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Rioting students

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Pumbaa

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It disappointing for me to note that despite me bringing it up on two previous occassions, that I shall have to make a third attempt to get you to make any response to the following.

People are losing their jobs.
People are losing their homes.
Families are sometimes broken apart by these stresses.
People have saved thousands for deposits on morgage deals that no longer exist.
People have seen their pensions shrink and retirement plans ruined.
Food and drink prices are increasing rapidly.
Fuel for vehicles and home energy is shooting up.
Insurance costs are escalating.

ALL of the above has far more consequences for people than whether or not you can go to University. Most of these problems spur from the financial crisis, which is exactly why budgets are being cut. Yet people suffering these things have not marched on parliament and city centres, and minorities of them have not desecrated national monuments either.

Then you should have been here yesterday in Liverpool as there was one then. And to the best of my knowledge, this is the fourth in the north-west after a first one in Liverpool in October, 1 last month in Manchester and a third in Stoke.

Also, the BBC among others ran profiles of a) non-students at the protests both on the 9th and earlier who supported the student cause, including business people, shop owners, parents and public sector workers and b) non-students who marched against the cuts and for the problems that you list above.

Everyone is entitled to their right to protest, and although I won't go so far as to say other groups of people are lazy, they have no organisation to act alongside, other than NUS and Unite. I am pretty sure we will see continued protests by people of all walks of life, up and down the country next year. Year of discontent anyone?

Particularly here in L'pool, some large firms have announced large lay-offs in the New Year, including BAE. The cost of living is rising, the assurances are disappearing and those who are most at risk are workers and public sector jobs where public sector jobs hold up a large proportion of the total regional workforce, ie north east/north west/south west in particular. Just wait, I bet you there'll be marches, protests, riots. Return to the 80s anyone?!

Regardless, please don't think I'm an undergrad whinger. I'm a PhD student with falling sponsorships and grants, all living costs rising and uncertainty over a future job, that was initially promised when I embarked on it. Part of my doctorate also involves teaching undergrads, as do most Russell Group doctorates, and I can already see at first hand the money saving ideas that are being developed to cope with the withdrawal of funding, and associated fall in student numbers struggle to keep everything the very best. Needless to say I don't like them, my colleagues and peers don't like them, and this further fuels my protestation at these plans.
 
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yorkie

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Particularly here in L'pool, some large firms have announced large lay-offs in the New Year, including BAE. The cost of living is rising, the assurances are disappearing and those who are most at risk are workers and public sector jobs where public sector jobs hold up a large proportion of the total regional workforce, ie north east/north west/south west in particular. Just wait, I bet you there'll be marches, protests, riots. Return to the 80s anyone?!
What will that achieve?

Yes, rich countries are getting poorer, the gap is narrowing. Is protesting, marching and rioting going to help? I think not.
 

Geezertronic

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Is protesting, marching and rioting going to help? I think not.

Protesting will help, marching might too. But once it gets to violence and riots then people (like me) who would normally be supportive of the cause will just turn around and say bollocks to the lot of them

I'm not directly affected by the rise in tuition fees however my daughter is 13 now and even now we have to consider what she may want to do in the future. If she wants to go to University, I will do everyting I can to allow her to do so regardless of the fee (unless it extracts the urine of course)
 

Pumbaa

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Yes, rich countries are getting poorer, the gap is narrowing. Is protesting, marching and rioting going to help? I think not.

The former two will. But there is no certainty, only opportunity.
 

Geezertronic

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And people wonder why students don't trust student loans?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11994421

But to be fair, that could happen with any loan company or bank. It happened with me and Barclays before, all of the money was repaid.

It's also happened with me and the old Norwich Union and car insurance payments (again all money was repaid) so it's not specifically student loan companies that suffer this sort of incompetence.

At the end of any loan period or payment period, it's up to us to cancel the direct debit/standing order to stop this from happenening - well that's what Norwich Union told me at the time and advice I have taken onboard
 

TrainBrain185

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Not you anyway.
Then whom do he be then I wonder??????:lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The fact is that when applying for a lot of jobs nowadays, an degree sets you above the rest because it shows your commitment. If we go for the two tier system, then it will effectively set ability to pay above ability to learn, screwing job prospects accordingly.
Commitment? Get outta here will you? You are living in a fantasy world! Sets you above the rest does it? I gladly prefer to live with the rest in that case....
 

yorkie

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scotsman's argument makes no sense whatsoever.

He is saying that Uni places are decided by "ability to pay", however this is untrue and you do not pay a penny until you have a job paying a decent wage, he says that this is "screwing job prospects" but if you do not get a good job you don't pay! It makes no sense!

As for the article, it was almost pure hyperbole. Very little factual material. I hope his essays are not like that.

Very few people who are anti-fees are actually putting forward a credible argument. Pumbaa is one of the few who does put together a decent argument. But most, like Scotsman are just not credible, sorry. Also, at least Pumbaa acknowledged the violent actions were wrong. Not many students or ex-students have done that, and I find that concerning.

I don't agree with TrainBrain185 on many issues (he is right wing, I am left wing (but I have no like at all for the far-left/anarchists), and he hates my favourite type of train!) but on this issue, I do agree with him!
 

scotsman

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scotsman's argument makes no sense whatsoever.

He is saying that Uni places are decided by "ability to pay", however this is untrue and you do not pay a penny until you have a job paying a decent wage, he says that this is "screwing job prospects" but if you do not get a good job you don't pay! It makes no sense!

As for the article, it was almost pure hyperbole. Very little factual material. I hope his essays are not like that.

But, the longer you wait to pay - the higher your interest repayments are!

Feel free to give some examples of my 'hyperbole'

I've had only one disagreement from the public (and he was a friend of mine who rarely agrees with what I say)

EDIT: I have condemned the protests a few times on this forum!
 

yorkie

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Well, I felt I did give an example. How are job prospects "screwed"? And who are they "screwed" for? People who go to Uni and pay higher fees or people who choose not to go to Uni because they object to paying 9% on earnings above £21k? Or are you saying there will be less jobs?

Are you saying people are going to choose to accept lower wages because they don't want to repay these loans? If so, I think you may be misunderstanding. The repayments are only 9% of earnings above £21,000 per year. (The £21,000 threshold will go up with inflation).
 

scotsman

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Well, I felt I did give an example. How are job prospects "screwed"? And who are they "screwed" for? People who go to Uni and pay higher fees or people who choose not to go to Uni because they object to paying 9% on earnings above £21k? Or are you saying there will be less jobs?

Are you saying people are going to choose to accept lower wages because they don't want to repay these loans? If so, I think you may be misunderstanding. The repayments are only 9% of earnings above £21,000 per year. (The £21,000 threshold will go up with inflation).

You seem to be avoiding the fact that students will have to pay interest in these loans. The interest will accumulate while they wait for this employment, which goes back to the argument that the tichest will benefit most since most graduates are unlikely to go from Uni to a £21k job
 

HST Power

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Personally, I agree with the students protest. But the riots have had a very bad affect on their image. It will not win the sympathy from the public but chucking stones at the Police.
Whilst only a few students went along to cause trouble, it appears that this minority have been the centre of attention, thus breaking away from the real reason why they are protesting.
 

LE Greys

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Personally, I agree with the students protest. But the riots have had a very bad affect on their image. It will not win the sympathy from the public but chucking stones at the Police.
Whilst only a few students went along to cause trouble, it appears that this minority have been the centre of attention, thus breaking away from the real reason why they are protesting.

It put me off going on subsequent protests and undermined the entire campaign.

Thanks a lot, idiots!
 

TrainBrain185

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I don't agree with TrainBrain185 on many issues (he is right wing, I am left wing (but I have no like at all for the far-left/anarchists), and he hates my favourite type of train!) but on this issue, I do agree with him!
Thankyou Mr Yorkie. Everyone is indeed different with their views and opinions. Its pleasing we meet this festive season with something we can agree upon.
With that in mind, whats past is past and I wish you my sincere seasons greetings.
 

Geezertronic

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Sorry to bump this old thread but I read about the idiot who threw the fire extinguisher off the roof getting jailed today. What amazed me even more was the footage attached to the news report below as I had not seen it before. I mean, how close was that extinguisher to landing on one of the officers?

Good riddance to the kid, hope he learns some harsh lessons in nick - even if he only serves half his sentence he should count himself lucky he was not on a manslaughter or murder charge...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12159581
 

ralphchadkirk

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Agreed. I was only disappointed that he didn't get longer. He's a disgrace to himself, and all the other students who were protesting peacefully.
 

Freakofnature

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Sorry to bump this old thread but I read about the idiot who threw the fire extinguisher off the roof getting jailed today. What amazed me even more was the footage attached to the news report below as I had not seen it before. I mean, how close was that extinguisher to landing on one of the officers?

Good riddance to the kid, hope he learns some harsh lessons in nick - even if he only serves half his sentence he should count himself lucky he was not on a manslaughter or murder charge...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12159581

Agreed, it was stupid of him, but I think the only thing he's going to learn in prison is how to please a guy as opposed to actually thinking about what he's done.
 

Kneedown

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Agreed, it was stupid of him, but I think the only thing he's going to learn in prison is how to please a guy as opposed to actually thinking about what he's done.

I think he'll be thinking very hard about what he did to end up in his predicament just as soon as he drops the soap!
 

mumrar

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I cannot believe that sections of the media are on about harsh punishment, first offence etc.

They say it's ruined his future prospects, but I'm sorry if you can't so the time.......

Time to learn some different 'A' levels!
 

me123

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What a waste. He had a chance to go on and do good things, perhaps be the first member of his family to go on to Higher Education. And he blew it. I have no sympathy for him. It may just have been a "moment of madness", but that "moment of madness" could have been a lot worse had the fire extinguisher landed elsewhere.

These idiots have done nothing but harm to any efforts to stop the tuition fee increases, and probably have also done a fair deal of harm to their fellow students and other genuine protesters. They deserve just punishment.
 

sprite

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As a student, I feel that his actions greatly damaged our chances of ever being listened to (Like the toffs would....). However, a few people I know passed the BBC link around with the word "justice" and simmilar attached (all unsympathetic to students being shafted becuase the governments -past and present - won't punish the bankers)
However I want to know what is happening to the police officers who dragged a disabled person from his wheelchair and then accross a road, the ones without ID numbers, the one video'ed going upto lower ranking officers and saying whilst grinning "I just punched one of them". Also how do the Police still justify kettling - which seems to only promote violence, infact I think it is the aim of it, and use of medievil warefare tactics such as the cavlery charge?
 

jon0844

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The wheelchair user who can walk, has a blog where he goes around winding up and goading the police (and filming it), managed to climb the stairs at Milbank Tower and was being moved, equally, with everyone else so the police could clear the street?

Personally, I don't care what's happening to the officers. It was a non-event. One person trying to become famous, who had his moment of fame on TV and life goes on. He was never hurt or injured and would have been far more upset if they'd ignored him.

While we'll never know the split between students and those who hijacked the protests, so far it was a student that threw the fire extinguisher, climbed the cenotaph and - who knows - also smashed up the front of Top Shop and attacked Prince Charles and Camilla. The latter is inanely stupid, given how much support (and money) comes from Prince Charles through his trust. Ever heard of not biting the hand that feeds you?

As a student, I would indeed be considering that the actions of these idiots will affect the honest, law abiding, hard working student in being taken seriously in the future. I'm also quite appalled that the various student groups/unions defended what happened. If they had stood united in condemning it, then students might have come out on top.
 
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