valleys in France.
There's direct TGVs from Paris to Maurienne and Oulx (when there's no landslide!), another to Cluses & St Gervais that I know of. I think some years to Briançon for Serre Chevalier too. And those valleys are well set up to receive skiers by train.

It would be a good offering for British, Belgian and Dutch skiers who are going to have to change at Lille anyway.
 

RT4038

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Could the capacity of the Eurostar service increase if they can find an additional terminus for trains to Spain/Germany etc? I know part of the issue at the moment is that the border control capacity at St Pancras is too small to handle the volume of traffic due to the new Brexit rules.
I think the issues are:
  • Insufficient capacity at St Pancras
  • The Immigration and security regime on UK bound trains necessitating all the passengers and their luggage alighting at Lille, going through the checks and reboarding, which takes at least an hour, and which there is limited capacity at Lille to handle.
  • Train companies perceive that there is insufficient demand for such long distance services to be profitable, due to length of journey vs. air competition and the inconvenience of the 'Lille shuffle'
If you read back the posts in this thread there is a lot of information on this subject.

Any additional terminus which is going to attract a bulk of passengers is going to be expensive to construct, and not worth doing unless the immigration and security issues could be resolved (which is not anywhere near the horizon at present)
 

Bald Rick

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There's direct TGVs from Paris to Maurienne and Oulx (when there's no landslide!), another to Cluses & St Gervais that I know of. I think some years to Briançon for Serre Chevalier too. And those valleys are well set up to receive skiers by train.

It would be a good offering for British, Belgian and Dutch skiers who are going to have to change at Lille anyway.

Compared to the Bourg St Maurice route though, very few services from Paris. It’s more or less hourly to Bourg on winter Saturdays; plus the trains from Brussels etc. Cluses / St Gervais has 2 per day from Paris and the Maurienne Valley also has 2, which shows the relative demand for those locations.
 

mad_rich

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Re: capacity at St Pancras.

It's not as if we have an underused station right on HS1 which has spare platforms, was designed for international services and has excellent connections to DLR, Tube, Overground, Elizabeth Line and National Rail.

Oh, wait! We do?

I know they'd have to fit it out and find border force etc to staff it, but I genuinely don't understand why that's so difficult.

It's not as if that would stop us from building a new airport terminal. Or stopped us from building the existing facilities.
 

dazzler

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There's direct TGVs from Paris to Maurienne and Oulx (when there's no landslide!), another to Cluses & St Gervais that I know of. I think some years to Briançon for Serre Chevalier too. And those valleys are well set up to receive skiers by train.
The service to Briançon is an Intercité Nuit, not a TGV - you'd have problems getting a TGV much past Valence due to the lack of overhead wires. The night train (couchettes and seats, SNCF don't have any sleeping cars) runs pretty much all year round (maintenance work excepted!), albeit with rather more coaches in winter than in summer.
 

30907

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Re: capacity at St Pancras.

It's not as if we have an underused station right on HS1 which has spare platforms, was designed for international services and has excellent connections to DLR, Tube, Overground, Elizabeth Line and National Rail.
Apart from DLR I wouldn't call the connections excellent - they're on a par with Euston from St P.
I know they'd have to fit it out and find border force etc to staff it, but I genuinely don't understand why that's so difficult.
The difficulty is presumably that the building was designed to cope with far less than 900 passengers per train. Is there actually the space?

The other problem AIUI is that Stratford International isn't set up for terminating trains.
 

Bald Rick

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The difficulty is presumably that the building was designed to cope with far less than 900 passengers per train. Is there actually the space?

The other problem AIUI is that Stratford International isn't set up for terminating trains.

Having used the space, no there is not capacity for 900 passengers, nor even more than a hundred or so when allowance has been made for all the screening equipment, gates and booths etc.
 
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D6130

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The service to Briançon is an Intercité Nuit, not a TGV - you'd have problems getting a TGV much past Valence due to the lack of overhead wires. The night train (couchettes and seats, SNCF don't have any sleeping cars) runs pretty much all year round (maintenance work excepted!), albeit with rather more coaches in winter than in summer.
Absolutely correct. However, prior to the landslide last August, large numbers of French skiers - and perhaps a few Northern European and British ones - travelled on the daytime Paris-Milano TGVs to and from Oulx in Italy, which has a regular bus connection with Briancon....and was considerably quicker than Paris-Briancon via connections from/to daytime TGVs at Valence or Grenoble.
 

30907

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Having used the space, no there is not capacity for 900 passengers, nor even more than a hundred or so when allowance has been made for sll the screening equipment, gates and booths etc.
Thanks. That really is very little - is Ebbsfleet any better? (Not that I am suggesting RENFE terminate there!).
 

Bald Rick

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Absolutely correct. However, prior to the landslide last August, large numbers of French skiers - and perhaps a few Northern European and British ones - travelled on the daytime Paris-Milano TGVs to and from Oulx in Italy, which has a regular bus connection with Briancon....and was considerably quicker than Paris-Briancon via connections from/to daytime TGVs at Valence or Grenoble.

But surely not enough to justify a train from Lille.
 

zwk500

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Thanks. That really is very little - is Ebbsfleet any better? (Not that I am suggesting RENFE terminate there!).
Not really, and Ebbsfleet is only marginally less awkward for terminating trains than Stratford.
Ashford is better to terminate at but also has a small passenger terminal.
 

dazzler

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Absolutely correct. However, prior to the landslide last August, large numbers of French skiers - and perhaps a few Northern European and British ones - travelled on the daytime Paris-Milano TGVs to and from Oulx in Italy, which has a regular bus connection with Briancon....and was considerably quicker than Paris-Briancon via connections from/to daytime TGVs at Valence or Grenoble.
Good point, I forgot about the bus transfer.

In my defence, the only time I have been to that part of the world was in late spring/early summer and I was cycle touring as well so went the direct route from the Maurienne valley to Briançon, over the Col du Galibier! o_O
 

Bald Rick

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In my defence, the only time I have been to that part of the world was in late spring/early summer and I was cycle touring as well so went the direct route from the Maurienne valley to Briançon, over the Col du Galibier! o_O

Surprised Galibier was open that time of year! I’ve been up there late June and there was snow and ice at the top.
 
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The bus no longer runs from Oulux to Briancon unfortunately - you have take a much longer route from Modane, which runs non--stop through Italian territory. This is because of stricter border controls by the French.
 

30907

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The bus no longer runs from Oulux to Briancon unfortunately - you have take a much longer route from Modane, which runs non--stop through Italian territory. This is because of stricter border controls by the French.
It presumably also allows connections with TGVs terminating at Modane rather than the infrequent Paris-Milan ones. Either way, it's far quicker to Briancon than via Valence (sadly).
 

dazzler

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Surprised Galibier was open that time of year! I’ve been up there late June and there was snow and ice at the top.
It was 16th June 2017. there was some snow at the side of the road (and on the peaks!) but the roads were clear. The Critérium du Dauphiné had been that way the previous week, so I knew it was clear!
Vaguely on-topic: I had travelled down to Briançon on the overnight service - couchette compartment to myself and the bike in the cubby hole next door. The return journey to Paris was sadly a bit more cramped.
 

Mountain Man

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Yep, that is a complete dream. Even with a high speed line all the way (ie completion of Montepllier - Perpignan and Madrid - Lisbon) it wouldn’t be less than 11 hours by a 320km/h capable train, and the best part of 24hrs on a sleeper.

Or 2hrs from Gatwick.
Time isn't the reason you do that journey by train. It's the joy over flying. I did the whole journey to Marrakech by train plus the short ferry hop. It was far more pleasant than the return flight. As you long you plan in the extra time it's a perfectly reasonable way to travel.
 

Bald Rick

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Time isn't the reason you do that journey by train. It's the joy over flying. I did the whole journey to Marrakech by train plus the short ferry hop. It was far more pleasant than the return flight. As you long you plan in the extra time it's a perfectly reasonable way to travel.

well, yes, but the point is that the number of people who want to make that journey by train for the ‘joy’ of it is rather small, and nowhere near enough to justify direct trains.

Also, as mentioned above, some (I’d argue most) people would prefer to spend a couple of hours on a plane rather than a dozen hours or more on a train.
 

paul1609

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Not really, and Ebbsfleet is only marginally less awkward for terminating trains than Stratford.
Ashford is better to terminate at but also has a small passenger terminal.
Ashford has in the past taken and dealt with whole Eurostars terminating there. The passenger terminal having predated HS1 can deal with it. It also has the advantage that it can share border staff with Eurotunnel, the inland freight facility which are both within 20 mins by road and Dover. The issue with emergency terminations in recent years hasn't been the terminal capacity it's been Southeastern's ability to disperse the displaced passengers.
 

zwk500

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Ashford has in the past taken and dealt with whole Eurostars terminating there. The passenger terminal having predated HS1 can deal with it. It also has the advantage that it can share border staff with Eurotunnel, the inland freight facility which are both within 20 mins by road and Dover. The issue with emergency terminations in recent years hasn't been the terminal capacity it's been Southeastern's ability to disperse the displaced passengers.
Terminating the odd train is very different from terminating the regular service. And border staff would be from Border Force on their own account, the border force would just hire people in Ashford if needed.
 

YorkRailFan

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I think it's a good idea, but first get Paris-Barcelona going with a frequent service (not twice daily) before even considering London.
 
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