Replacing Coaches With Service Buses

[Ayman Ilham]

I have noticed a trend over the years where many medium-long distance bus services throughout Britain have been operating with proper air conditioned coaches and then they get replaced with low floor service buses which, although may be newer, can be a major downgrade especially in terms of facilities and seat comfort because the high-back leather seats that buses normally use are not as good as coach seats.

Examples of such routes include:
First X10/X30 Stansted Airport - Chelmsford - Basildon/Southend (Plaxton Panther to E200 MMC)
Arriva X15 Newcastle to Berwick (Plaxton Premiere to MAX Scania Omnicity & E400)
Stagecoach X62 Leeds to Hull (Plaxton Premiere/Panther to E400 MMC)
Transpeak Manchester to Derby (Plaxton Premiere to various buses not suitable for 3 hours)

I've been wondering why many bus companies do this a lot? True, buses are generally more accessible and more suitable when there are many stops (as is the case with Transpeak and TrawsCymru) but why is there a need to sacrifice many luxuries necessary for such journeys such as comfortable seats, air conditioning, etc.? I don't understand why many of such routes don't at least fit the buses with coach seats but instead standard high back bus seats which, although advertised as comfortable, still are nothing compared to what the coaches had! In some cases, like some Stagecoach routes out of Edinburgh, the buses that replace the luxury coaches are standard spec with normal (not even high back) bus seats, which is an absolute joke in my opinion! Why not replace with more modern coaches like Plaxton Elites or Van Hool Astromegas (which is what routes like the Stagecoach X5 Oxbridge service did, as well as the TrentBarton Red Arrow and various Stagecoach Express routes in Scotland)? Please shed some light on this!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because buses are cheaper?

 

[Volvodart]

Many Stagecoach coach operated services were replaced with service buses from 2005 onwards. The time taken to operate the wheelchair lift, if it was needed, must have been a consideration.

 

[class387]

Some of Arriva's Greenline routes commonly use normal buses instead of coaches. 758 (London - Hemel Hempstead) does it quite a bit from observation. Probably due to unavailable coaches, or just bad allocation.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Many Stagecoach coach operated services were replaced with service buses from 2005 onwards. The time taken to operate the wheelchair lift, if it was needed, must have been a consideration.

That's true, I did mention that service buses are more accessible, but how come most buses that replaced coaches don't get upgraded to coach standard? Granted, some services do like Stagecoach in the form of Gold for routes like the X4 Peterborough to MK and a better version of it for the X2 Liverpool to Preston, as well as the Greenline buses, but there are many services that have been severely downgraded like the Aberystwyth to Cardiff via Carmarthen & Swansea bus service (formerly the 701 coach but now just a standard First Wright Eclipse urban bus as the T1C [the much nicer Optare Tempos originally intended for it are now used on the T4 and T9 instead cos it took too long for the T1C to come about] which doesn't even have high back seats, I mean how can you stand that for 4 and a half hours???)

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Because buses are cheaper?

True in the sense that they're probably cheaper to buy and maintain, but how come the fares aren't? In 2014 they used luxurious coaches on the X62 Leeds to Hull to replace the old deckers that operated on it but then recently in 2017, they replaced them with E400 MMC's which, even though they're okay for such a journey with their modern look and high back leather seats, the special fare of £13.20 return and the fact you still can't ride it with any day ticket still remains which you would expect from a premium coach, not a standard service bus! Ah well, still cheaper than the train :P

 

[Wirewiper]

Just as much as cheapness, I think accessibility is a factor, especially if large numbers of concessionary passholders are using the route. It saves time as well as making the service easier to use.

Also if coaches are being replaced by high-spec double-deckers, that suggests the route is popular and needs more capacity! I think that coaches are better suited to long-distance flows with few stops, with high-spec buses (didn't we used to call such vehicles "dual-purpose"?) for what may be limited stop but still essentially stage-carriage routes.

I notice that Transdev's new CityZap services have gone for the high-spec bus approach. Of course this may be to do with using low-cost mid-life vehicles to start with and see how the service pans out, rather like Stagecoach did with Megabus.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Just as much as cheapness, I think accessibility is a factor, especially if large numbers of concessionary passholders are using the route. It saves time as well as making the service easier to use.

Also if coaches are being replaced by high-spec double-deckers, that suggests the route is popular and needs more capacity! I think that coaches are better suited to long-distance flows with few stops, with high-spec buses (didn't we used to call such vehicles "dual-purpose"?) for what may be limited stop but still essentially stage-carriage routes.

I notice that Transdev's new CityZap services have gone for the high-spec bus approach. Of course this may be to do with using low-cost mid-life vehicles to start with and see how the service pans out, rather like Stagecoach did with Megabus.

I agree with you, but not all such services have very comfortable coach-like seats, just standard high-back leather bus seats which aren't that much more comfortable than regular bus seats! What would've been ideal would be if all such interurban buses were specced like the Transdev 36 (luxury leather coach seats, tables, USB, 2+1, etc. which can actually be better than a coach) or the York Cityzap!

 

[class387]

Just as much as cheapness, I think accessibility is a factor, especially if large numbers of concessionary passholders are using the route. It saves time as well as making the service easier to use.

Also if coaches are being replaced by high-spec double-deckers, that suggests the route is popular and needs more capacity! I think that coaches are better suited to long-distance flows with few stops, with high-spec buses (didn't we used to call such vehicles "dual-purpose"?) for what may be limited stop but still essentially stage-carriage routes.

I notice that Transdev's new CityZap services have gone for the high-spec bus approach. Of course this may be to do with using low-cost mid-life vehicles to start with and see how the service pans out, rather like Stagecoach did with Megabus.

High-spec buses are also more common than a few years ago, when very few buses had the option for coach seats etc.

 

[Dentonian]

Examples of such routes include:

Transpeak Manchester to Derby (Plaxton Premiere to various buses not suitable for 3 hours)

!

Transpeak is slightly different, in that it transferred from Wellglade to Centrebus/High Peak with the Buxton ops some years ago, but not the coaches. Consequently, only "service buses" have been available since. I think most (but not all) workings are now with Enviro 200s new in 2016 or early 2017, but I don't know what the seating is like. The last one I saw in Stockport, eight days ago, was an ex Nottingham Scania/EL (Max-Ci?). In reality, TP is now just a string of local services joined together. Apart from the unsuitability of buses for longer journeys, the through service to Manchester (ie beyond Buxton) now only runs every 2-3 hours and would take 3 hours end to end. Also there was an overnight hike of (iirc) 70% in Return fares from anywhere in GM to Derby when the service transferred, largely due to the loss of Wellglade's ticket range.

 

[A0wen]

I have noticed a trend over the years where many medium-long distance bus services throughout Britain have been operating with proper air conditioned coaches and then they get replaced with low floor service buses which, although may be newer, can be a major downgrade especially in terms of facilities and seat comfort because the high-back leather seats that buses normally use are not as good as coach seats.

Examples of such routes include:
First X10/X30 Stansted Airport - Chelmsford - Basildon/Southend (Plaxton Panther to E200 MMC)
Arriva X15 Newcastle to Berwick (Plaxton Premiere to MAX Scania Omnicity & E400)
Stagecoach X62 Leeds to Hull (Plaxton Premiere/Panther to E400 MMC)
Transpeak Manchester to Derby (Plaxton Premiere to various buses not suitable for 3 hours)

I've been wondering why many bus companies do this a lot? True, buses are generally more accessible and more suitable when there are many stops (as is the case with Transpeak and TrawsCymru) but why is there a need to sacrifice many luxuries necessary for such journeys such as comfortable seats, air conditioning, etc.? I don't understand why many of such routes don't at least fit the buses with coach seats but instead standard high back bus seats which, although advertised as comfortable, still are nothing compared to what the coaches had! In some cases, like some Stagecoach routes out of Edinburgh, the buses that replace the luxury coaches are standard spec with normal (not even high back) bus seats, which is an absolute joke in my opinion! Why not replace with more modern coaches like Plaxton Elites or Van Hool Astromegas (which is what routes like the Stagecoach X5 Oxbridge service did, as well as the TrentBarton Red Arrow and various Stagecoach Express routes in Scotland)? Please shed some light on this!

I think some of it is because the services get used like buses - an example being the Green Line 724. In the 80s through to the mid 90s it was run using Tiger coaches with a mix of bodywork. Problem was that was quite a step up and add in market day in places like St Albans and Hatfield with the associated shopping trolley bearers and loading / unloading became quite slow.

They were replaced in the mid 90s with high-back seated Daf SB220s, which in turn were replaced with Citaros about 10 years later - I believe still operated with Citaros?

The X5 is very much a limited stop service if you look at its route and is less susceptible to the passengers who are slow to board / disembark - whereas the X4 / X46 - also Stagecoach services - do get the short hop, shopper passengers hence using bus style vehicles.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I think some of it is because the services get used like buses - an example being the Green Line 724. In the 80s through to the mid 90s it was run using Tiger coaches with a mix of bodywork. Problem was that was quite a step up and add in market day in places like St Albans and Hatfield with the associated shopping trolley bearers and loading / unloading became quite slow.

They were replaced in the mid 90s with high-back seated Daf SB220s, which in turn were replaced with Citaros about 10 years later - I believe still operated with Citaros?

The X5 is very much a limited stop service if you look at its route and is less susceptible to the passengers who are slow to board / disembark - whereas the X4 / X46 - also Stagecoach services - do get the short hop, shopper passengers hence using bus style vehicles.

How come the X7 (Leicester to Northampton/MK) is just a standard no-frills E300 bus and not a high spec Gold E400 when that's a lengthy express service which is 2 and a half hours?

 

[Robertj21a]

How come the X7 (Leicester to Northampton/MK) is just a standard no-frills E300 bus and not a high spec Gold E400 when that's a lengthy express service which is 2 and a half hours?

Well it can't be a E400 as there's a low bridge on the route. I doubt that there's enough demand, yet, for it to go Gold but it has gradually got busier and increased in frequency at the Leicester end.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Well it can't be a E400 as there's a low bridge on the route. I doubt that there's enough demand, yet, for it to go Gold but it has gradually got busier and increased in frequency at the Leicester end.

Doesn't have to be double decker, the existing E300's can be refurbished and upgraded to Gold standard!

 

[class387]

I think some of it is because the services get used like buses - an example being the Green Line 724. In the 80s through to the mid 90s it was run using Tiger coaches with a mix of bodywork. Problem was that was quite a step up and add in market day in places like St Albans and Hatfield with the associated shopping trolley bearers and loading / unloading became quite slow.

They were replaced in the mid 90s with high-back seated Daf SB220s, which in turn were replaced with Citaros about 10 years later - I believe still operated with Citaros?

The X5 is very much a limited stop service if you look at its route and is less susceptible to the passengers who are slow to board / disembark - whereas the X4 / X46 - also Stagecoach services - do get the short hop, shopper passengers hence using bus style vehicles.

Yes, still Citaros, though now painted in standard Arriva blue. Other buses also appear on a daily basis though.

The 724 seems to just be used as many different short routes linked together (eg. Hatfield to Watford, Welwyn to Hertford etc.). The end to end journey is very slow and circuitous so not many use it. I have had to take it from Hatfield through to Heathrow a few times and it is incredibly tedious and slow.

 

[Robertj21a]

Doesn't have to be double decker, the existing E300's can be refurbished and upgraded to Gold standard!

Yes, I know - but you suggested E400s !

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lots to go at on this thread

Firstly, as Dentonian pointed out with TransPeak, and AOwen with the 724, many long distance services are not aimed at long distance travel; they serve to provide a set of series of overlapping links. To quote the example of the X7 Leicester to MK, it really isn't designed to for end to end journeys. Instead, you have MH to Leicester/Northampton, then villages like Brixworth into Northampton, then north bit of Northampton (e.g. Kingsthorpe) to town centre and then to MK. However, there is every chance that it could get upgraded to Gold (with e200mmc perhaps) but you have to prioritise.

Then you have the additional cost of purchase of coaches and then the difficulty of redeploying them. The example of the Arriva North East Primas is a case in point. Delivered new to the X14 and the 93, they were worked hard. Loadings grew on the 93 so they needed deckers and the X14 was shortened to be a more local service. The Primas were eventually redeployed on the 501/505 but even then, loadings necessitated more deckers so it was getting more difficult to find a home for them.

Also, it is perhaps telling that 2+1 seating is not employed. Simply, you have the same costs of operation yet you've reduced your ability to make money by 25%.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Transpeak is an interesting one - in the 1990s it was operated by high floor buses with coach seating (and tables!) - Stagecoach Gold type spec is probably the modern-day equivalent.

Transpeak bus

 

[Mwanesh]

As pointed above coaches have to justify their purchase nowadays.I can give you a few examples .Buses are easier to deploy on any route.The X5 coaches in Bedford can do only the X5 or 99 on any other route they are too big.Plymouth Falcon coaches they can use Megabus spare coaches but Megabus cant use a Falcon coach because it will be gone for days.In Oxford the Oxford Tube coaches do a few local routes but some of the turns are too tight.Years ago i went to Stevenage and saw a Greenline 797 coach on the SB2 service it was a sight in the estates

 

[Ayman Ilham]

As pointed above coaches have to justify their purchase nowadays.I can give you a few examples .Buses are easier to deploy on any route.The X5 coaches in Bedford can do only the X5 or 99 on any other route they are too big.Plymouth Falcon coaches they can use Megabus spare coaches but Megabus cant use a Falcon coach because it will be gone for days.In Oxford the Oxford Tube coaches do a few local routes but some of the turns are too tight.Years ago i went to Stevenage and saw a Greenline 797 coach on the SB2 service it was a sight in the estates

Why do they sometime use the coaches on local routes? An Astromega running a local service within Oxford City is just overkill! I once saw an Arriva Plaxton Premiere on the 75 (Bangor to MaesG) a local route within a town-sized city, a one-off filling in for the usual Dennis Dart or Optare Solo! Meanwhile, the T2 running cross country to Aberystwyth is a no frills E200 with standard bus seats (there used to be all sorts of buses used on that route in the days of Express Motors from Optare Solos to Scania Omnicities) - thankfully, the T2 is a lot better now with (almost) high spec TrawsCymru branded Optare Metrocities that have surprisingly comfortable leather seats (although still not as good as coach seats) and USB sockets that actually work!

While we're on the topic of lengthy routes that are simply a series of local routes merged into one, TrawsCymru routes are EXACTLY that! Most people only use the T2 to get to the next town or two (e.g. Porthmadog to Caernarfon/Bangor or Dolgellau to Machynlleth) not go all the way from Bangor to Aberystwyth (although I do know a few that do ride end to end, especially students travelling between the two universities)

 

[Mwanesh]

Oxford Tube uses Astromegas on morning runs they are too busy.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Oxford Tube uses Astromegas on morning runs they are too busy.

I used to see the Astromegas doing runs on the S5 Bicester to Oxford in the morning peak.

Believe they also cover down to Wantage. Don’t think they do city work.

 

[A0wen]

Yes, still Citaros, though now painted in standard Arriva blue. Other buses also appear on a daily basis though.

Nothing new there - when it was operated by County at Harlow it was a complete lottery what would turn up on it before the DAFs appeared - take your pick but it could be a Tiger (bus or coach), Leopard (coach), National, Dart or a multitude of minibuses including 3 axle Talbots and Ivecos or Mercedes of various flavours.

 

[northwichcat]

Also if coaches are being replaced by high-spec double-deckers, that suggests the route is popular and needs more capacity!

Might not be as much extra capacity as you think. Single decker coaches quite often have over 50 seats with some having 57 seats, while normal double decker buses have around 75 seats. If you give the double decker a high spec interior with extra leg room it reduces the capacity to sixty something seats.

 

[northwichcat]

Transpeak is an interesting one - in the 1990s it was operated by high floor buses with coach seating (and tables!) - Stagecoach Gold type spec is probably the modern-day equivalent.

I saw a Twitter question and response on the High Peak Buses feed once asking about why coaches aren't used on TP services and the response they gave was the high number of elderly passengers who would find using coaches more difficult. (Of course they aren't going to say the primary reason is to save money.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might not be as much extra capacity as you think. Single decker coaches quite often have over 50 seats with some having 57 seats, while normal double decker buses have around 75 seats. If you give the double decker a high spec interior with extra leg room it reduces the capacity to sixty something seats.

Though with a higher level of comfort. 57 seat coaches tend to be quite cramped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I saw a Twitter question and response on the High Peak Buses feed once asking about why coaches aren't used on TP services and the response they gave was the high number of elderly passengers who would find using coaches more difficult. (Of course they aren't going to say the primary reason is to save money.)

Nothing stopping them going back to the 90s and using high quality buses, of course. That *is* money, which from my observation Peddle is not a fan of spending

 

[route101]

One route that has had coaches put on it is the x95 Edinburgh to Carlisle or i think its been split now Edinburgh to Hawick or Gala to Carlisle .
Around Glasgow the x25 and x28 stagecoach services coaches got replaced by E400S but still see odd megabus on it .

 

[Robertj21a]

Nothing stopping them going back to the 90s and using high quality buses, of course. That *is* money, which from my observation Peddle is not a fan of spending

Peddle is being very sensible. Transpeak has a number of difficult issues as it is without inflating the costs without good reason.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Peddle is being very sensible. Transpeak has a number of difficult issues as it is without inflating the costs without good reason.

Correct - I wouldn't mind being a fiver behind Mr Peddle. He's an experienced busman.