Reserved Seating

[Starmill]

NB spun-off from this thread.

Is a seat reservation complimentary or is it a guarantee (i.e. a passenger's right or entitlement) once it's booked?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-too-full-to-board.173369/page-2#post-3722810
Both? That's kind of the whole point. A seat reservation forms part of one's contract.

But the companies still have no obligation to give you a seat

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-too-full-to-board.173369/page-2#post-3723044
There is no obligation to provide a seat to a customer who has a valid ticket and a reserved seat? Would you like to explain your thinking on this point and provide some evidence?

 

[Mag_seven]

A seat reservation forms part of one's contract.

Then GWR are in breach of it every day, given the number of GWR services of late that I have travelled on that have had no seat reservations applied.

 

[Starmill]

Then GWR are in breach of it every day, given the number of GWR services of late that I have travelled on that have had no seat reservations applied.

Yes. Of course, in most cases there will be a seat still for people to sit in, so they will probably still choose to take up their travel. They're entitled to a refund if they don't want to as their reserved seat isn't available.

 

[_toommm_]

NB spun-off from this thread.


https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-too-full-to-board.173369/page-2#post-3722810
Both? That's kind of the whole point. A seat reservation forms part of one's contract.


https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-too-full-to-board.173369/page-2#post-3723044
There is no obligation to provide a seat to a customer who has a valid ticket and a reserved seat? Would you like to explain your thinking on this point and provide some evidence?

Because a ticket gets you from point a to point B - just because you have a reservation doesn't mean someone won't sit in your seat, nor the train be too full to access your seat.

 

[yorkie]

Because a ticket gets you from point a to point B - just because you have a reservation doesn't mean someone won't sit in your seat, nor the train be too full to access your seat.

It's a contractual term that it will be provided (if you have a reservation) however the company may not be able to keep to that contractual term, in which case if no alternative seat is available the company is required to provide compensation under consumer law.

For example see LNER's scheme here:
https://www.lner.co.uk/customer-service/seat-guarantee/

...it’s only natural to be cheesed off if you find none are available when you’ve gone to the trouble of booking one.

If that happens, and our staff can't track you down an alternative seat, our Seat Guarantee scheme lets you claim a refund. Here’s how it works:

• If you had a one way ticket, we’ll compensate you 100% of the value
• If you had a return ticket, we’ll compensate you 50% of the value
• If you had a First Class ticket and the only seat available is in Standard, we’ll compensate you the difference between the fare you paid and the Standard equivalent

 

[Fearless]

Then GWR are in breach of it every day, given the number of GWR services of late that I have travelled on that have had no seat reservations applied.

And there seems to be some doubt in practice (regardless of the rules) about whether or not reservations are valid if the electronic displays aren't working. I recently travelled on a packed IET with no reservations showing; a woman came up to the seat I'd taken and told me it was her reserved seat, and showed me her reservation to confirm it, so I got up and resumed my usual travelling place (i.e. in the corridor). Shortly afterwards, a disabled lady was unable to shift someone sitting in HER reserved seat, and the guard sided with the person in the seat - that because the reservation system was inoperative there were in effect no reservations. I wish he'd said that to the woman I gave up my seat to. There needs to be clear policy, fairly carried out.

 

[Mag_seven]

And there seems to be some doubt in practice (regardless of the rules) about whether or not reservations are valid if the electronic displays aren't working. I recently travelled on a packed IET with no reservations showing; a woman came up to the seat I'd taken and told me it was her reserved seat, and showed me her reservation to confirm it, so I got up and resumed my usual travelling place (i.e. in the corridor). Shortly afterwards, a disabled lady was unable to shift someone sitting in HER reserved seat, and the guard sided with the person in the seat - that because the reservation system was inoperative there were in effect no reservations. I wish he'd said that to the woman I gave up my seat to. There needs to be clear policy, fairly carried out.

My understanding is that if there are no seat reservations, there are no seat reservations period. You had absolutely no obligation to give up your seat. Obviously some common sense and accommodation needs to be applied in the case of the disabled space.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If there's one thing I hate when on an InterCity train then it's the words on the station boards 'No seat reservations' or 'No seat reservations on train'. Tricky to know these days if what ever Standard Class coach you're booked into if if its an IET or HST on high-speed GWR service.GWR

In terms of how my seat reservation trains went on the 08:59 from Didcot to Liskeard and 16:31 from Liskeard to Reading, both on the 30/09/18 it was kind of like /\/\/\/.

I get out the taxi from Abingdon (due to the first bus being around 08:45) at Didcot Parkway to find the 08:59 on time from platform 3 (08:51 or 52 the "new" platform was the normal platform 1 ), formed of 9 coaches with First Class in the front 2 coaches. This meant my Coach B (seat 56) reservation was backwards - fine as I deliberately booked the same seat on the 16:31 during July as I assumed it was the same train as on the 08:59.

I get on the 08:59 to find the reservations blank - when I claimed my seat, 2 people said there's seats there. I politely said that I was autistic etc. The person and lady opposite were very nice.

In Liskeard, I had a look at Tiger and find the 16:31 is 8 coaches (therefore an HST) and not the same train as the train manager on the 08:58 said. I get on this train to find my booked seat, B56 + a mother with 2 or 3 children occupying my seat / most of these seats. I politely had to say it was my seat. She understandably wasn't happy at having to move. Both her and I had disabilities (she didn't have a crutch).

I know what you'll all think but if you were me, you wouldn't want to sit in a seat, you've not booked, on a trip of either / around 3 hours 20 minutes. Especially when you've planned a long trip for around 9 months (but 2 months for a Sunday).

If my seat was backwards, then fine but as it was forwards on the 16:31 (even though it was in reverse), it wasn't easy given how long I've planned the trip to say / think 'Don't worry I'll go and find another seat'.

Also there was no reservation ticket on my seat but was on others. I

There were a good number of positive things on both trips - my phone needed charging and thank heavens the plug socket worked where my seat was !

The next day I complained to GWR about this regarding these problems on both trips (not in the exact words) in that basically my seat reservation not being in evidence affects my mental health! Not sure if I added the exclamation mark.

A few other things such as the incorrect information on the 08:59 between Bath Spa and Taunton I complained about.

The response time was around 2 weeks when I sent the first email and the reply to one. Given the negatives on the 08:59 and 16:31 that was worth complaining about, they sent me a gesture of goodwill as a way of making amends.

When I next go to the South West - hopefully Bodmin Parkway in May 2019 that I won't have a repeat!

 

[Starmill]

Because a ticket gets you from point a to point B

That's correct. And travel with a valid ticket and a seat reservation is a contract to transport you on a specific train, sat in a specific seat.

Everyone understands that there will occasionally be exceptional circumstances, such as a short formation of a trian, that means reserved seating can't be provided. There are a variety of options for the customer in that case.

doesn't mean someone won't sit in your seat,

Sitting in a seat marked as reserved for someone who is not you is likely to be a Byelaw offence.

 

[Skymonster]

A seat reservation forms part of one's contract.

And if the railway doesn't deliver its side of the contract because the reservations aren't displayed, finding a resolution to the matter should be between the passenger and the railway. It's NOT an issue that should affect the poor sod who sat in an unoccupied seat in good faith only to find someone else subsequently claiming it and trying to force them out of it when the train is full and standing.

 

[Timrud]

I always thought the reservation was only valid if the passenger had a reservation AND the train displayed the same reservation (either paper or electronic).

 

[Esker-pades]

LNER provide an option in their online delay repay form for "seat guarantee". I'm not sure what level of compensation they provide, but it does exist.

 

[Qwerty133]

If there's one thing I hate when on an InterCity train then it's the words on the station boards 'No seat reservations' or 'No seat reservations on train'. Tricky to know these days if what ever Standard Class coach you're booked into if if its an IET or HST on high-speed GWR service.GWR

In terms of how my seat reservation trains went on the 08:59 from Didcot to Liskeard and 16:31 from Liskeard to Reading, both on the 30/09/18 it was kind of like /\/\/\/.

I get out the taxi from Abingdon (due to the first bus being around 08:45) at Didcot Parkway to find the 08:59 on time from platform 3 (08:51 or 52 the "new" platform was the normal platform 1 ), formed of 9 coaches with First Class in the front 2 coaches. This meant my Coach B (seat 56) reservation was backwards - fine as I deliberately booked the same seat on the 16:31 during July as I assumed it was the same train as on the 08:59.

I get on the 08:59 to find the reservations blank - when I claimed my seat, 2 people said there's seats there. I politely said that I was autistic etc. The person and lady opposite were very nice.

In Liskeard, I had a look at Tiger and find the 16:31 is 8 coaches (therefore an HST) and not the same train as the train manager on the 08:58 said. I get on this train to find my booked seat, B56 + a mother with 2 or 3 children occupying my seat / most of these seats. I politely had to say it was my seat. She understandably wasn't happy at having to move. Both her and I had disabilities (she didn't have a crutch).

I know what you'll all think but if you were me, you wouldn't want to sit in a seat, you've not booked, on a trip of either / around 3 hours 20 minutes. Especially when you've planned a long trip for around 9 months (but 2 months for a Sunday).

If my seat was backwards, then fine but as it was forwards on the 16:31 (even though it was in reverse), it wasn't easy given how long I've planned the trip to say / think 'Don't worry I'll go and find another seat'.

Also there was no reservation ticket on my seat but was on others. I

There were a good number of positive things on both trips - my phone needed charging and thank heavens the plug socket worked where my seat was !

The next day I complained to GWR about this regarding these problems on both trips (not in the exact words) in that basically my seat reservation not being in evidence affects my mental health! Not sure if I added the exclamation mark.

A few other things such as the incorrect information on the 08:59 between Bath Spa and Taunton I complained about.

The response time was around 2 weeks when I sent the first email and the reply to one. Given the negatives on the 08:59 and 16:31 that was worth complaining about, they sent me a gesture of goodwill as a way of making amends.

When I next go to the South West - hopefully Bodmin Parkway in May 2019 that I won't have a repeat!

If there are no reservations on display it is catagorically not your seat so you cannot expect the occupant to move. Trains are public transport and therefore cannot be guaranteed to operate as planned so if you are unable to cope with such minor changes you probably shouldn't be travelling alone and at the very minimum should be booking passenger assistance so the TOC is aware of your difficulties and can try and help at the time.

 

[_toommm_]

It's a difficult issue - the most memorable time for me was when I boarded a TPE to Manchester. I found my seat and politely said to the gent that that was my seat, to which he politely said there's no seat reservations. I was annoyed internally, buy of course it wasn't the gents fault so I sat opposite him.

In comes this fat heap of a woman billowing at me that that was her seat. I chorused what was already being played out on the tannoy, to which I got hurled abuse. I'd just finished work and I couldn't be arsed arguing, so I moved, and the original guy offered my seat back to me and he sat next to me and we got talking.

The woman proceeds to tell me what I did was harassment, that she's going to take my seat number and coach and report me to the police, so I took my reservation slip, wrote down my name and seat and coach number for her. Let's just say she continually 'knocked' her feet into mine throughout the journey and took up the whole table spitefully with her bag...

Quite funny really in hindsight, but the bellowing and abuse from her at the time was out of order. Let's just say fellow passengers looked disgusted and gave me a reassuring smile when the ordeal was over...

 

[trebor79]

This is what I don't understand. If your seat is occupied but there are plenty of spare seats why bother trying to turf someone else off 'your' seat?
Seems there was room for you, the fat woman and the gent anyway, so was there really any need for anybody to ask anybody to move seats?

 

[185143]

It's a difficult issue - the most memorable time for me was when I boarded a TPE to Manchester. I found my seat and politely said to the gent that that was my seat, to which he politely said there's no seat reservations. I was annoyed internally, buy of course it wasn't the gents fault so I sat opposite him.

In comes this fat heap of a woman billowing at me that that was her seat. I chorused what was already being played out on the tannoy, to which I got hurled abuse. I'd just finished work and I couldn't be arsed arguing, so I moved, and the original guy offered my seat back to me and he sat next to me and we got talking.

The woman proceeds to tell me what I did was harassment, that she's going to take my seat number and coach and report me to the police, so I took my reservation slip, wrote down my name and seat and coach number for her. Let's just say she continually 'knocked' her feet into mine throughout the journey and took up the whole table spitefully with her bag...

Quite funny really in hindsight, but the bellowing and abuse from her at the time was out of order. Let's just say fellow passengers looked disgusted and gave me a reassuring smile when the ordeal was over...

That's the one thing I'd have made a point of *not* doing!

 

[Taunton]

Has the issue at Euston with Pendolinos been fixed yet, which has been prevalent since their introduction 15 years ago, that they have Wireless loading of reservation detail but the transmitters in the station have insufficient power to do this reliably.

 

[Llanigraham]

Has the issue at Euston with Pendolinos been fixed yet, which has been prevalent since their introduction 15 years ago, that they have Wireless loading of reservation detail but the transmitters in the station have insufficient power to do this reliably.

Had that problem this week; no reservations shown above the seats and ended up moving twice because people said that they had reserved the seats I sat in. Don't think the reservations were showing even when I got off at B'ham International.

 

[PHILIPE]

An IET Paddington to Carmarthen today had the reservations out, great. A person tweeted that she and her family had reserved seats specially but on arrival at Swansea had to move all their luggage from the one 5 Car portion to the other because the Carmarthen reservations had been placed in the Swansea portion. If anybody is not aware, only one portion continues beyond Swansea to Carmarthen due to platform lengths.

 

[Starmill]

An IET Paddington to Carmarthen today had the reservations out, great. A person tweeted that she and her family had reserved seats specially but on arrival at Swansea had to move all their luggage from the one 5 Car portion to the other because the Carmarthen reservations had been placed in the Swansea portion. If anybody is not aware, only one portion continues beyond Swansea to Carmarthen due to platform lengths.

Hm. That has gone less well than it might have done. GWR seem to be struggling mightily to manage reservations on 80x services, for some reason.

 

[gallafent]

This is what I don't understand. If your seat is occupied but there are plenty of spare seats why bother trying to turf someone else off 'your' seat?

In order to ensure one is sitting in a seat in which nobody else will come along and ask you to move since they have reserved it.

 

[trebor79]

Well yeah, I just find an unreserved seat if there are plenty available. If there are none, or they are all reserved I'll turf the miscreant out of my seat.

 

[yorkie]

In order to ensure one is sitting in a seat in which nobody else will come along and ask you to move since they have reserved it.

If the seats are actually spare, as in no-one currently sat in them, and no reservation labels/displays to indicate they are reserved, then no-one has the right to ask you to vacate any such seat.

 

[underbank]

This is what I don't understand. If your seat is occupied but there are plenty of spare seats why bother trying to turf someone else off 'your' seat?

Because I want one either forward or backward facing? Because I want a decent full view window seat? Because I want to sit with the rest of my group? Because I want to sit at a table/not at a table? In first class, because I want to sit at a table for 2 not 4, or 4 not 2? Loads of reasons why people reserve a particular type of seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because I want one either forward or backward facing? Because I want a decent full view window seat? Because I want to sit with the rest of my group? Because I want to sit at a table/not at a table? In first class, because I want to sit at a table for 2 not 4, or 4 not 2? Loads of reasons why people reserve a particular type of seat.

Because I used the seat selector on VTWC's website and chose a specific seat, so I want that one. Normally it's for extra legroom, by reserving the non-priority seat of a pair including a priority seat (VTWC priority seats are all aisles rather than pairs, which makes a lot of sense).

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I can travel alone no problem - just so annoying coming across the reservation issues when I select a seat and am given a seat number.

Thankfully GWR shouldn't have too many more problems with this - they said from Christmas that there'll be a hybrid reservation. This means that you can book a seat on an IET and still have that reservation even if an HST turns up.

I've never yet had this problem with CrossCountry trains!

 

[al78]

Well yeah, I just find an unreserved seat if there are plenty available. If there are none, or they are all reserved I'll turf the miscreant out of my seat.

How do you propose to turf someone out of your reserved seat if they refuse to move? I doubt you could physically move them. Unless they move at the will of the train manager you are on a loser.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Exactly why I don't believe in reservations being cancelled !

On the 16:31 from Liskeard to Reading, the 8-car HST wasn't exactly jam packed but finding an alternative would have potentially meant having to move from there. I didn't properly think to check the non-reserved priority seat in Coach C - mind you someone physically disabled may have needed that seat.

Thankfully the mother with 2 or 3 kids got off at Plymouth. I said there's an unreserved coach F and offered the spare seat next to me but she stayed where she was.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly why I don't believe in reservations being cancelled !

I doubt any TOC does it deliberately, but sometimes it is unavoidable, perhaps to either systems failure (screen/printer) or some other reason.

 

[Qwerty133]

Exactly why I don't believe in reservations being cancelled !

On the 16:31 from Liskeard to Reading, the 8-car HST wasn't exactly jam packed but finding an alternative would have potentially meant having to move from there. I didn't properly think to check the non-reserved priority seat in Coach C - mind you someone physically disabled may have needed that seat.

Thankfully the mother with 2 or 3 kids got off at Plymouth. I said there's an unreserved coach F and offered the spare seat next to me but she stayed where she was.

Sorry but you need to change your behaviour. Rather than telling someone to go and sit in what you consider the unreserved coach you should have gone and found a seat in it yourself.