Revenue Protection & Contactless Payment

[BestWestern]

Something that occurred to me recently about the above. Tube trains carry prominent notices stating you must show on demand a ticket or validated Oyster etc; what is the position with contactless payment? One would presume you cannot be compelled to hand over your bank card for examination, and of course the card, unlike a ticket or Oyster, is not the legal property of TfL/LUL/TOCs etc. So, having paid by this means, what exactly is the procedure if approached by an RPI?

Just an idle thought!

 

[najaB]

So, having paid by this means, what exactly is the procedure if approached by an RPI?

I agree they can't compel you to hand it over, but then since you've failed to show that you have a validated contactless payment card they would be within their rights to issue a penalty fare.

 

[BestWestern]

I agree they can't compel you to hand it over, but then since you've failed to show that you have a validated contactless payment card they would be within their rights to issue a penalty fare.

So what are they looking for be satisfied you have the correct documentation, simply being in possession of a contactless card? Do they validate or collect details? I would presume any such activity would be frought with legal complications?

 

[najaB]

So what are they looking for be satisfied you have the correct documentation, simply being in possession of a contactless card? Do they validate or collect details?

Based on previous forum posts, I believe they can only check that your card *could* have been used to tap in - i.e. that it is a 'live' contactless card that isn't blacklisted. They aren't able to tell in real-time if you did actually use it to tap in.

 

[TEW]

And it marks the card in the system as being checked in the back office system. If you have touched in, it will correspond with that and all will be fine. If you haven't touched in you are charged an amount to your card. Do it too many times and the card will be blacklisted, and staff will be able to see that when they inspect the card.

 

[BestWestern]

Ah ok. What I was interested in was whether they have authority to examine the details of one's bank card, or indeed whether that was 'off-limits'. So, in essence, you are obliging yourself to offer up said card if asked, when you choose to use it as payment for travel. That pretty much lines up I guess.

The process TEW mentions above is interesting though. So one presents the 'wrong' bank card for whatever reason, and as that card hasn't been touched in, it will be charged automatically to cover the discrepency? What is the authority TfL/LUL have to make a charge against a card without the cardholder's prior agreement? Is there an updated set of Cons of Carriage of equivalent setting all of this out?

I'd add that I don't have any issue with contactless, I use it frequently and it's a good system. I'm merely curious as to how the industry has tackled the various complexities it brings.

 

[causton]

I have seen a penalty fare that has been issued from someone who had a contactless payment card, and the revenue officer that issued it told me (indirectly, colleague of a colleague sort of thing) that the new readers could say that the person definitely did not touch in. Is this general messroom wibble or actually true?

I mean, they *could* maintain a live database of touches in and out and transmit the info via 3G/4G to the new readers, but do they, and is there the bandwidth available to do so? (The latter was why IIRC Oyster validators/barriers send the data of touches overnight and why the Oyster system takes a couple of days to record everything online)

 

[TEW]

Ah ok. What I was interested in was whether they have authority to examine the details of one's bank card, or indeed whether that was 'off-limits'. So, in essence, you are obliging yourself to offer up said card if asked, when you choose to use it as payment for travel. That pretty much lines up I guess.

The process TEW mentions above is interesting though. So one presents the 'wrong' bank card for whatever reason, and as that card hasn't been touched in, it will be charged automatically to cover the discrepency? What is the authority TfL/LUL have to make a charge against a card without the cardholder's prior agreement? Is there an updated set of Cons of Carriage of equivalent setting all of this out?

I'd add that I don't have any issue with contactless, I use it frequently and it's a good system. I'm merely curious as to how the industry has tackled the various complexities it brings.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/contactless-conditions-of-use.pdf

That's the contactless conditions of use. It obliges you to offer your card for inspection when asked by a member of staff or police officer, including it being read by a handheld device. You also agree to pay an fare due, including any maximum fares.

 

[najaB]

What is the authority TfL/LUL have to make a charge against a card without the cardholder's prior agreement?

Presenting the card for validation gives them that authority.

 

[MikeWh]

I have seen a penalty fare that has been issued from someone who had a contactless payment card, and the revenue officer that issued it told me (indirectly, colleague of a colleague sort of thing) that the new readers could say that the person definitely did not touch in. Is this general messroom wibble or actually true?

Messroom wibble.

The reader cannot tell whether the card has touched in or not. All it can tell is whether it is possible that the card might have touched in - i.e. is it a working CPC and/or has it been blacklisted. If a penalty fare had been issued then either the card was blacklisted or didn't work.

Also, from a legal point of view, the card (or other device) doesn't actually leave your hand/posession. You offer it to the inspector who places the reader over it and the reader says yes or no.

 

[island]

Ah ok. What I was interested in was whether they have authority to examine the details of one's bank card, or indeed whether that was 'off-limits'. So, in essence, you are obliging yourself to offer up said card if asked, when you choose to use it as payment for travel. That pretty much lines up I guess.

Well, it's not much different to not handing over your Oyster card or paper ticket for examination when requested, in that not doing so renders you liable to a penalty fare or prosecution.

 

[najaB]

Well, it's not much different to not handing over your Oyster card or paper ticket for examination when requested, in that not doing so renders you liable to a penalty fare or prosecution.

The difference there is that, technically, the Oyster card/paper ticket is property of the railway.

 

[MikeWh]

The difference there is that, technically, the Oyster card/paper ticket is property of the railway.

But, as I said in my earlier post, you don't actually hand over your CPC. You hold it out and a reader is placed over it. You are in control all the time.

 

[najaB]

But, as I said in my earlier post, you don't actually hand over your CPC. You hold it out and a reader is placed over it. You are in control all the time.

I know that, I was saying that is why they can ask you to hand the Oyster/ticket over but only ask you to present the CPC to the reader.

 

[MikeWh]

I know that, I was saying that is why they can ask you to hand the Oyster/ticket over but only ask you to present the CPC to the reader.

Although in practice they don't actually take Oyster cards either. At least as long as it gets a green light they don't.

 

[swt_passenger]

The TfL paper I linked to last week that explains the "Transit Transaction Model" also explains how revenue protection works with contactless cards:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2712667&postcount=21

 

[matt_world2004]

Can you just hand your wallet over so they scan it with the little machine thing,?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Most people don't even go that far, just keep hold of it and let the inspector wave their magic wand over the wallet.

 

[BestWestern]

Most people don't even go that far, just keep hold of it and let the inspector wave their magic wand over the wallet.

Oooh err!!

 

[Deerfold]

Oooh err!!

Glad that wasn't just me.