reversing with passengers

[whoosh]

You have to have the Signaller's permission to start a passenger train from a position light (shunt) signal. Or it has to be printed in the Sectional Appendix (as a local instruction) or Weekly Operating Notice (for arrangements when engineering work occurs).

Otherwise you can't.

 

[Dunnideer]

You have to have the Signaller's permission to start a passenger train from a position light (shunt) signal. Or it has to be printed in the Sectional Appendix (as a local instruction) or Weekly Operating Notice (for arrangements when engineering work occurs).

Otherwise you can't.

And in the first example the signaller has to get permission from the SSM or Control, they can’t just allow it off their own back.

 

[Beebman]

I've an interesting tale from the mid 1990s. I was commuting daily from Twyford to Paddington and I boarded my usual fast service formed by a Turbo. The driver then announced that they would need to swap a staff member with the following slow service (this was still before DOO started so conductors were still being used). The train then pulled forward still with passengers on and ran via the Up-to-Down Relief crossover where we waited on the Down Relief until the stopper had passed, and then we reversed back over the crossover into P4 (Up Relief).

The thing about this crossover is that it was (and AFAIK still is after recent resignalling) only passed for passenger use in the Down direction as its primary use was to allow through trains from London to the Henley Branch, indeed on an SEG Hastings DEMU railtour to Thames Valley branches in the 80s everyone had to get off as the train reversed on this crossover as we were told it wasn't passed for passenger use in the Up direction. It would therefore appear that the move I had on the Turbo was probably unauthorised.

 

[zwk500]

You have to have the Signaller's permission to start a passenger train from a position light (shunt) signal. Or it has to be printed in the Sectional Appendix (as a local instruction) or Weekly Operating Notice (for arrangements when engineering work occurs).

Otherwise you can't.

And in the first example the signaller has to get permission from the SSM or Control, they can’t just allow it off their own back.

Moment of Pedantry - authority can also be published in a Special Traffic Notice for one-off traffic, after being approved by a LOM or OM.

 

[Falcon1200]

The thing about this crossover is that it was (and AFAIK still is after recent resignalling) only passed for passenger use in the Down direction as its primary use was to allow through trains from London to the Henley Branch, indeed on an SEG Hastings DEMU railtour to Thames Valley branches in the 80s everyone had to get off as the train reversed on this crossover as we were told it wasn't passed for passenger use in the Up direction. It would therefore appear that the move I had on the Turbo was probably unauthorised.

Think would be down to the signalling arrangements rather than any unfitness of the points, ie there would be a signalled move through the crossover in reverse (set for moves between the Relief Lines) in the Down, from Paddington, direction, but not in the Up direction, as there would normally not be any need to route trains that way. The crossover is a facing one so is used by passenger trains in both directions !

 

[zwk500]

I am sure i rode trains in the 60s and 70s (when i was a kid) that moved under the authority of a shunt signal. Has the rule changed?

AFAIK, no. However it's possible that enforcement was less stringent or that each location had a exemption. I'm aware of moves being made off Shunt Signals in WTT passenger service (e.g. turning round the triangle at Chester) but don't know if that was just 'the way it was done' or if there was a proper authorisation process.

 

[DM352]

Couple of times in the 90's due to track issues:
1. Tamworth to Stafford on a 304 when Tamworth had two tracks north. Reversed back about third a mile after the triple buzzer on slow to join the fast and went through Tamworth on the fast.
2. About half way between Barrow and Whitehaven on a 142 in a two track section. Guard went to rear cab and triple buzzer to the other line so wrong lined possibly to the single near Sellafield area. I remember the screeching on the 15mph crossover well.

 

[P Binnersley]

I did exactly the move discussed at Whitehaven in the mid 1980's (old layout). Train from Carlisle terminated in bay platform and then an hour later reversed out and ran south through the down (northbound) platform and continued to Lancaster via Barrow. The (now disused) Up platform had track and looked like it was in use. Definitely a disc signal and no FPL for the move into the down platform. Can't remember if there was a separate signal onto the single line.

But the rules were (applied) different then.

 

[plugwash]

I remember riding on a Class 422 Wessex unit out of London Waterloo along the South West Mainline that performed a reverse move to run wrong line passed an engineering block. This would have been sometime in the mid 1990s. This is the only time I can remember experiencing a train reversing on the mainline as a passenger, presumably this was a planned move but it certainly felt odd and surprising.

I've had at least 3 reversals that were not part of a station call as a passenger. All were the result of unplanned dispution.

Two were returning from a holiday on a southeastern high speed train towards london. There was some disruption that meant we couldn't take the normal route to ebsfleet high level. I remember we took a route involving reversing twice, and that we used a connection to HS1 that is not normally used for passengers.

Looking at a map I think we most likely diverted after Rochester and headed through Sole Street Meopham and Longfield, I'm not sure exactly were we reversed, i'm guessing it was in te area of Swanly station, I don't recall entering the station itself but looking at a signalling map it would seem most likely that we did. We entered HS1 at Southfleet junction and then entered what I presume was singlewell loop where we reversed again and headed into London via the low-level platforms at Stratford.

The third I was travelling from Manchester to Cheadle hulme, when we stopped on the fast line just before the tracks reduce from 4 to 2. We sat there for some time before they reversed the train and took us back into platform 1 at Stockport where the train stopped and the doors opened, I mused leaving and trying to get a bus but decided to stick with the train. At stockport we again waited for quite some time before the train was reversed again, then used the points at the south of the station to switch to the slow line, from where it was able to travel to Cheadle hulme.

 

[alxndr]

Virtually all power operated point machines have a built in facing point lock. Some early machines would drive a seperate mechanical lock but there are very few of them left.

I do know of one point machine leading into a yard that had no FPL so they are out there! The FPL blade and rod simply wasn’t there. It was always good fun getting new starters to try and do an FPL test on it, showed whether they really knew what they were supposed to be looking for or not.

Of course, in 99.9% of times they will have an FPL though.

 

[Dunnideer]

I do know of one point machine leading into a yard that had no FPL so they are out there! The FPL blade and rod simply wasn’t there. It was always good fun getting new starters to try and do an FPL test on it, showed whether they really knew what they were supposed to be looking for or not.

Of course, in 99.9% of times they will have an FPL though.

I’ve got one of the ancient (Metrovic?) (SGE?) ones which has a seperate mechanical FPL on my patch that’s always entertaining to show trainees. The winding handle goes in the top and once you put the handle it can only be restored to power operation by the S&T because the button is under the machine cover secured by the 221 padlock, which of course means you can’t actually show a trainee how to wind it. Oh and try not to lose the handle because they stopped making them in 1965 or something so it’s irreplaceable.

Mind you I’ve never known it to actually fail, it just plods on!

 

[Statto]

When the Liverpool Lime Street blockade was on a few years ago, AWC started from Liverpool South Parkway, trains in passenger service shunted northbound from P4, to the crossover, then went southbound through P3

 

[Midland Man]

Rule book module TS1 section 9 clause 9.2:

View attachment 118449

It has been a rule since the year dot and I was told that it’s actually required by an act of parliament, one of the Regulation of Railways Acts from 18whatever.

Virtually every modern power operated point machine has an inbuilt FPL so it only becomes an issue having to secure them if the points lose detection.

I'm not sure that the Act of Parliament was that precise, if there was one. Until recently there was an exception 9.2.2 which said: You do not need to apply...9.2.1. to a shunting movement of a vehicle carrying passengers as long as:
you have made sure the points are fitting correctly
a signal is cleared for the movement
you tell the drive the movement must be made at not more than 5 mph
at one time the movement had to be observed if I remember correctly. This was a regular move at Shipley (the old platform 1) where portions of a Morecambe train from Bradford and Leeds combined and at Wakefield Westgate when the Bradford and leeds portions of a London train combined. Note it just says 'a signal' - not a main aspect. Clearing the signal proved the points had fit up correctly due to the detection and if it wasn't replaced the points couldn't be moved under the train.
Of course despatching or shunting a passenger train using GPL or ground disc signal is a different (though related) matter.

As I recall used to happen many times a day at Shipley on calling Leeds-Skipton trains before the platform (s) on the northern side of the triangle were built

Yes correct - Leeds to Skipton trains were shunted back into platform 1 on the authority of a disc signal from April 1966 after 8 points had been fitted with an FPL. From 22 March 1965 these trains had been routed via Bradford Jct and Skipton -Leeds continued to be so, again using a ground disc signal, until the former P5 (now 2) opened in 1979. Since then as a signalman/signaller I have shunted many passenger trains at Shipley and elsewhere on the authority of GPLs or discs in perturbed situations with no seeking of permission from anyone (Control would know of course) - indeed my boss (Area Inspector), if he could be contacted, would have chided me for wasting his time saying 'you know what to do'! Another location was Horsforth (due to a blockage between there and Leeds) - crossover had FPL. However when these moves were likely to be more frequent a Box Instruction and associated instruction in the Sectional Appendix removed the need for the driver to get the signalman's authority before starting from a shunt signal - e.g. at Pontefract Monkhill for late arrival of turnbacks though the driver would sometimes contact the signaller anyway, and in Horsforth's case the signaller had to exhibit a green hand signal from the box instead.

And in the first example the signaller has to get permission from the SSM or Control, they can’t just allow it off their own back.

I can't find that instruction in the Rule Book - though it might be a local instruction. In my day Controllers were not allowed to give permission for anything to do with rules and regulations!

 

[Signal Head]

I’ve got one of the ancient (Metrovic?) (SGE?) ones which has a seperate mechanical FPL on my patch that’s always entertaining to show trainees. The winding handle goes in the top and once you put the handle it can only be restored to power operation by the S&T because the button is under the machine cover secured by the 221 padlock, which of course means you can’t actually show a trainee how to wind it. Oh and try not to lose the handle because they stopped making them in 1965 or something so it’s irreplaceable.

Mind you I’ve never known it to actually fail, it just plods on!

SGE Type HA. Very solid reliable machines. Not many left now I suppose, one or two at Hellifield, unless they've been replaced recently.

I haven't read the RB Module, but a while ago I was on a diverted train which had to reverse twice. The first reversal was controlled by position light ground signal, the second by a ground disc. All points involved were motorised (HW or Clamp Lock), so no FPL issues.

I suppose the Bransty instance couldn't be categorised as a failure as such, but just an operating difficulty (trains arriving out of sequence).

Many years ago there was a move done at Stoke on Trent if the Down London was running late, where the following stopping train would draw forward and set back into the bay to let it pass. The set back move was definitely done on a shunt aspect, I've been on one or two that did it and saw it myself.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

In the Victoria block last Xmas trains at Balham started southbound on a position light signal. Certainly not suggesting this was irregular though the driver had to check the track to ensure the train was correctly routed at the junction with the Streatham Hill line. (The position lights had no junction feather).

Friendly chat with a driver who was interested in my question about starting using position lights and asked about how the subsequent junction should be approached. To paraphrase - slowly and check the points.

 

[zwk500]

In the Victoria block last Xmas trains at Balham started southbound on a position light signal. Certainly not suggesting this was irregular though the driver had to check the track to ensure the train was correctly routed at the junction with the Streatham Hill line. (The position lights had no junction feather).

Friendly chat with a driver who was interested in my question about starting using position lights and asked about how the subsequent junction should be approached. To paraphrase - slowly and check the points.

Indeed - and ironically, from a GPL signal that the resignalling will replace with a main aspect.

 

[merry]

Was once propelled over a mile on a pax move at Inverness, around 1989 near the end of loco hauled pax workings on the far north line.
Was the last arrival from Thurso/ Wick, came in via the avoiding line past the depot, then propelled into Inverness on the main line, under control of running signals but with guard giving the driver a green light from the "leading" rear carriage of the 5. (then iirc yellow to red as we came into the station).
Never convinced that was a totally legit move, but i guess it might have been allowed under local instructions.

 

[Bill57p9]

I remember an SWT service back in the mid 90s stopping on the down fast at Farnborough after being misrouted. We reversed on the down fast before taking the crossover to stop at the platform.
Nearly 30 years ago though.

More recently I recall BTP clearing the 314 farewell tour at Cumbernauld to allow it to use the siding to reverse.

 

[zwk500]

Was once propelled over a mile on a pax move at Inverness, around 1989 near the end of loco hauled pax workings on the far north line.
Was the last arrival from Thurso/ Wick, came in via the avoiding line past the depot, then propelled into Inverness on the main line, under control of running signals but with guard giving the driver a green light from the "leading" rear carriage of the 5. (then iirc yellow to red as we came into the station).
Never convinced that was a totally legit move, but i guess it might have been allowed under local instructions.

Inverness has a local instruction permitting propelling, and the rule book allows propelling past 1 main aspect signal (and any number of GPLs) in any event.

 

[merry]

Inverness has a local instruction permitting propelling, and the rule book allows propelling past 1 main aspect signal (and any number of GPLs) in any event.

Always did wonder. Looks like it would have been 2 main aspects, maybe 3, local instructions could allow it though. Thanks for confirming.

 

[alholmes]

Was once propelled over a mile on a pax move at Inverness, around 1989 near the end of loco hauled pax workings on the far north line.
Was the last arrival from Thurso/ Wick, came in via the avoiding line past the depot, then propelled into Inverness on the main line, under control of running signals but with guard giving the driver a green light from the "leading" rear carriage of the 5. (then iirc yellow to red as we came into the station).
Never convinced that was a totally legit move, but i guess it might have been allowed under local instructions.

That was a timetabled move - for quite a few years in the 80s Working Timetable had the last train from Wick/Thurso using the avoiding line, and being propelled into the station.

 

[class ep-09]

During HST days on North Cotswold line in Up direction over Honeybourne Bank ( Honeybourne - Moreton in Marsh ) - if the set was underpowered ( one power car working ) , there were instances of the sets not getting to Camden Tunnel over the summit , even if they did not stop at Honeybourne.
Mostly during autumn leaf fall .

Trains were reversed back to Down Cotswold and run back to Evesham / Worcester via not signalled cross over ( part of Honebourne - Stratford junction )

 

[Annetts key]

There is more on FPLs in this topic

 

[Bill57p9]

2T48 (first EMR Lincoln to Nottingham) calls at both Newark stations Monday - Saturday.
It reverses at Newark Northgate and again at Newark Crossing East Junction. Presumably at this latter reversal, the driver walks through the train to avoid being trackside and the move is fully achieved with main aspect signals.

 

[merry]

That was a timetabled move - for quite a few years in the 80s Working Timetable had the last train from Wick/Thurso using the avoiding line, and being propelled into the station.

Thank you, interesting to know. Not sure it would be acceptable as a planned move these days, even if undertaken under main aspects, with LHCS, but at least it was a plan rather than 'local improvisation'.

 

[zwk500]

Thank you, interesting to know. Not sure it would be acceptable as a planned move these days, even if undertaken under main aspects, with LHCS, but at least it was a plan rather than 'local improvisation'.

It is (or was, pre covid) a WTT booked move for the Royal Scotsman charter.

 

[Watershed]

It is (or was, pre covid) a WTT booked move for the Royal Scotsman charter.

It still is. It ran just a couple of days ago.

 

[driver9000]

In the Victoria block last Xmas trains at Balham started southbound on a position light signal. Certainly not suggesting this was irregular though the driver had to check the track to ensure the train was correctly routed at the junction with the Streatham Hill line. (The position lights had no junction feather).

Friendly chat with a driver who was interested in my question about starting using position lights and asked about how the subsequent junction should be approached. To paraphrase - slowly and check the points.

A move like that will have been authorised via instructions in the Weekly Operating Notice.

 

[Falcon1200]

That was a timetabled move - for quite a few years in the 80s Working Timetable had the last train from Wick/Thurso using the avoiding line, and being propelled into the station.

There was a similar move for the long-gone Glasgow and Edinburgh-Inverness sleeper, which was propelled into the North platforms at Inverness.

 

[Friary Yard]

Back in the day when trains had engines and coaches Trains from Cornwall would attach a dining car portion at Plymouth usually a TSO RB and FO
passengers would be allowed to board this portion. The main train would arrive and the engine cut off and run to Laira Shed while the attachment would draw forward
from the adjacent platform and set back onto the main train. All properly signalled and permitted. Interestingly there would be no brake vehicle in the attachment
and the move would be under the control of the Station Passenger Shunter riding in the rear vehicle. The movement would be signalled out of the platform on a single yellow but
I think the return would be by position light.