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'Right Time' vs. 'On Time'

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Aictos

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I was looking at the Raildar website today and upon choosing a random station eg Birmingham New Street, it said:

Today through this station

Avanti West Coast has had 29 arrivals; 14% Right Time, 86% On Time, 0% Late, 0% Very Late.
Transport for Wales has had 2 arrivals; 50% Right Time, 50% On Time, 0% Late, 0% Very Late.
CrossCountry has had 78 arrivals; 22% Right Time, 78% On Time, 0% Late, 0% Very Late.
LNWR has had 134 arrivals; 29% Right Time, 69% On Time, 1% Late, 0% Very Late.


So what is the difference between Right Time and On Time then? Is there a need for Right Time when On Time to the untrained eye seems to be the same?
 
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ComUtoR

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So what is the difference between Right Time and On Time then? Is there a need for Right Time when On Time to the untrained eye seems to be the same?

'On Time' is PPM where you arrive within 5 minutes.
'Right time' is the new metric where the train is measured at each station to within a minute.
 

Aictos

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'On Time' is PPM where you arrive within 5 minutes.
'Right time' is the new metric where the train is measured at each station to within a minute.

Okay so if I'm a driver on a DOO service and I leave say a minute early, does that mean my train is on time or left right time?

I understand how it works with arrivals though with your explanation above, which I appreciate :)
 

Horizon22

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Okay so if I'm a driver on a DOO service and I leave say a minute early, does that mean my train is on time or left right time?

I understand how it works with arrivals though with your explanation above, which I appreciate :)

You'd be RT (right time) in that instance. On Time wouldn't apply to an intermediate station. On Time is generally known as "within PPM"
 

Aictos

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Thanks guys, I guess I'm just used to trains being late or on time when life was just more simpler.
 

ComUtoR

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The additional measures, that add to the old performance metrics, reflect that good performance needs to be delivered throughout the whole journey and that every minute matters for passengers.The official measure of punctuality used up till now, known as the public performance measure (PPM), considers trains to be punctual if they are five or 10 minutes after schedule, for short and long-distance trains are respectively, at their destination. The new measures will report cancellations and the proportion of trains arriving to the minute at every station on the timetable, known as a ‘station stop’, where technology allows (currently, we can measure this at 80% of all stops and we are working to increase this).


PPM has always been a bit of a scam. Hopefully the move to 'RTR' or 'RT' (right time railway) will be a more realistic reflection of how trains are actually running. Websites like RTT (realtimetrains) already reflect accurate running times. When you put PPM and RT side by side you really see how poorly trains run.

My TOC currently has a 94% RT figure. Compared to 70% during 'normal' running :/
 

Horizon22

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PPM has always been a bit of a scam. Hopefully the move to 'RTR' or 'RT' (right time railway) will be a more realistic reflection of how trains are actually running. Websites like RTT (realtimetrains) already reflect accurate running times. When you put PPM and RT side by side you really see how poorly trains run.

My TOC currently has a 94% RT figure. Compared to 70% during 'normal' running :/

I sort of half agree. PPM was bad because not everyone is going from origin or point A to destination. Some are making intermediate trips or in the case of somewhere like Southeastern they might get off at London Bridge or Waterloo East instead of Charing X/ Cannon St. So being 6L at London Bridge but only 4L at Charing Cross would be a PPM "success". Planners can also add lots of padding between the penultimate stop and the destination.

However is being 2-3L that bad or even perceptible to the majority of passengers? Obviously cutting down on unnecessary delays are important, but most timetables can't run to RT and haven't been built to be. I'd doubt most commuter TOCs could even get close to 90+% RT and most don't even set their target to do so.
 

StephenHunter

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Okay so if I'm a driver on a DOO service and I leave say a minute early, does that mean my train is on time or left right time?

I understand how it works with arrivals though with your explanation above, which I appreciate :)

Doesn't it mean you're in trouble for leaving early?
 

Merle Haggard

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Judging the performance of a train operator on the proportion of trains that arrived at terminating station was a performance indicator that encouraged perverse and counter-productive behaviour - but this ought to have easily been foreseen by those who decided it should be applied.
Midland Main Line quickly realised that there was no penalty for not stopping at an intermediate station so Up trains ran non-stop from Leicester and passengers already aboard for intermediate stations were evicted. For the passenger from intermediate stations the train was effectively cancelled; combined with the introduction of 2 car trains, the cancellation also meant that the following service was likely to be too full to board. But, hey, 'We're the right time railway' as one of the later franchisees often said.
There was also the balance of penalty between cancellation and lateness; some trains, not shown as 'cancelled', never turned up before the next one but access to TOPS/TRUST showed that they did indeed run, though several hours late.
The delay/repay is a much better system because it reflects real passengers' actual delays.
I am also puzzled why VWC, until the end, displayed posters every 4 weeks showing proportions of trains late and cancelled, but London Midland ceased doing so.
 

ComUtoR

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I sort of half agree. PPM was bad because not everyone is going from origin or point A to destination.

For me, the introduction of RT highlighted how dishonest PPM really was and how the TOCS seemed to game the system. It also highlights how much they only care about KPIs and not about people. With the move to RT the TOCs are now tweaking the timetable and are finally paying attention to SRTs and better pathways. Dwell times are now at the forefront and the planning departments are finally listening to us at the front line when we have been saying that getting to station X takes 5 minutes and not 4.

However is being 2-3L that bad or even perceptible to the majority of passengers?

Not at my TOC. We are a Metro TOC with a turn up and go service. The majority of people during the day have almost no concern about the timetable and only care about 'when' the next train is. Commuters are different and they lean towards an end to end mentality. Is their train late and will it get into London on time. The intermediate timings might as well not exist to them. Mainline services are again very different. People who are travelling on advance tickets or have airport connections etc. People are looking for very specific trains at very specific times.


Obviously cutting down on unnecessary delays are important, but most timetables can't run to RT and haven't been built to be.

Agreed 100%. They have been built to PPM. A little padding here, pathway allowances there and a huge reliance on end to end running. I suspect as RT becomes the norm and as a performance measure it becomes more important. I suspect that the timetable will be built to more realistic running time. Faking journey times drives me crazy. I've been doing the same X-X trips for years and the route has never changed but they have been shaving minutes and 'making your journey faster' but in reality the journey time remains the same it has always been but the service just runs within PPM :/ In my role I log journey times. The timetable does not reflect reality. Hopefully RT will change that.

I'd doubt most commuter TOCs could even get close to 90+% RT and most don't even set their target to do so.

Scary isn't it. A large chunk of trains don't actually run to time. However, I find that the demand to run trains within a minute to be unreaslistic. The expectation is way too high tbh. Even when RT is pushing 80% I am impressed and when people say that trains are 'always late' or those that bemoan how bad the railway is etc. I look at the incredible feat of running thousands of services to within such a tiny margin.

The next thing to throw out is..., well I Trust you have an idea what that may be...
 

baz962

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No idea . Stop holding the doors and getting on/off one door maybe ?
 

ComUtoR

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No idea . Stop holding the doors and getting on/off one door maybe ?

So true.

Corona has certainly shown the effect that passengers have. I'm on time everywhere. Its awesome !
 

The Planner

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Planners can also add lots of padding between the penultimate stop and the destination.
Looks like i have to dust this one off again. You are talking about public times vs working times. If a TOC wants to offset its arrival time then thats up to them. A planner is not going to stick a load of time in the WTT for that reason. The only time you do is to add 30 seconds if you arrive at a terminal station on a half minute.
However is being 2-3L that bad or even perceptible to the majority of passengers? Obviously cutting down on unnecessary delays are important, but most timetables can't run to RT and haven't been built to be. I'd doubt most commuter TOCs could even get close to 90+% RT and most don't even set their target to do so.
You need to elaborate on the timetables arent built to run on time as that is frankly rubbish. There are lots of reasons they do not, but to say we allow any old thing in is a bit offensive to be honest.
 

ComUtoR

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You need to elaborate on the timetables arent built to run on time as that is frankly rubbish. There are lots of reasons they do not, but to say we allow any old thing in is a bit offensive to be honest.

I mean no offence and you have been amazing in many many of my previous posts. You have my upmost respect. ♥♥

However,

As we have discussed before about how SRTs are built, how TRUST works, planning rules etc etc. They do not reflect station to station timings. I literally leave my departure station and the very next station is only timed for 3 minutes. It ALWAYS takes 4. On the incoming trip you can be late at the previous station but gain a minute back. We also get delay requests for the same section over and over again. The timings just don't work. I have been 'late' between X and X for 15+ years !!!111eleventy1 !!

I often get frustrated with the 'timetable' and you have been one of a few who ameliorate that frustration with your insight. The Man with the Plan is another who puts me on the straight and narrow too.

My TOC has never cared about RT until we have been forced to. Being late at intermediate stations has always been 'normal'

The 'padding' thing is odd. Perception is that time is added and trains 'miraculously' make time back right at the most crucial times. That perception is what drives people to believe the timetable has been 'padded' When I first started it was known as 'make up time' places where we were always late but was given 'make up time' to put the service back. As I mentioned. We get stations where we are always late but make it back a couple of stations later. I have learned that this is 'pathing' 'diamond time' and indeed 'performance' time allowances. How else is that to be perceived other than 'padding' ?
 

baz962

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So true.

Corona has certainly shown the effect that passengers have. I'm on time everywhere. Its awesome !
Only on time. I'm early everywhere . I'd almost forgot what a red aspect was , until I got one yesterday too.
 

Bald Rick

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My TOC currently has a 94% RT figure. Compared to 70% during 'normal' running :/

That’s a railway without passengers for you ;)


Judging the performance of a train operator on the proportion of trains that arrived at terminating station was a performance indicator that encouraged perverse and counter-productive behaviour - but this ought to have easily been foreseen by those who decided it should be applied.
Midland Main Line quickly realised that there was no penalty for not stopping at an intermediate station so Up trains ran non-stop from Leicester and passengers already aboard for intermediate stations were evicted.

You are mistaken. Any train that misses a booked call is counted in the stats as both a PPM failure *and* cancelled. This incurred two penalties, and expensive penalties at that.

My TOC has never cared about RT until we have been forced to.

Well she is a forceful lady, and NR is very pleased to have her back ;)
 

Merle Haggard

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You are mistaken. Any train that misses a booked call is counted in the stats as both a PPM failure *and* cancelled. This incurred two penalties, and expensive penalties at that.

I note that you speak in the present tense. Out of curiosity, did this apply from the start of the privatisation? (The NE-MML situation I was referring to was ca 1997)
 

Bald Rick

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I note that you speak in the present tense. Out of curiosity, did this apply from the start of the privatisation? (The NE-MML situation I was referring to was ca 1997)

Yes, it has been the case since track access contracts went ‘live’ in 1994/5.
 

The Planner

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I mean no offence and you have been amazing in many many of my previous posts. You have my upmost respect. ♥♥

However,

As we have discussed before about how SRTs are built, how TRUST works, planning rules etc etc. They do not reflect station to station timings. I literally leave my departure station and the very next station is only timed for 3 minutes. It ALWAYS takes 4. On the incoming trip you can be late at the previous station but gain a minute back. We also get delay requests for the same section over and over again. The timings just don't work. I have been 'late' between X and X for 15+ years !!!111eleventy1 !!

I often get frustrated with the 'timetable' and you have been one of a few who ameliorate that frustration with your insight. The Man with the Plan is another who puts me on the straight and narrow too.

My TOC has never cared about RT until we have been forced to. Being late at intermediate stations has always been 'normal'

The 'padding' thing is odd. Perception is that time is added and trains 'miraculously' make time back right at the most crucial times. That perception is what drives people to believe the timetable has been 'padded' When I first started it was known as 'make up time' places where we were always late but was given 'make up time' to put the service back. As I mentioned. We get stations where we are always late but make it back a couple of stations later. I have learned that this is 'pathing' 'diamond time' and indeed 'performance' time allowances. How else is that to be perceived other than 'padding' ?
I have stated this before and now right time railway will in my opinion level the playing field a bit more as well as hopefully giving NR a bit more impetus to challenge more.

I don't deny there are many SRTs and items in the planning rules that are off slightly or plain wrong. The issue we have is that under PPM and the congested state of the network, trying to alter these is a very difficult job. If a SRT is short and you want to increase it to the correct value, does it bust the timetable? and even if it doesn't why would a TOC want a journey time increase when they can also say the "incorrect SRT, delay to train planning" and NR not really wanting to fight at a dispute. Same goes for an inflated SRT, why let NR get rid of a bit of time up your sleeve unless it does anything for you?
Now that the measure is changing, it will all of a sudden be a bit more collaborative and things will get fixed in a lot of cases (not all as some will cause a sizable unraveling)

Padding is a down to an understanding of what the allowances are for, and in your example above, likely an inflated dwell or SRT allowing that to happen. Chances are it wasn't deliberate.

You have four allowances, engineering recovery [box time] which is there for recovering from TSRs, if there isn't one then you are early at a timing point but if we don't have it then you are importing a delay in.
Pathing time (circle time) is there to keep trains apart to the planning headway value, so if a headway is 4 minutes and you are catching say a stopper up, we would add in circle time to keep you 4 minutes behind it. That is assuming you stay back at a green aspect so you keep to the achievable speed and thus the SRT, but there are a number of factors that are difficult to factor in to that such as professional driving, reading through aspects etc...
Adjustment time {squiggle time} which is to allow for approach control, speeding up from a slow joining junction etc..
Performance time <diamond time> is the only out and out padding, and there is not a lot of it about and is normally at the TOC request, you won't find many examples of it in the planning rules. That is normally approaching a known congested area, though in my opinion if the SRTs and TPR are correct, you shouldn't really need it.
 

edwin_m

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You have four allowances, engineering recovery [box time] which is there for recovering from TSRs, if there isn't one then you are early at a timing point but if we don't have it then you are importing a delay in.
Pathing time (circle time) is there to keep trains apart to the planning headway value, so if a headway is 4 minutes and you are catching say a stopper up, we would add in circle time to keep you 4 minutes behind it. That is assuming you stay back at a green aspect so you keep to the achievable speed and thus the SRT, but there are a number of factors that are difficult to factor in to that such as professional driving, reading through aspects etc...
Adjustment time {squiggle time} which is to allow for approach control, speeding up from a slow joining junction etc..
Performance time <diamond time> is the only out and out padding, and there is not a lot of it about and is normally at the TOC request, you won't find many examples of it in the planning rules. That is normally approaching a known congested area, though in my opinion if the SRTs and TPR are correct, you shouldn't really need it.
Just to note on some route some allowances aren't explicitly stated but the times shown are inflated compared to what the train can achieve.

There are also cases where the WTT is annotated to the effect that the public arrival time is later or departure time earlier, which in effect is another form of padding.
 

Deepgreen

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Okay so if I'm a driver on a DOO service and I leave say a minute early, does that mean my train is on time or left right time?

I understand how it works with arrivals though with your explanation above, which I appreciate :)
I would hope neither!
 

Deepgreen

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I sort of half agree. PPM was bad because not everyone is going from origin or point A to destination. Some are making intermediate trips or in the case of somewhere like Southeastern they might get off at London Bridge or Waterloo East instead of Charing X/ Cannon St. So being 6L at London Bridge but only 4L at Charing Cross would be a PPM "success". Planners can also add lots of padding between the penultimate stop and the destination.

However is being 2-3L that bad or even perceptible to the majority of passengers? Obviously cutting down on unnecessary delays are important, but most timetables can't run to RT and haven't been built to be. I'd doubt most commuter TOCs could even get close to 90+% RT and most don't even set their target to do so.
2-3L becomes very important if trying to catch another train. Even if that connection is not an advertised one, it is very common for infrequent services to mesh badly with more frequent ones. My example used to be at Redhill, when trying to catch North Downs line departures (2 hourly in the off-peak) from trains from London. The insular nature of the privatised railway is such that trains were not held even for a few seconds when people were running down the platform to catch them. 2-3 minutes would have made the difference countless times.
 

The Planner

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Just to note on some route some allowances aren't explicitly stated but the times shown are inflated compared to what the train can achieve.

There are also cases where the WTT is annotated to the effect that the public arrival time is later or departure time earlier, which in effect is another form of padding.
Disagree, PTT vs WTT is more to allow the clock face timetable. Unless we start showing half minutes in public timetables.
 

ComUtoR

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2-3L becomes very important if trying to catch another train.

Especially at intermediate stops. The move to Right time should allow passengers to meet those tight connections.

The insular nature of the privatised railway is such that trains were not held even for a few seconds when people were running down the platform to catch them.

You can't have it both ways. Trains should either run on time or be held and allowed to run late. Seconds grow into minutes and in some cases the impact is far reaching. The other option is to increase dwell times but then the impact is to have longer journey times. An increased dwell of 30 seconds on a journey with 10 stops is going to add 5 minutes.
 

plugwash

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However is being 2-3L that bad or even perceptible to the majority of passengers?
What it means is that journeys show up in planners that have a substantial chance of misconnecting. Passengers may not notice that their arrival at their final destination is 5 minutes late, they do notice when they dash across a station just to see their connecting train pull out as they reach the departure platform.
 

Merle Haggard

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You are mistaken. Any train that misses a booked call is counted in the stats as both a PPM failure *and* cancelled. This incurred two penalties, and expensive penalties at that.

Thank you for that, I stand corrected. Being a freight person I had to rely for info. on passenger marketing colleagues who were clearly mis-informed.

However, I am now puzzled on several counts; as the National Express iteration of MML is long gone, I don't suppose I'll ever know, BUT;
The trains concerned were only running around 15 minutes late; cutting out the stops meant they arrived at St Pancras 'on time' (within the loose definition for that). So why, if the penalties were so severe, did they incur them just to avoid the 'late at destination' penalty?
Usually, the first service that did make a call was so overcrowded as to be impossible to board; was there also a penalty for this?
Penalties other than that of late arrival at destination were never mentioned on any performance publicity - does anyone know where these penalties are set out to the general public/taxpayer?
 
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