Return trip London to the North-west

[Shimbleshanks]

I need to make a return trip from London to the Northwest, outward round about 19.00 Wednesday evening, returning from the Liverpool area on Friday mid-morning. Is there any sort of off-peak saver ticket or combination of tickets I could use without having to buy two peak singles? eg a ticket to some point mid-way between the two cities like St Helens?

Or buy a Saver return to Crewe and singles for the Crewe-Manchester and Liverpool-Crewe legs?

I don't want to use tickets that restrict you to a specific train as I will need a certain amount of flexibility. Also I only want to use the fast trains ie Virgin not London Midland.

 

[Romilly]

An offpeak return from London to Liverpool is £79.70 and would be valid for outward travel on the 12th after 1845 and valid for coming back mid-morning. So far as I can see, although someone will no doubt correct me if I am wrong, this is valid for travel via Manchester and there are no restrictions on breaking your journey.

So that's the benchmark, seemingly.

To add to this, I think that London to Liverpool is valid via Manchester using Routeing Guide map combinations LC+NO or LC+NR. That means travelling via Wilmslow (and Crewe), not via Stoke and Macclesfield. So on a weekday evening, I think that the first available train to Manchester using this ticket would be the 1940.

 

[John @ home]

Yes, you should be able to use an appropriate Off-Peak Return. To calculate which Off-Peak Return is best, we need to know the date and time of your Manchester - Liverpool leg.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Many thanks for the advice. Reading my original question, I don't think I phrased it very clearly.


So can I buy a Saver return from London to Manchester, travel out with it to Manchester on Tuesday evening and then use that ticket to return from Liverpool to London mid-morning on Friday? Even though my return ticket says Manchester to London not Liverpool to London?

 

[John @ home]

can I buy a Saver return from London to Manchester, travel out with it to Manchester on Tuesday evening and then use that ticket to return from Liverpool to London mid-morning on Friday?

No. A London - Manchester Off-Peak Return is not permitted via Liverpool.

But a £79.70 London - Liverpool Off-Peak Return is permitted via Manchester. Among other sites, East Coast will sell this ticket to you.

But we don't know if that is the best ticket for you. It depends on what additional rail travel, if any, you intend to undertake between the Tuesday evening and the Friday morning.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

No. A London - Manchester Off-Peak Return is not permitted via Liverpool.

But a £79.70 London - Liverpool Off-Peak Return is permitted via Manchester. Among other sites, East Coast will sell this ticket to you.

But we don't know if that is the best ticket for you. It depends on what additional rail travel, if any, you intend to undertake between the Tuesday evening and the Friday morning.

Thanks for that - I didn't know that. I will probably be getting a lift between Manchester and Liverpool. The London-Liverpool off-peak return sounds like a good bet. Presumably I can use it just to travel as far as Manchester on the outward journey?

 

[John @ home]

Presumably I can use it just to travel as far as Manchester on the outward journey?

Yes. Here are full details of the £79.70 London - Liverpool Off-Peak Return, including time restrictions.

Note the line "Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES". This means that this ticket allows break of journey on the outward leg, allowing you to end your London to Liverpool journey at any intermediate station, including Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[kieron]

A £79.60 London-Birkenhead Hamilton Square return is valid on the same London-Manchester and Liverpool-London trains, and is slightly cheaper. You don't need to visit Birkenhead at any point.

 

[jkdd77]

The NRE website claims that two tickets are needed for London- Liverpool via Manchester.

Whether this is enforceable is a matter of some debate, particularly if, as appears to be the case, other internet sites will sell the ticket with reservations.

 

[yorkie]

The NRE website claims that two tickets are needed for London- Liverpool via Manchester

Whether this is enforceable is a matter of some debate

It's not a requirement to check the NRE planner, according to the front page of the Routeing Guide or the National Rail Enquiries website.

If anyone was to claim it was a requirement, I would point out that for such a 'requirement' to exist, that would constitute a material change, which would require DfT approval (of which there is no evidence) and also a consultation with Passenger Focus (which definitely hasn't happened, and PF are opposed to any such requirement).

See Routes validated by National Rail journey planner.

particularly if, as appears to be the case, other internet sites will sell the ticket with reservations.

If a ticket is booked with an accompanying itinerary, then that is a valid itinerary, irrespective of whether or not it's a permitted route (which in this case it is). See Routes permitted by booking engines

 

[John @ home]

I would be confident using a London - Liverpool ticket via Manchester, but I would book online, print an itinerary from the booking engine used, and carry it with me on the journey. I would also obtain a seat reservation for the Euston to Manchester part.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I would be confident using a London - Liverpool ticket via Manchester, but I would book online, print an itinerary from the booking engine used, and carry it with me on the journey. I would also obtain a seat reservation for the Euston to Manchester part.

I've tried using thetrainline.com and selecting via Manchester in the Advanced options but it will only give me this for the 20.30 from Euston to Warrington for some reason.

 

[bb21]

Try www.eastcoast.co.uk

It works for me.

Edit:

Yup, thesheepline seems to mess it up on this one.

 

[kieron]

Try www.eastcoast.co.uk

It works for me.

Edit:

Yup, thesheepline seems to mess it up on this one.

I don't know if that's their fault. I haven't checked the easements, but maps LC+NO and LC+NR both show routes from London to Liverpool via the Styal line to Manchester, but not via Stockport. None of the other London-Liverpool combinations show both Euston and Manchester. This means that you'll normally have to use a slower train to go via Manchester on a permitted route.

All of the journey planners work out the fastest train and only then look to see if it's valid.

If you ask NRE for a route that goes via somewhere like Styal, it will give some through tickets. It doesn't give ones at the requested times, as requesting routes using stations the train doesn't call at is fairly hit-and-miss. The 1940 from London to Manchester goes that way anyway.

As WebTIS will happily sell tickets with an itinerary via Stoke, I'd get one of those and reserve a seat on the Manchester train.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Many thanks for all who offered advice on this. In the end I went to the Virgin ticket desk at Euston and asked the lady there who confirmed that, yes, a London-Liverpool saver was valid via Manchester. I then just had a little trouble persuading the guy at the ticket barrier that, yes, I really did want to get on the Manchester train even though my ticket said Liverpool.