Reverse formation

[JoeGJ1984]

I've heard that some trains end up in reverse formation (i.e. they're supposed to have first class towards London, but can end up the other way around and have to be turned), but how can this happen? (Because the trains are reversible so just reverse direction at the termini, so the first class will always be towards London).

 

[O L Leigh]

This can happen because the train may reverse en route but then run direct back to it's originating point, effectively forming a triangle. Any train running from Liv St to Cambridge via Stansted Airport would arrive in reverse formation because a reverse would be needed at Stansted. If it then ran direct back to Liv St the train would be in reverse formation when it arrived.

Another way this could happen is if a train can form it's back working without having to reverse. We had a service that ran up to Stratford in the mornings and instead of reversing went around Channelsea Curve and the High Meads line which formed a loop with the Temple Mills line. Therefore you could work it up to Stratford and back down to Bishops Stortford again without having to leave the cab.

O L Leigh

 

[LexyBoy]

Not all routes are a simple line from London to a destination. If a train goes around a loop or triangle at the end of the route it will end up being reversed.

This usually happens when a train has been routed on a diversionary path, for example when there are signalling problems at Didcot, Oxford bound trains often go up the mainline and then back round the power station curve, resulting in them arriving in Oxford in reverse formation.

 

[krus_aragon]

One daily (M-F) example for you: the ~08:02 FGW service from Cardiff Central to Swansea is always reversed: first class at the Swansea end. This is because on the way from Paddington it calls (and reverses) at Temple Meads.

 

[Clip]

i remember going to Tenby a few years back and i think that reversed twice.. Im not to sure but it defiantly did once..

can any of our wales lot confirm this?

 

[Oracle]

I was on an HST out of Temple Meads, heading for Reading and Paddington via Bath. It reversed and turned round at Dr Days Junction. I can imagine that it had been turned already as a result of a reversal at TM and after beiing sent to South Wales.

 

[Gmac]

All down to diversions and then they do try and get things back to normal formation

 

[ainsworth74]

You can get reverse formations either being caused or corrected at Newcastle as there are two ways to approach the station from the south. The normal way will leave first class at the London end but if you get diverted over one of the other rail bridges you will end up with first class at the country end.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Happens a fair bit on the MML due to the triangles at Trent and Trowell allowing trains to and from the North to reverse at Nottingham. The big problem is the depot at Derby as a train ending at Nottingham and returning to Derby will be reversed, so if it was to end up on Sheffields the next day it would be reverse formation.

WCML sets can easily get reversed at Birmingham, although it was rarer. I've only once seen a set reversed, interestingly it arrived at Manchester with the loco coupled to the north facing DVT. Not sure if Pendolinos get turned much.

ECML reversals can occur at Newcastle and Edinburgh for HSTs, but I don't think there is an easy reversal for electrics and I've never known a Mk4 set reversed. I have though twice seen 91s running blunt end north.

GEML sets can reverse via the Wensum Curve at Norwich, or the triangle at Manningtree, but I don't think this has ever happened.

 

[142094]

Electrics can be reversed at Newcastle as one line over the High Level and the part between it and the King Edward Bridge south junction is also electrified.

 

[flymo]

i remember going to Tenby a few years back and i think that reversed twice.. Im not to sure but it defiantly did once..

Reversing at Swansea and Carmarthen perhaps ?

 

[Geezertronic]

WCML sets can easily get reversed at Birmingham, although it was rarer. I've only once seen a set reversed, interestingly it arrived at Manchester with the loco coupled to the north facing DVT. Not sure if Pendolinos get turned much.

I was on a 390 last week in reverse formation from London to BHI, strange really as I had caught the same 390 the day before ex Euston and it was in normal formation

 

[jopsuk]

Cross Country services can/do reverse at various locations.

(with the mix of layouts and seeming frequent reversals, the 1st class on a four-car West Anglia unit can be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th carriage, and unless it is in the first carriage (black triangle) it's hard to know where it will be as the train pulls in, unless the departure board says)

 

[DarloRich]

Electrics can be reversed at Newcastle as one line over the High Level and the part between it and the King Edward Bridge south junction is also electrified.

Correct but i can only recall traveling north of York once on a "reverse formation" 91/mk4 combo. That was Electric on the southhern end of a northbound train and first calss towards the north end of the train. Can a full full 91/mk4 combo set be turned anywhere on the southern end of the ECML.

 

[Clip]

Reversing at Swansea and Carmarthen perhaps ?

aye thats the one.. couldnt remember .. nice journey that too... also is there an airforce bay along there as saw a jet doing back and forward very low over one stretch of land..

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I was on a 390 last week in reverse formation from London to BHI, strange really as I had caught the same 390 the day before ex Euston and it was in normal formation

There was one in reverse formation at Birmingham New St. on Tuesday also.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Not sure if Pendolinos get turned much.

I certainly agree with you Chris, I can't think of any daily occurances of it happening.

It did however happen alot when Pendos used to be dragged over the S&C- on departure of Preston northbound, FC would end up being at the north end on arrival of Carlisle and Glasgow.

Also on a few southbound runs over the S&C, Pendo's departed Glasgow in reverse formation, in order to make them leave Preston the right way round.

 

[CosherB]

Back when I was a regular on WCML I caught a train at Milton Keynes for Crewe that was reverse formed (Mk 3s and an 87 in those days). The station chaos was made worse by the announcment that 'first class will be at the rear of the train' as usual. If the station staff had known of the reverse formation, they could have made a correct announcement that First was at the front, so passengers would be properly positioned on the platform.

The result was passengers trying to get from front to back, and from back to front, in the aisles, with their luggage, and tripping over luggage on the floor, after the train left MK! Chaos!

 

[Ticket Man]

the pendos get turned quite often when theres engineering at birmingham int or coventry. they get diverted via stafford and loop round to wolverhampton and approach bimingham from the north on some late night services and then run light back to wolves to be stabled

 

[12CSVT]

In the case of EMT 222s it appears to be a totally random guess whether first class will be at the London end or Country end. Even when there haven't been any diversions via Corby there seems to be no consistency.

 

[142094]

Correct but i can only recall traveling north of York once on a "reverse formation" 91/mk4 combo. That was Electric on the southhern end of a northbound train and first calss towards the north end of the train. Can a full full 91/mk4 combo set be turned anywhere on the southern end of the ECML.

I think you can do it in London somewhere but I'm not exactly sure of how it is done (think I remember the use of a triangle layout somewhere).

 

[swt_passenger]

In the case of EMT 222s it appears to be a totally random guess whether first class will be at the London end or Country end. Even when there haven't been any diversions via Corby there seems to be no consistency.

It'll be down to the normal reversals at Nottingham and the depot location at Derby surely? I doubt it would be easy to ensure all diagrams heading for the depot via Nottingham also entered service via Nottingham?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you can do it in London somewhere but I'm not exactly sure of how it is done (think I remember the use of a triangle layout somewhere).

Finsbury Park to the NLL via Canonbury curve - westbound along the NLL then reverse eastbound down North London incline and back to Finsbury Park is one way. Probably can do it the other way round as well?

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I believe after FGWs reverse-everywhere-diversion gala held at selected weekends ( :P ) I think they run an ECS from Paddington to Paddington via the High Wycombe Single, South Greenford and Ealing Broadway, or the other way round..

 

[umontu]

The 185's of TPE seem to be going through this at the moment, anyone know why?

 

[142094]

The 185's of TPE seem to be going through this at the moment, anyone know why?

Reversing? TPEs are never normally in a set formation on the routes around here, only thing I can think of is that a coupling may have a problem and it needs to go the other way around when forming a two unit train.

 

[Pumbaa]

The idea was that FC on 185s is at the Piccadilly end, but in reality this is almost possible to adhere to.

 

[umontu]

Hmm fc was always at the Leeds end of Huddersfield but now it isn't as often.
I might just be getting on weird sets.
I always try to get to the section next to first class because it's quieter.

 

[Darandio]

Correct but i can only recall traveling north of York once on a "reverse formation" 91/mk4 combo. That was Electric on the southhern end of a northbound train and first calss towards the north end of the train. Can a full full 91/mk4 combo set be turned anywhere on the southern end of the ECML.

One Mk4 set was turned on Wednesday on the HL. I am not sure which end was which at the time as I was crossing the King Edward on the 10:23 from Darlington so it could have been a planned turn due to running wrong direction previously.

I have seen it more and more recently though, at least since the weight restriction was lifted on the HL. In fact, within the last 2-3 months I have been at Newcastle and seen 2 Mk4 and 1 Mk3 set leave wrong end out of Newcastle. The last one, I actually spoke to the driver on the platform as he was waiting to take over the set from from Edinburgh and it was called ahead due to a faulty wiper on the DVT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 185's of TPE seem to be going through this at the moment, anyone know why?

Late running, seen and been on them several times.

Coming into Newcastle, especially if running 30 or more minutes late get sent onto the Gateshead loop around the High Level Bridge and generally into platform 4 rather than going into the bays as normal. I can only presume this is to eliminate the need to cross the down line from the bays on departure. Hence the set is turned.

 

[142094]

One Mk4 set was turned on Wednesday on the HL. I am not sure which end was which at the time as I was crossing the King Edward on the 10:23 from Darlington so it could have been a planned turn due to running wrong direction previously.

I have seen it more and more recently though, at least since the weight restriction was lifted on the HL. In fact, within the last 2-3 months I have been at Newcastle and seen 2 Mk4 and 1 Mk3 set leave wrong end out of Newcastle. The last one, I actually spoke to the driver on the platform as he was waiting to take over the set from from Edinburgh and it was called ahead due to a faulty wiper on the DVT.

I think there is still one working a day from KGX terminating at Newcastle that has to use the High Level to keep up route knowledge.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I think there is still one working a day from KGX terminating at Newcastle that has to use the High Level to keep up route knowledge.

Do you know which working that is?