Reports on effectiveness (or not!) and impacts of lockdown and other measures

[35B]

But, after all that huff and puff, can you actually point to any reliable source that backs up lockdowns as being effective?

The onus is on those who are pro lockdown to justify them, not the other way round!

I’m not trying to justify anything, just objecting to one particular study being used to argue a conclusion that it simply doesn’t credibly support.

 

[yorkie]

I’m not trying to justify anything, just objecting to one particular study being used to argue a conclusion that it simply doesn’t credibly support.

So you aren't actually trying to justify lockdowns and can offer no evidence to support the effectiveness of lockdowns?

Good, glad we've cleared that up

 

[yorksrob]

We shouldn't have closed hospitality after the first lockdown. Sweden demonstrated that this wasn't necessary

 

[DustyBin]

We shouldn't have closed hospitality after the first lockdown. Sweden demonstrated that this wasn't necessary

I absolutely support those condemning the closure of schools 100% for the reasons stated, however I feel that hospitality is a somewhat forgotten victim in this. A large number of lower paid workers lost their jobs, a large number of people, in some cases isolated and vulnerable people, were deprived of the opportunity to socialise and an entire industry was thrown under the bus and continues to struggle to recover fully. It was yet another cruel, callous and wholly unnecessary assault on ordinary people, and indeed the very fabric of society, by clueless idiots who wanted to be seen to be doing something.

 

[Bayum]

We should never have closed schools, or at least reopened them ASAP. We should not have implemented the ludicrous "bubble" system and we should not have prevented kids doing fun and healthy things like sports clubs for a year.

We've been through this before; I refer you to what I said previously.


Unfortunately the measures which people such as yourself have supported and/or implemented have caused mental wellbeing to be at an all time low; while there should be more "support" the reality is that trying to fix a problem that should never have occurred is not always an easy process.


We should be doing more to identify the root cause of these issues and lockdowns etc have exacerbated these problems massively.


I don't see evidence that schools have "fewer resources" for example loads of laptop/chromebook devices have been provided to schools, and in general schools seem to have better resources these days than they did, but for a long period of time during the pandemic, schools had staff who were not allowed to do many of the activities that they were being paid to do, on the basis of "preventing the spread" of the virus. This resulted in all sorts of problems, for both mental & physical health as well as having an impact developmentally and academically. I remember in the Summer of 2020, when virus levels were very low, kids in my city had no opportunities provided by schools because the local council had instructed them all not to, and all schools had agreed to this.

It was absolute madness and yet people like you supported it; I knew it would have a terrible outcome but we all make mistakes, and I respect that, so it would be great if you could just admit you made a mistake in supporting these measures? If you did, I'd have a lot of respect for you for that.

So rather than answer my question, you’ve not.

 

[Eyersey468]

I absolutely support those condemning the closure of schools 100% for the reasons stated, however I feel that hospitality is a somewhat forgotten victim in this. A large number of lower paid workers lost their jobs, a large number of people, in some cases isolated and vulnerable people, were deprived of the opportunity to socialise and an entire industry was thrown under the bus and continues to struggle to recover fully. It was yet another cruel, callous and wholly unnecessary assault on ordinary people, and indeed the very fabric of society, by clueless idiots who wanted to be seen to be doing something.

I agree.

 

[yorksrob]

I absolutely support those condemning the closure of schools 100% for the reasons stated, however I feel that hospitality is a somewhat forgotten victim in this. A large number of lower paid workers lost their jobs, a large number of people, in some cases isolated and vulnerable people, were deprived of the opportunity to socialise and an entire industry was thrown under the bus and continues to struggle to recover fully. It was yet another cruel, callous and wholly unnecessary assault on ordinary people, and indeed the very fabric of society, by clueless idiots who wanted to be seen to be doing something.

It does bring to mind the complete futility of the ten o'clock chuck out, the scotch egg rule, the tiers, Leicester being in lockdown for years on end etc.

 

[Eyersey468]

I can see new startups in hospitality being near impossible to get financial backing for years, who will want to invest when it can be closed at a moments notice on a ministerial whim?

 

[yorkie]

So rather than answer my question, you’ve not.

What do you want me to say?

Pretend there is an easy answer to this huge problem that pro-lockdown people have made?

You've not answered my questions; you are just repeating the argument you made in the Self Harming thread and we are getting nowhere.

Your 'question' glosses over the harms caused by restrictions and is based on the false premise that the problems can simply be made to go away.

I am disappointed you appear to be dismissing / justifying the harms caused by lockdowns and other measures; clearly we are going to have to agree to disagree, as we are going round in circles in yet another thread.

 

[Bayum]

What do you want me to say?

Pretend there is an easy answer to this huge problem that pro-lockdown people have made?

You've not answered my questions; you are just repeating the argument you made in the Self Harming thread and we are getting nowhere.

Your 'question' glosses over the harms caused by restrictions and is based on the false premise that the problems can simply be made to go away.

I am disappointed you appear to be dismissing / justifying the harms caused by lockdowns and other measures; clearly we are going to have to agree to disagree, as we are going round in circles in yet another thread.

You talk the talk and seem to enjoy peddling this wherever and whenever you can but are not actually providing any substance in what you’d like doing. At least I provided a suggestion.

 

[Bantamzen]

You talk the talk and seem to enjoy peddling this wherever and whenever you can but are not actually providing any substance in what you’d like doing. At least I provided a suggestion.

As far as I can see you have posted three times on this thread, and made no suggestions. So perhaps you might like to put those forward your suggestions before calling people out for not dealing with your as yet unannounced suggestions?

 

[Bayum]

As far as I can see you have posted three times on this thread, and made no suggestions. So perhaps you might like to put those forward your suggestions before calling people out for not dealing with your as yet unannounced suggestions?

As Yorkie pointed out earlier, I’ve made suggestions around this. Schools need more support in terms of being able to get counsellors and mental health specialists into schools and providing more funding for services such as CAMHS to help reduce the waiting list of x years rather than weeks.

 

[seagull]

Heh. More funding. Thanks to lockdowns and restrictions lasting far longer than necessary, there is no money left.

 

[Eyersey468]

Heh. More funding. Thanks to lockdowns and restrictions lasting far longer than necessary, there is no money left.

I agree. The magic money tree is bare. We will be paying the debts of the last 2 years off for years to come which will impact on what we can spend in future

 

[farleigh]

As Yorkie pointed out earlier, I’ve made suggestions around this. Schools need more support in terms of being able to get counsellors and mental health specialists into schools and providing more funding for services such as CAMHS to help reduce the waiting list of x years rather than weeks.

I think this horse has bolted. The huge damage done by lockdown has meant that thousands of vulnerable children are still not attending school.Many of those that do have diminished mental health as a consequence of the restrictions that have been imposed upon them.

 

[Bayum]

I think this horse has bolted. The huge damage done by lockdown has meant that thousands of vulnerable children are still not attending school.Many of those that do have diminished mental health as a consequence of the restrictions that have been imposed upon them.

No one is denying that the mental health is diminished. If we’d have had proper funding and resources for paediatric mental health prior to lockdown, we would better be able to support now. As it is, those resources are severely lacking and those in the highest need will be waiting far too long to access.

 

[bramling]

No one is denying that the mental health is diminished. If we’d have had proper funding and resources for paediatric mental health prior to lockdown, we would better be able to support now. As it is, those resources are severely lacking and those in the highest need will be waiting far too long to access.

The irony is that excessive use of lockdowns has probably guaranteed we can forget funding for many things now. The only things which are going to get increased funding is our utility and tax bills.

 

[yorkie]

No one is denying that the mental health is diminished. If we’d have had proper funding and resources for paediatric mental health prior to lockdown, we would better be able to support now. As it is, those resources are severely lacking and those in the highest need will be waiting far too long to access.

How much money was/is needed to implement this?

and where do you get the money from (presumably you print more money i.e. generate even more inflation)?

Would providing mental health 'support' really solve the problems that were caused by denying young people a normal life for so long at such a critical time?

I have seen kids be harmed by the effects of lockdown and had many people try to help them and many measures put in place, and the kids are still not in a position where the harms have been reversed; what do you have to say about that?

Do you still believe that the restrictions placed on young people over the past couple of years were justifiable?

 

[Bayum]

The irony is that excessive use of lockdowns has probably guaranteed we can forget funding for many things now. The only things which are going to get increased funding is our utility and tax bills.

Unfortunately, very very true.

How much money was/is needed to implement this?

and where do you get the money from (presumably you print more money i.e. generate even more inflation)?

Would providing mental health 'support' really solve the problems that were caused by denying young people a normal life for so long at such a critical time?

I have seen kids be harmed by the effects of lockdown and had many people try to help them and many measures put in place, and the kids are still not in a position where the harms have been reversed; what do you have to say about that?

Do you still believe that the restrictions placed on young people over the past couple of years were justifiable?

So you disagree that paediatrics need mental health support and specialists even though there are rising numbers of children with mental health issues?

 

[yorkie]

So you disagree that paediatrics need mental health support and specialists even though there are rising numbers of children with mental health issues?

Yes they do, but can you answer my questions? I guess not...

 

[Bayum]

Yes they do, but can you answer my questions? I guess not...

You’ve not answered mine still so why should I?

 

[farleigh]

No one is denying that the mental health is diminished. If we’d have had proper funding and resources for paediatric mental health prior to lockdown, we would better be able to support now. As it is, those resources are severely lacking and those in the highest need will be waiting far too long to access.

I rather think the funding is irrelevant.

The lack of compassion from those short sighted enough to support the lockdowns, restrictions, masks etc which so damaged young people won't be repaired with pound notes.

 

[yorkie]

You’ve not answered mine still so why should I?

Your question is based on a false premise; you are making a very vague proposal with absolutely no detail behind what exactly you are proposing, how much it would cost, how it would be funded, how effective it may be and you are still not recognising that policies which you supported have had such a terrible impact on mental health.

I am not denying that more support would be useful but you are not elaborating on any of the points; without full clarification, there is very little point in debating with you. It's clear to me that you are not likely to elaborate and therefore we are just going round in circles, just as we have done in previous threads.

Asking vague question, with a refusal to clarify until the vague question has been answered, is not having a debate in good faith.

Therefore, if you continue to refuse to provide the clarification requested, I suggest we agree to disagree.

 

[Eyersey468]

The irony is that excessive use of lockdowns has probably guaranteed we can forget funding for many things now. The only things which are going to get increased funding is our utility and tax bills.

I completely agree

I rather think the funding is irrelevant.

The lack of compassion from those short sighted enough to support the lockdowns, restrictions, masks etc which so damaged young people won't be repaired with pound notes.

I agree with this as well

Your question is based on a false premise; you are making a very vague proposal with absolutely no detail behind what exactly you are proposing, how much it would cost, how it would be funded, how effective it may be and you are still not recognising that policies which you supported have had such a terrible impact on mental health.

Bayum seems to me to be saying more money should be allocated to children's mental health services, although how much and where this money will come from I have no idea

 

[43096]

How much money was/is needed to implement this?

and where do you get the money from (presumably you print more money i.e. generate even more inflation)?

Would providing mental health 'support' really solve the problems that were caused by denying young people a normal life for so long at such a critical time?

I have seen kids be harmed by the effects of lockdown and had many people try to help them and many measures put in place, and the kids are still not in a position where the harms have been reversed; what do you have to say about that?

Do you still believe that the restrictions placed on young people over the past couple of years were justifiable?

It's typical of those who support lockdowns that when the question of the effect on mental health is raised, they revert to "should provide more support" rather than questioning the root cause and whether it was worth damaging so many people's health (it wasn't and isn't). It would have been far better to avoid having to provide support for people who's mental health has been affected.

 

[brad465]

Heh. More funding. Thanks to lockdowns and restrictions lasting far longer than necessary, there is no money left.

As appears to be the case regarding the latest Treasury blocking act:

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I still wonder though how many will actually put this down to excessive spending on lockdowns and whatnot, given how much denial about them being a bad approach there is from those who supported them the hardest.

 

[Yew]

and where do you get the money from (presumably you print more money i.e. generate even more inflation)?

On the inflation front, it is probably not too much of an issue; the gains of people being more stable and able to hold down difficult jobs in the future will most likely pay back many times in the future.

 

[island]

If anyone was pro lockdown in March 2020 but since realised their mistake then fair enough but what I cannot accept is the views of people who remain of the opinion that harsh lockdowns, including school closures and other measures, were justified now that we have more information on the harms of lockdown and very little evidence of the effectiveness of lockdowns.

I would say the first lockdown from 26 March to 1 June 2020 was a reasonable measure given the information available at the time and probably still reasonable given all the information we have now, having the goal of delaying the rate of infection and avoiding the health service becoming overwhelmed.

I cannot say the same about the subsequent lockdowns.

 

[35B]

So you aren't actually trying to justify lockdowns and can offer no evidence to support the effectiveness of lockdowns?

Good, glad we've cleared that up

Nor am I trying to present a study as "proving" results that, regardless of whether lockdowns are or are not effective, is so fundamentally flawed that it can't be relied upon to prove anything.

 

[Eyersey468]

I would say the first lockdown from 26 March to 1 June 2020 was a reasonable measure given the information available at the time and probably still reasonable given all the information we have now, having the goal of delaying the rate of infection and avoiding the health service becoming overwhelmed.

I cannot say the same about the subsequent lockdowns.

I think the first lockdown was politically necessary as they had to be seen to do something, that said I have always held the view the harms lockdowns cause outweigh any good they do and it doesn't mean I feel it was the right decision