Rioting students

[yorkie]

90019, You're obsessed with asking people to answer your questions, when they have already done so, how many threads is that now you've done this?

For the reality, look at this video:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/8193140/Tuition-fees-protesters-on-late-night-rampage.html

As you can clearly see, there are many people attacking the police. The police have to use batons in response to this. The idea that the police are instigating the violence is absurd.

As for the charging, as I said before, why do you think they do it, they don't randomly decide to charge into people for no reason. :roll:

 

[Bish Boy]

If someone charges you on a horse, would you just stand there and let them?

i for one would step out of the way or you know run and i do agree with Yorkie i wouldn't get involved with a riot a protest is fair enough but the minute i saw people hurling rocks and smashing windows etc i'd get outta there not film it on my phone and put it on face book.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm afraid the coalition is living in a dreamworld if it thinks that the poor behaviour of some individuals is going to make us suddenly change our minds and start believing that these fee increases are a wonderful idea which won't skew University uptake away from academic ability and towards entrenched wealth.

We are well aware of the game being played by the vice chancellors who have been conspicuous through their silence about the cut in the education budget, mainly because it supports the agenda they have been trying to push for years.

 

[yorkie]

Can anyone say that the rioters in the video I linked to should be free to roam our streets? You can also almost guarantee that if any of them get hurt they will be phoning mummy and complaining of police brutality. Those claims will then be believed by gullible people. Oh dear!
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I'm afraid the coalition is living in a dreamworld if it thinks that the poor behaviour of some individuals is going to make us suddenly change our minds and start believing that these fee increases are a wonderful idea which won't skew University uptake away from academic ability and towards entrenched wealth.

If it's working toward people with entrenched wealth, why are the wealthy students like Charlie Gilmour so upset about it? And if it's against poor people, why are facilities used by poor people e.g. bus stops and buses, attacked? It's propaganda that has now been well exposed. I've provided figures earlier in the thread, that no-one has challenged, that demonstrate that they are using hyperbole to exaggerate the affect of their 'debts' (which are, in reality, not like normal debt at all)

 

[90019]

90019, You're obsessed with asking people to answer your questions, when they have already done so, how many threads is that now you've done this?

No yorkie, when I ask a question, I prefer it when you give an answer to the question I've asked, not another one which you want to answer.

 

[imagination]

If it's working toward people with entrenched wealth, why are the wealthy students so upset and rioting about it (and moaning at how bad a £21k wage is)? And if it's against poor people, why are facilities used by poor people e.g. bus stops and buses, attacked?

I think that anything was a target for attack - they weren't paying much attention to what they were attacking.

Oh and about the £21k wage - that is £21k in 2016 money - which is actually expected to be LOWER in real terms than the £15k limit when tuition fees were introduced.

 

[Bish Boy]

well instead of whinging about entrenched wealth how about doing something about it go get a job improve your life god forbid start your own company go find your fortune thats the problem with this country to many people blaming anyone but themselves history is full of many poorly educated people making their fortune by hard work. And if wealth is so bad why do all these people want to go to uni oh yeah to get rich.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And history is full of people who have gone to university who have done great things for society.

 

[theblackwatch]

A lot of student unions (mine included) provided free/cheap coaches.

Genuine question this - how are students unions funded?

 

[yorkie]

I think that anything was a target for attack - they weren't paying much attention to what they were attacking.

Yes, they didn't appear to have much in the way of morals.

Oh and about the £21k wage - that is £21k in 2016 money - which is actually expected to be LOWER in real terms than the £15k limit when tuition fees were introduced.

It will go up by inflation each year, unlike the older limit which was static.

The people who are rioting over having to repay the fees are outraged that a small proportion of their earnings above £21k will be repaying the cost of their education. As I said before, that's rather insulting to people who are on low wages.
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Genuine question this - how are students unions funded?

Good question, I am certain I didn't have to pay anything to be a member of the NUS!

So, probably taxpayers. How ironic, we had to pay to get them there, pay (for now..) for their living costs (..in the form of loans), and pay to clear up after them! What do they want, the moon on a stick?

I reckon when they get a job most of them will see things differently.

 

[imagination]

well instead of whinging about entrenched wealth how about doing something about it go get a job improve your life god forbid start your own company go find your fortune thats the problem with this country to many people blaming anyone but themselves history is full of many poorly educated people making their fortune by hard work. And if wealth is so bad why do all these people want to go to uni oh yeah to get rich.

Or to get into the career they want to do - either because it requires a university degree (medical jobs, teaching, law) or because they believe (either rightly or wrongly) that they will be able to get into their chosen career more easily through university.

Or perhaps because they aren't sure what they want to do, and so have decided to do a degree while they make their minds up, and perhaps to HELP them to make their minds up.

Oh and most people who you refer to are individuals with strong entrepreneurial traits to them. The vast majority of people are not like that. I know sure as hell that I'm not.
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It will go up by inflation each year, unlike the older limit which was static.

Yup, and that, in my mind, is the single progressive element of it, and is the main reason why I am actually not strongly opposed to the changes that are being made.

 

[TrainBrain185]

And history is full of people who have gone to university who have done great things for society.

Yes, in proper Universities doing proper Degrees that have a meaning and purpose in society. Not Town and City Colleges pretending to be Universities taking in kids who want to be called a Student doing stupid meaningless Degrees in the most part. Dear me, how far has education got to be watered down? We need to get back to the old days when Universities "were" Universities and teaching only the best of the kids who deserve to be Students through merit.

 

[yorkie]

or because they believe (either rightly or wrongly) that they will be able to get into their chosen career more easily through university.

Yes, although for me, what helped me more than anything was my work placement, not the course. (although I was annoyed at having to pay fees for that! But, like the vast majority of students, I accepted that decision and got on with it, unlike some students who throw a wobbler and try to trash war memorials over something they are not happy with)

Or perhaps because they aren't sure what they want to do, and so have decided to do a degree while they make their minds up, and perhaps to HELP them to make their minds up.

Yes, that's probably what it is for many people, it was for me! But does it help make your mind up? I don't think it does. It didn't for me.

 

[mumrar]

Or perhaps because they aren't sure what they want to do, and so have decided to do a degree while they make their minds up, and perhaps to HELP them to make their minds up.

What? So because they're unsure what they want to do, we should pay thousands of pounds for them to delay making a decision, for them to do something that their heart is not in? That's what free university would mean. But I think you have hit a rather large nail on the head. How many go to university to escape the reality of having to get a job or actually make some grown up decisions? Going to university is for people who want to do it, not confused layabouts.

I faced a similar crossroads when I was part way through an HND. I realised I didn't have the passion for my studies (civil engineering) and that attending another year would be a waste of time and money. So I informed the college during the summer break, and started looking fir a job. Central Trains had customer service posts advertised, and the rest as they say, is history.

 

[90019]

Good question, I am certain I didn't have to pay anything to be a member of the NUS!

You have to pay to be a memeber of the NUS.

 

[yorksrob]

Charlie Gilmour so upset about it? And if it's against poor people, why are facilities used by poor people e.g. bus stops and buses, attacked? It's propaganda that has now been well exposed. I've provided figures earlier in the thread, that no-one has challenged, that demonstrate that they are using hyperbole to exaggerate the affect of their 'debts' (which are, in reality, not like normal debt at all)

I happen to know it's not propoganda because I know very well that such a large debt would have put me off studying - and I come from a relatively humble background - in that my parents would have struggled to offer anything in the way of financial support. Yet I doubt I would have been eligible for the bursery schemes which are laughably put forward as the solution to filling the gap.

All the talk about the interest rate being so low as to be "not like normal debts" is nonsense. Even on a relatively small debt like my student loan the interest kept on building up and up. Add to this the other onerous debt requirements which will be levelled at todays youth in due course.

I am of course commenting on the policy rather than the actions of individuals, so whether one of the rioters is a scion of the Floyd is neither here nor there !

 

[Geezertronic]

And history is full of people who have gone to university who have done great things for society.

And I am sure history is full of people who didn't as well

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And I am sure history is full of people who didn't as well

Yes, that's what the post above mine said - the one I was replying to.

 

[yorkie]

I happen to know it's not propoganda because I know very well that such a large debt would have put me off studying - and I come from a relatively humble background - in that my parents would have struggled to offer anything in the way of financial support. Yet I doubt I would have been eligible for the bursery schemes which are laughably put forward as the solution to filling the gap.

Why would your background or your parents ability or otherwise to pay, be relevant for paying a small proportion of your salary above £21,000 when you are earning that amount? This question has been answered before by others in this tread and the answers we have got gave no economic or financial case.

As I said with my £30k wage example, someone will pay less than £900 of that in fees. So if you can earn £30k regardless, do us all a favour and go and do that without a degree. If you will earn less than £29k without a degree, you are better off with it, as the increased wage will more than cover the repayments.

Is there an error in my calculations?

All the talk about the interest rate being so low as to be "not like normal debts" is nonsense. Even on a relatively small debt like my student loan the interest kept on building up and up.

See the student loan repayment page linked to earlier and it will all be explained!
(Note that your scheme will be different to the scheme that more recent students are on)

Add to this the other onerous debt requirements which will be levelled at todays youth in due course.

Those are real debts and are much more of a concern and have a much bigger impact, e.g. the huge cost of housing now compared to even just 10 or 15 years ago. This is effectively a shift of wealth from younger generations to older generations.

I am of course commenting on the policy rather than the actions of individuals, so whether one of the rioters is a scion of the Floyd is neither here nor there !

I disagree. If we're told the policy is pro-rich, yet rich kids don't like it to such an extent that they are prepared to do actions that will ruin their lives, then something doesn't add up!

 

[yorksrob]

Why would your background or your parents ability or otherwise to pay, be relevant for paying a small proportion of your salary above £21,000 when you are earning that amount? This question has been answered before by others in this tread and the answers we have got gave no economic or financial case.

As I said with my £30k wage example, someone will pay less than £900 of that in fees. So if you can earn £30k regardless, do us all a favour and go and do that without a degree. If you will earn less than £29k without a degree, you are better off with it, as the increased wage will more than cover the repayments.

Is there an error in my calculations?

See the student loan repayment page linked to earlier and it will all be explained!

Those are real debts and are much more of a concern and have a much bigger impact, e.g. the huge cost of housing now compared to even just 10 or 15 years ago.

I disagree. If we're told the policy is pro-rich, yet rich kids don't like it to such an extent that they are prepared to do actions that will ruin their lives, then something doesn't add up!

Debt is debt I'm afraid, and it was certainly real to me when it was mounting up. Are you saying that the interest would be frozen until paid back? I don't think so.

Just because rich kids don't like the policy you assume that it will benefit poor kids !

 

[ainsworth74]

Good question, I am certain I didn't have to pay anything to be a member of the NUS!

Cost me a tenner each year so far.

As for my Uni's union as far as I am aware it's funded by what it sells (alcohol mostly ) and gets a grant from the Uni.

 

[Geezertronic]

Yes, that's what the post above mine said - the one I was replying to.

Sorry, missed that one

 

[scotsman]

The underlining thing in this whole thing is that the minority of people protesting really made a mess of it: their actions (as illustrated by Yorkie's (and the DM's) images) are nothing short of absolutely disgraceful, and I will say that I agree with AussieRail, apart from it would have been AK47s and grenade launchers. To be honest, the actions of those in the pictures make me which that they spend their rest of their lives in crippling debt, because, frankly, they deserve it!

Yeah, because killing a largely innocent group sorts everything out. This just shows no attempt at trying to solve the issue with any sort of peaceful means.

Think of it as 2 children, one insults the other. The other, unable to build a reasoned argument, hits the first.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sorry, missed that one

No worries

 

[yorkie]

Just because rich kids don't like the policy you assume that it will benefit poor kids !

Depending on the criteria used to define "poor" (poor at the start, as in a poor background? If so, no fees to pay! or poor as in they end up in a job paying under £21k? If so, no loan repayments!), but the answer is possibly yes it does, without need for assumptions.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yeah, because killing a largely innocent group sorts everything out. This just shows no attempt at trying to solve the issue with any sort of peaceful means.

Only shoot the ones that defaced Churchill's statue/that stupid pathetic excuse of life hangiing off the Union flag...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Depending on the criteria used to define "poor" (poor at the start, as in a poor background? If so, no fees to pay! or poor as in they end up in a job paying under £21k? If so, no loan repayments!), but the answer is possibly yes it does, without need for assumptions.

Well according to you, it's anyone who travels on a bus.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

What I still don't understand (and anyone please feel free to comment) why protestors younger than 16 were there in the first place? You have to wonder what was in their parents mind if they indeed knew their kids were going to the protest.

Because they care about how their future will be impacted - I would be as well if I was 15. And good on them, if you care about it go make your point! I highly doubt most parents knew or supported, but isn't that what being a teenager is all about?!
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Maaybe the police should be allowed to write their own stories about how the protest turned violent.

Perhaps they should. And perhaps they should also account why their removed their numbers (which is an offence) and the commisioner should account why he felt that 'not deploying firearms' showed adequate restraint on behalf of the Met.

For what its woth in this debate, I can tell you that I was there yesterday, as the parade/demonstration/confrontation passed down Kingsway. I saw the entire processession pass
from places in Kingsway where a number of Police officers were isolating the procession from the adjoining streets.

What I will report on here is: the vast majority of those in the procession were young people, clearly happy to be part of a big and significant event and had every intention of remaining with the body of the procession, moving at a modest walking pace, looking and sounding cheerful and in good spirit.

Exceptionally, there were a few individuals, clearly identifiable by covered faces and enclosed hoods, carrying no banners and not having the cheerful disposition of the majority, who were working outside the body of the procession at potential points of deviation from the route - they were running (some in crouched positions below most sight lines) on the pavements at the periphery of the procession, and at right angles to the procession - where they could achieve a 'break-out'.
When they succeeded, a) others were somehow made quickly aware and a hundred or more protesters would take the diversion,
b) those 'break-out' marches were much more rowdy and agressive in nature, and apparently older; and
c) Police officers were responsive to these 'deviations' and in those cases only did I see personal contact, apparently in an attempt to sustain the planned route and none others.

I saw many police officers' indentification numbers. I wasn't checking so I cannot confirm that numbers were visible on all officers.
Many of those walking in the parade were young - I cannot say if any were under 16 but will say that they would have been a small minority if at all.

I hope this is of some assistance.

 

[yorkie]

Well according to you, it's anyone who travels on a bus.

This is gibberish and false attributing of made-up quotes. There will be a correlation, of course, between people who are 'poor' and people who travel on a bus. The definition of 'poor' is subjective, but it is pretty obvious that if someone does not earn a lot of money, then they are unlikely to own a car, so are highly likely to rely on public transport. To then make the leap that 'anyone' who travels on a bus is poor is not correct.

Just because a service is used by a certain group of people that does not mean that all the people who use that service are a member of that group.

 

[142094]

So if you can earn £30k regardless, do us all a favour and go and do that without a degree.

I guess that you are referring to the taxpayer when you say 'us'? Think a lot of people are forgetting that those who go to university will go on to pay a lot more tax that those who do not go to university. One of the figures is that on average a graduate earns approximately £150,000 more over their working life than non-graduates.

Remember that in many cases universities are large employers in the local area (eg in York the two universities are the 2nd biggest employer in the city), are invaluable for research and bring in investment from many other countries and foreign students who come here due to the quality of the education. Now if we reduce funding by upto 80% in some cases all this investment will go to other EU countries and places like India and China.