Retford Low Level Station

[Tomnick]

I'd forget about swapping the designation of the running lines - the effect on the linespeed for through trains would be unacceptable. I'd guess that's why the down fast lost its platform face in the first place - to allow the speed, on a really quite tight curve, to be raised as far as possible. A more direct route between the low level and the Down Slow platform would ease the problem, but - whichever way you look at it - it's still, and always will be, a long way between them!

 

[trentside]

There is actually a public footpath that runs beneath platform 2 and the path that provides access to the low level (see attached image), but I'd imagine that the costs of connecting this to the station would be prohibitive. If this subway were available it would reduce the connection time quite substantially - but I don't think it's a realistic possibility.

 

[CallySleeper]

This suggestion has been brought up with EMT, however limited paths between Worksop and Retford

I also dismiss this response. Seems to me there's at least two potential ways forward here:

1. Extend RHL to Retford (HL?).

2. Swap the timetable round so xx25 terminates at Mansfield and xx55 goes to Worksop.

This would improve connections to NR services. To keep connections from NR services you'd obviously want to keep the current xx38 train to Nottingham. In doing so (as opposed to xx08 to Nottingham) you would allow for the extension to Retford as trains at Mansfield and Worksop would have a ~30 minute layover.

The current timetable by my calculations requires eight five trains. By my calculations if you were to swap the timetable round and/or give trains a ~30 minute layover at either Mansfield or Worksop, the whole line would also require only five diagrams.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Tomnick]

I haven't looked at it in detail, but how can extending the turnarounds at both Mansfield and Worksop (extended to Retford) save three diagrams?! I can't see any way of achieving it without costing an extra unit.

 

[CallySleeper]

I haven't looked at it in detail, but how can extending the turnarounds at both Mansfield and Worksop (extended to Retford) save three diagrams?! I can't see any way of achieving it without costing an extra unit.

Just recounted while you posted.

 

[Tomnick]

That makes more sense - you had me worried for a minute . Even then, though, they run with fairly tight turnarounds at either end (do they interwork too?), and are constrained by the single line sections anyway, so I'm not sure how you'd squeeze any more out of them!

 

[CallySleeper]

That makes more sense - you had me worried for a minute . Even then, though, they run with fairly tight turnarounds at either end (do they interwork too?), and are constrained by the single line sections anyway, so I'm not sure how you'd squeeze any more out of them!

15 mins Nottingham, 5 MWoodhouse, ~7 Worksop. Yes they do interwork though strangely separating them by adding 30 mins at one end doesn't increase the required number of trains.

 

[Tomnick]

Thinking out loud now, sorry...!

Currently, if I'm not mistaken, a typical off-peak diagram is:

xx:25 Notts - Worksop (x1:30)
x1:38 Worksop - Notts (x2:42)
x2:55 Notts - Mansfield W (x3:32)
x3:37 Mansfield W - Notts (x4:14)

If I've not gone wrong somewhere, that means that the whole lot can be covered by four diagrams currently? Extending the Worksop turnbacks to Retford (with a long layover there, coming back in the same path an hour later after Worksop) would require an extra diagram, as would a shorter turnaround at Retford (coming back half an hour later than currently, occupying the path of the Woodhouse starter beyond there) as the turnarounds at Mansfield W'house would have to be extended to 30-odd minutes to allow them to drop into the 'other' path. The latter option would also stop the Worksops interworking with the Mansfield turnbacks - not sure whether that'd help at all or not.

 

[CallySleeper]

I've got five diagrams currently: Leaving Nottingham at x025 WRK x055 MSW x125 WRK x155 MSW x225 WRK then the first train is back for x255 MSW.

Currently they all alternate between Worksop + Woodhouse journeys so total 4:14 diagram (why I originally thought eight diagrams)

My proposal is this:

2 solely Mansfield diagrams:
NOT dep x055 and x155
MSW arr x132 and x232
MSW dep x207 and x307
NOT arr x240 and x340

3 solely Worksop diagrams:
NOT dep x025 x125 x225
WRK arr x130 x230 x330
(RET arr x140 x240 x340)
(RET dep x156 x256 x356)
WRK dep x208 x308 x408
NOT arr x310 x410 x510

Separating them does give Mansfield diagrams an additional 30 mins layover. But in doing so, you could move the Worksop journeys to xx55 from Nottingham for better connections at Worksop. A 38 minute layover here also allows for connections to the Nottingham train, and also allows for time to extend to Retford - if there is paths. Even if there isn't you could keep the current xx25 from Nottingham to keep it separate from Northern Rail services.

 

[Tomnick]

That all sounds fair, and well thought through - but I think you've overestimated the current requirements! The unit for the xx:25 Worksop, as we both agree, will be back in time to work the x2:55 Woodhouse (the fifth departure since it first left), but the shorter round trip means that it'll then be back again for the x4:25 Worksop (the eighth departure). Over a four hour typical cycle, eight services out of Nottingham, with each diagram covering exactly two of them - so four diagrams in all .

 

[CallySleeper]

You're right. Four diagrams. I think it's too late for this!

Anyway, the point is that connections at Worksop could be improved by switching the paths round, and/or adding an extra train to increase layover/extend to Retford.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

What would be even nicer would be if it could then continue to Gainsborough Central!

The spare paths at Trent Junction are even tighter than the ones at Retford - Worksop, now we are into the cold snap coal trains are taking up most of the paths.

There is actually a public footpath that runs beneath platform 2 and the path that provides access to the low level (see attached image), but I'd imagine that the costs of connecting this to the station would be prohibitive. If this subway were available it would reduce the connection time quite substantially - but I don't think it's a realistic possibility.

We took the group down the underpath that connects the car park at Retford with a housing estate on the otherside, it was dark and damp, it was so bad even Les Dawson would not take the Mother In Law down there.

 

[ashworth]

I still stand by my earlier comment that it's a better connection or through service between the Robin Hood Line and Sheffield that is desperately needed and would be far better used than an extension to Retford.

Passengers from Nottingham, with lots of luggage, travelling to the North East and Scotland via the ECML are not going to want to travel for almost 1 hour 15 min on a local stopping service via Mansfield and Worksop to reach a very infrequent ECML service at Retford which always requires an additional change at either Doncaster or York. That is without thinking about the connection times at Retford.

Whenever, I travel on the Robin Hood Line to and from Worksop, I can't help that notice how lightly loaded the trains are throughout the day between Mansfield and Worksop and I am surprised that the line can currently even justify an hourly service outside peak times. That is certainly not the case on the southern half of the line where most trains between Mansfield and Nottingham are quite busy even with a half hourly frequency.

Most of the communities along the line north of Mansfield (all in Derbyshire!) including Shirebrook, Langwith, Cresswell and Whitwell, look far more towards Sheffield than Nottingham for employment, shopping and leisure. People from those stations would naturally probably far more prefer to travel to/from Sheffield than Nottingham but that journey will never attract many passengers with a 40 minute wait for a connection at Worksop on the outward journey. I am convinced that if a journey time of under 1 hour could be achieved from Mansfield to Sheffield the northern half of the Robin Hood Line would see significant growth in passenger numbers. You only have to look at the large numbers of passengers travelling to and from Worksop to Sheffield in comparison to Nottingham.

Currently, if ever I want to travel to Sheffield and beyond to stations in Yorkshire or to the Manchester area, I drive to Alfreton and park cheaply there or occasionally to Chesterfield, although parking charges are high there. I only ever use the connection at Worksop if I'm going away for a few days and want to leave the car at home and even then using the bus to Alfreton is often more attractive.

Even though it should result in greatly increased passenger numbers from Mansfield northwards East Midlands Trains are not interested in trying to improve the connection situation at Worksop. I have written to them on a couple of occasions and the response I get is that the main purpose of the Robin Hood Line is access to and from Nottingham and that is their priority.

Any timetable changes on the Robin Hood Line are going to be very difficult to bring about whether it is for extensions of the service to Retford or Sheffield or even better connections at Worksop with Northern Services. EMT see the main purpose of the service as serving Nottingham and its onward connections. I always find that hard to believe whenever I return from a day out somewhere arriving in Nottingham in the evenings often with a long wait because of the badly timed connection.

The single line sections south of Kirkby in Ashfield will always cause problems in timetabling. Currently to speed trains up through this sections trains miss out the stops at either Newstead or Bulwell to allow the half hourly daytime frequency to run to time. Even a few minutes change to the timings in either direction will cause problems here. As both the Sheffield and Lincoln services just about pass at Worksop and arrive and depart at approximately the same time each hour it ought to be easy for good connections to be provided to all destinations. If the train from Nottingham arrived in Worksop about 7 minutes before the Northern Services and then departed again about 7 minutes later that would mean good connections and only a maximum of 15 minutes layover time for the EMT service. There are one or two times in the evening where this arrangement currently takes place. To do this it would perhaps need a slight speeding up of the Robin Hood Line Services by Worksop services missing out both Newstead and Bulwell. However, it would probably be very difficult to do this because of timings over the single line sections and platform occupation and movements at Nottingham.

I know that my posting has been rather long and complicated but I do use the Robin Hood Line regularly and know many of the problems.

 

[CallySleeper]

Passengers from Nottingham, with lots of luggage, travelling to the North East and Scotland via the ECML are not going to want to travel for almost 1 hour 15 min on a local stopping service via Mansfield and Worksop to reach a very infrequent ECML service at Retford which always requires an additional change at either Doncaster or York. That is without thinking about the connection times at Retford.

No, but what about passengers from say Ashfield north for whom it would be quicker and easier to get to Doncaster via Worksop and not Nottingham - myself included.

Whenever, I travel on the Robin Hood Line to and from Worksop, I can't help that notice how lightly loaded the trains are throughout the day between Mansfield and Worksop and I am surprised that the line can currently even justify an hourly service outside peak times.

The trains may be quieter but reduce the service from hourly and I'm sure there would be complaints.

Most of the communities along the line north of Mansfield (all in Derbyshire!) including Shirebrook, Langwith, Cresswell and Whitwell, look far more towards Sheffield than Nottingham for employment, shopping and leisure.

"naturally probably"? Nottingham and Sheffield are big cities, but is there nothing in closer Chesterfield (bus/car) or Mansfield (bus/car/train)?

Even though it should result in greatly increased passenger numbers from Mansfield northwards East Midlands Trains are not interested in trying to improve the connection situation at Worksop. I have written to them on a couple of occasions and the response I get is that the main purpose of the Robin Hood Line is access to and from Nottingham and that is their priority.

I'm not sure that better connections at Worksop will necessarily cause the passengers to come flocking in numbers, for the reasons above. Granted there is more in Sheffield, or Meadowhall, but I'm sure that the likes of a journey to Chesterfield or Mansfield by road would suffice. At the southern end a frequent service to Sheffield direct from Nottingham wouldn't warrant passengers from southern stations to make the journey via Worksop.

I think by your own admission you can understand why EMT feels they should put their focus where the passengers are. I also appreciate where you're trying to come from with saying there is more demand towards Sheffield than Retford, but what about passengers trying to get to Lincolnshire? Again this would be easier for many RHL passengers via Worksop than via Newark.

Either way an extension of the RHL service is obviously not in the franchise agreement, and it would be difficult for EMT to justify based on the increased resources required and whether passenger numbers would warrant it. That's before you try and find an hourly path.

If the train from Nottingham arrived in Worksop about 7 minutes before the Northern Services and then departed again about 7 minutes later that would mean good connections and only a maximum of 15 minutes layover time for the EMT service... However, it would probably be very difficult to do this because of timings over the single line sections and platform occupation and movements at Nottingham.

Yes it would. As demonstrated in earlier posts, a thirty minute layover at northern termini would be more manageable.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Had a look at the DfT site for improvements for the East Coast line stations.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/east-coast/

Nothing for Retford Low Level.

 

[trawscymru27]

Had a look at the DfT site for improvements for the East Coast line stations.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/east-coast/

Nothing for Retford Low Level.

East Coast must like Stonehaven - they've renamed it 'Stoneheaven'!