Riding Non Passenger Trains

[deltic]

Working timetables from the 50s and 60s often mention that military personnel were allowed to travel on various non passenger services - mainly parcel and newspaper trains

 

[Gloster]

Another thought regarding the original post. In much of the the US in the heyday of hitchin’ a ride it was a long distance between settlements and it was often just as far between sources of water. To walk across the country to those distant areas where it was rumoured that there were jobs or gold on the streets risked being stuck out in the desert with no chance of food, water or casual employment. In this country the distances weren’t so great and there was usually water, fruit to nick or the odd casual job available.

 

[6Gman]

Slightly different but a (non-railway) colleague of mine was a daughter of the head honcho of the breakdown train at a major loco depot.

If he was called in and his wife was at work young daughter would tag along and sit in the mess van being plied with tea and biscuits by all and sundry.

I have a feeling it wouldn't be allowed these days . . .

I bet she ticked off some cracking haulage though!

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Ray Bradbury

Drat, and thanks…

 

[Taunton]

Going back to what I presume is the intention of the original question. One of the differences in this country is that we did not have the long hauls that were common in America: anyone hitching a ride was likely to only get a short distance before being found, after which there was a far greater risk of coming into the hands of the local constabulary.

Bit different indeed in the US; the railroads do their own policing and the local forces don't pay any real attention when on railway property, even in the couple of places where you are still likely to encounter them, like Omaha, Nebraska, assembly point for many Union Pacific westbound runs. It may surprise you that it's a hobo tradition not to break any local civil laws, or become a nuisance.

Many of them develop an outsiders' understanding of railroading, what goes where, car types, etc. A bit like enthusiasts. Quite a few have worked on the railway at some point in the past in some minor capacity.

Last one I saw was in Portland, Oregon, just a few years ago. Waiting for the Light Rail there, on a stretch where the Union Pacific out of the city runs alongside parallel, along came an eastbound mixed freight, there was a guy riding, hard up against the front bulkhead of an open log car, middle of the train. A few people on our platform started pointing; others of us knew better ...

 

[eldomtom2]

Bit different indeed in the US; the railroads do their own policing

So did railways in the UK until the BTP was split off with the abolishment of the Transport Commission in the sixties. Geography is probably the primary cause of the differing incidences of "freighthopping" between the US and Europe.

 

[judethegreat]

A few have mentioned the newspaper trains. Didn't they have official seated coaches and were advertised in the public timetables? Often with very circuitous routes though?

And regarding postal and parcels trains - it's not just the risk of a gang waiting trackside to hold it up, but the person riding could easily tamper with the mail whilst in transit.

Some (non-TPO) postal trains, right until the end, did have a couple of seating bays in one carriage for postal staff who travelled to sort the (sealed) bags for different locations whilst on the move. For instance in Reading in '92, two colleagues travelled as passengers on a service train to Birmingham in the afternoon, returning on the Crewe-Dover PPT.

Were there ever any postal trains where the public were officially allowed to travel? I know it was possible to lock the end gangway doors, and indeed some mail carriages had offset end gangway doors..

 

[Gloster]

A few newspaper trains had accommodation for passengers and were publicly advertised, Waterloo-Yeovil and Exeter-Barnstaple, for example, but others were news only. (Or they carried parcels, passengers’ cars, etc.) Some had the odd BSK or similar that was intended for staff, but might sometimes be used by passengers ’in the know’. One of the reason for the reluctance to carry passengers on the dedicated newspaper trains was that passengers can cause delays and there were hefty penalty clauses for late running in the news contracts. And, if you have a publicly advertised train in the timetable, you have to provide alternative arrangements if it is diverted.

 

[judethegreat]

Thanks

I recall hearing tales of people riding one or two nightly services which basically performed some kind of circular zig-zaggy tour of the southern region...?

 

[Falcon1200]

Were there ever any postal trains where the public were officially allowed to travel?

A train I used regularly in the 1980s (which I believe was a long-running service - There are photos of the working in this month's [September 2023] British Railways Illustrated Magazine in 1968) was 1S81 2050 Carlisle-Perth, which consisted of two Postal vehicles and two passenger coaches.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thanks

I recall hearing tales of people riding one or two nightly services which basically performed some kind of circular zig-zaggy tour of the southern region...?

There were some circular , very , very late suburban services in SW London , ditto the West Midlands for New St - Walsall and back again via Soho

 

[Gloster]

Thanks

I recall hearing tales of people riding one or two nightly services which basically performed some kind of circular zig-zaggy tour of the southern region...?

Looking at 1981, there was an 03.30 Victoria to Eastbourne and Bexhill that dropped a van at Redhill and a portion at Three Bridges for Horsham; this included a BSK for Eastbourne. There were also BSK in a couple of the Victoria-Dover trains.

 

[Rescars]

As well as newspapers, wasn't there also a thing about travelling on milk trains? Apart from mixed trains on rural branches, did milk trains ever convey passengers officially on the main line?

 

[Taunton]

"Milk Trains" were a general public euphemism for late/overnight/slow/all stations/tedious trains, which came from times when the churns from twice-daily milking were picked up along rural lines. The expression lasted longer than such services for handling milk, but these had often been timetabled passenger services, just with a van attached - or, I often suspect, never handled milk at all.

Given the general public's normal complete incomprehension about the overall milk business, getting it wrong about the rail element is only to be expected.

Milk was "passenger rated" traffic, like mail and newsprint, as opposed to general freight for coal etc.

 

[Rescars]

"Milk Trains" were a general public euphemism for late/overnight/slow/all stations/tedious trains, which came from times when the churns from twice-daily milking were picked up along rural lines. The expression lasted longer than such services for handling milk, but these had often been timetabled passenger services, just with a van attached - or, I often suspect, never handled milk at all.

Given the general public's normal complete incomprehension about the overall milk business, getting it wrong about the rail element is only to be expected.

Milk was "passenger rated" traffic, like mail and newsprint, as opposed to general freight for coal etc.

Thanks for this. As you say, passenger-rated but non-passenger traffic - noted in some contexts IIRC as a "perishable train". It seems improbable that passengers could ever have found themselves on an express freight consisting of milk tanks.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Premium milk services such as the up Whitland and Wootton Basset may have carried a GW semi-compo brake vehicle for perhaps a few churns - but really for the train guard. (later repositioned in the rear diesel cab)

You can be very sure no passengers would have been legitimately carried - bar maybe some staff on duty , or to do with that .....why take on trouble needlessly ?

 

[Randomer]

There is definitely still a subculture of riding freight trains in mainland Europe, the longer distances and existence of mixed consist trains along with things like uncovered bauxite wagons in Eastern Europe make getting caught much less likely than in the UK.

It is made much more open by people posting videos of such activity on YouTube. I won't post direct links but a brief search for Shiey or Gifgas (also known as Poison who is a very prolific tagger and has tagged some places in the UK) will show quite how many people like watching.

I've definitely spotted people riding freight wagons in Slovenia not quite perfectly hidden when passing a station.

 

[Taunton]

Thanks for this. As you say, passenger-rated but non-passenger traffic - noted in some contexts IIRC as a "perishable train". It seems improbable that passengers could ever have found themselves on an express freight consisting of milk tanks.

The Hemyock branch near Tiverton ran most of the passenger service in the timetable as mixed trains with bulk milk tankers. which were all assembled at Tiverton Junction into an express milk (only) train for London. The lethargic timings on the branch allowed for shunting milk tanks en route, out of the creamery and onto the train. The passenger service lasted as long as it did, to about 1964, because for quite a well-developed valley with multiple bulk creameries there was no bus service. We have discussed the line in the past here. I believe another GWR odd branch, from Whitland to Cardigan, was the same.

 

[robert thomas]

The Hemyock branch near Tiverton ran most of the passenger service in the timetable as mixed trains with bulk milk tankers. which were all assembled at Tiverton Junction into an express milk (only) train for London. The lethargic timings on the branch allowed for shunting milk tanks en route, out of the creamery and onto the train. The passenger service lasted as long as it did, to about 1964, because for quite a well-developed valley with multiple bulk creameries there was no bus service. We have discussed the line in the past here. I believe another GWR odd branch, from Whitland to Cardigan, was the same.

Carmarthen-Aberystwyth was another. I once travelled on a train which had 8 milk tanks behind the engine with just two coaches on the rear. The tanks were shunted off at Pont Llanio.

 

[Magdalia]

A few have mentioned the newspaper trains. Didn't they have official seated coaches and were advertised in the public timetables? Often with very circuitous routes though?

News traffic was almost entirely from London and Manchester, where the printing presses were located. Most newspapers would have separate London and Northern editions. The Scottish newspapers were presumably printed in Glasgow or Edinburgh?

As a teenager I delivered weekday morning newspapers in Cambridge, and they came down on the 0400 from Liverpool Street, which was an advertised passenger train, booked to arrive Cambridge at 0542. The newspapers for each newsagent in the city were sorted on the train, then delivered by van on arrival. Staff at the newsagents then only had a very short time to sort the newspapers for individual delivery rounds to begin at 0700.

Liverpool Street also had news trains at 0245 to Norwich and 0320 to Clacton, but these were not advertised to passengers.

The arrangements for the Sunday newspapers were different.

The last news train that I can remember that still carried passengers was the 0210 Manchester to Cleethorpes which was an advertised passenger train up to May 1987.

Were there ever any postal trains where the public were officially allowed to travel? I know it was possible to lock the end gangway doors, and indeed some mail carriages had offset end gangway doors..

Yes. The "Haughley Mails", between Liverpool Street and Peterborough via Ipswich, conveyed a TPO, and were advertised to passengers until 1980. The 1844 Norwich-Liverpool Street was another advertised passenger train with a TPO. Some of the Kings Cross-Edinburgh overnight trains also had TPOs.

A train I used regularly in the 1980s (which I believe was a long-running service - There are photos of the working in this month's [September 2023] British Railways Illustrated Magazine in 1968) was 1S81 2050 Carlisle-Perth, which consisted of two Postal vehicles and two passenger coaches.

1S81 had a TPO on Mondays to Fridays, but not Saturdays. The TPO went forward from Perth to Aberdeen, as an unadvertised train, at 0105. 1S81 was the descendant of the 1335 Euston-Perth from steam days. Going the other way was there an unadvertised TPO out of Aberdeen at about 1545?

 

[randyrippley]

Illegal reading has me in mind of Fahrenheit 451 by Kurt Vonnegut.

Ray Bradbury


==edit==
someone beat me to it............

 

[Carbean]

Thank you for your replies. I am sure that many freight services carried illegal passengers in the guards van, a freight train guard was a lonely job with no company and sitting in a darkened box was no fun so company would have been welcome. I also think that in the 50s and 60s many railway employee had previous service in the forces and would turn a blind eye to a chap trying to get back to his unit in time for Monday morning. Lotsof us on here after a few drinks have, I am sure, thought about riding a non passenger service.

 

[6Gman]

A few have mentioned the newspaper trains. Didn't they have official seated coaches and were advertised in the public timetables? Often with very circuitous routes though?

And regarding postal and parcels trains - it's not just the risk of a gang waiting trackside to hold it up, but the person riding could easily tamper with the mail whilst in transit.

Some (non-TPO) postal trains, right until the end, did have a couple of seating bays in one carriage for postal staff who travelled to sort the (sealed) bags for different locations whilst on the move. For instance in Reading in '92, two colleagues travelled as passengers on a service train to Birmingham in the afternoon, returning on the Crewe-Dover PPT.

Were there ever any postal trains where the public were officially allowed to travel? I know it was possible to lock the end gangway doors, and indeed some mail carriages had offset end gangway doors..

In addition to the examples already given:

Holyhead-Crewe (and return)
York-Crewe (and return)
Cardiff-Crewe (and return)

I've used most of them ! !