RMT demands answers from Scotrail on safe train operation after appalling incident

[Clip]

I can certainly see a case for a hybrid solution of fences with gaps a couple of feet back from the platform edge, and the procedure being that unless everyone is fully behind the fences the train neither enters the platform nor is dispatched.

That will never happen and neither will any PEDs or anything else. Its either guards or no guards and thats it.

 

[HH]

I suppose you could (given enough money) come up with a system where all of the barrier is able to move, and thus can reconfigure itself to any door position/size. I suppose the worry would be that if the system got confused about which train was present, then the doors would open at the wrong place, but this shouldn't be a massive worry as the worst that would happen is people would be stuck on the train for a short time while they were corrected.

That seems very complicated. I had meant stock all having doors in approximately same position. Which would add to the bill of course!

 

[Wolfie]

That seems very complicated. I had meant stock all having doors in approximately same position. Which would add to the bill of course!

Your suggestion about carriage door placement either means that all stock has to be the same length and general design regardless of the application it would be put to or would completely screw station platform flexibility as different platforms would have to be dedicated to different applications (ie one would be set up for "Inter City" stock, the next for "Regional stock" etc etc)...

 

[HH]

Your suggestion about carriage door placement either means that all stock has to be the same length and general design regardless of the application it would be put to or would completely screw station platform flexibility as different platforms would have to be dedicated to different applications (ie one would be set up for "Inter City" stock, the next for "Regional stock" etc etc)...

Not completely true. As long as there is some sort of 'SDO' on the barrier then different types of stock might be catered for. But yes, there would undoubtedly be issues to overcome.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Not completely true. As long as there is some sort of 'SDO' on the barrier then different types of stock might be catered for. But yes, there would undoubtedly be issues to overcome.

The billion pound bill for each platform being the main one.

 

[Wolfie]

The billion pound bill for each platform being the main one.

While I wouldn't expect such a solution to be cheap that figure seems ridiculously excessive and I would love to see it's origin/a justification.

 

[absolutelymilk]

While I wouldn't expect such a solution to be cheap that figure seems ridiculously excessive and I would love to see it's origin/a justification.

That may have been a slightly tongue in cheek comment...

I suspect the cost wouldn't be the software or the hardware itself, but more the testing and the fact that every platform is different meaning that it would have to be redesigned for every single platform.

 

[68000]

Must not forget that the safest railway is one where no trains move and no passengers use it

 

[gsnedders]

Plenty of busy commuter lines in Tokyo have platform edge doors—but they have the advantage of typically having permanent allocations of routes to platforms, and for the most part each route only run by a single type of stock. That said, they do deal with having differing types of stock by having constant carriage lengths and platform edge doors for the varying door positions. I don't see it being practical for the majority of the UK, but I could imagine it happening in some of the busiest stations.

 

[HH]

Plenty of busy commuter lines in Tokyo have platform edge doors—but they have the advantage of typically having permanent allocations of routes to platforms, and for the most part each route only run by a single type of stock. That said, they do deal with having differing types of stock by having constant carriage lengths and platform edge doors for the varying door positions. I don't see it being practical for the majority of the UK, but I could imagine it happening in some of the busiest stations.

It could work for some lines, but let's face it, it's not going to happen because of the cost. And that's the point, everything comes down to what you're willing to spend. Having tried to get DfT interested in step-free access, for instance, I know that you have to pass a Cost/Benefit measure to get the funding. Unless the station is pretty busy (certainly well over 1m passenger journeys a year) it's simply not going to happen.

 

[furnessvale]

Must not forget that the safest railway is one where no trains move and no passengers use it

Christmas Day anyone!

Statistically, one of the quietest days for "one under" suicides on NR.

 

[HSTEd]

Well the simple solution to platform edge doors - it would probably be cheaper to buy new stock so that everything has doors in the same positions on any given route than to fit fancy fence type structures.

Especially since many routes go to near dedicated platforms anyway.

 

[68000]

Well the simple solution to platform edge doors - it would probably be cheaper to buy new stock so that everything has doors in the same positions on any given route than to fit fancy fence type structures.

Especially since many routes go to near dedicated platforms anyway.

Maybe in 30 years time, do you have a costed comparison?

A lot of folk seem to believe that no cost can be put on a life, well there is a cost and always has been therefore decisions about reducing a risk is more to the ALARP principle rather than elimination of the hazard

 

[the sniper]

Plenty of busy commuter lines in Tokyo have platform edge doors—but they have the advantage of typically having permanent allocations of routes to platforms, and for the most part each route only run by a single type of stock. That said, they do deal with having differing types of stock by having constant carriage lengths and platform edge doors for the varying door positions. I don't see it being practical for the majority of the UK, but I could imagine it happening in some of the busiest stations.

I think it's worth pointing out that where PEDs aren't provided in Japan, it's very much the norm for trains to be worked by a Driver and (normally non-commercial) Conductor, who has full operation of the doors.

 

[CosherB]

While I wouldn't expect such a solution to be cheap that figure seems ridiculously excessive and I would love to see it's origin/a justification.

:roll:

 

[Johnuk123]

Maybe in 30 years time, do you have a costed comparison?

A lot of folk seem to believe that no cost can be put on a life, well there is a cost and always has been therefore decisions about reducing a risk is more to the ALARP principle rather than elimination of the hazard

Of course there is a cost on a life otherwise we would have barriers on all foot paths with bridges to cross the roads.

 

[furnessvale]

Of course there is a cost on a life otherwise we would have barriers on all foot paths with bridges to cross the roads.

You missed the important bit. We wouldn't have motor vehicles, they are FAR too dangerous!

 

[gsnedders]

I think it's worth pointing out that where PEDs aren't provided in Japan, it's very much the norm for trains to be worked by a Driver and (normally non-commercial) Conductor, who has full operation of the doors.

I don't think I remember seeing any train worked without a Conductor in Japan—PEDs or not.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

I don't think I remember seeing any train worked without a Conductor in Japan—PEDs or not.

Rural lines with diesel railcars operate without guard I believe. I am not sure if they do it with two car DMU but certainly they don t DOO with 3 car DMU.
On electric lines I Believe there is a Guard at all times

And by Guard one means Guard, not Conductor

 

[74A]

Rural lines with diesel railcars operate without guard I believe. I am not sure if they do it with two car DMU but certainly they don t DOO with 3 car DMU.
On electric lines I Believe there is a Guard at all times

And by Guard one means Guard, not Conductor

No I've seen trains without guards on electric lines. And trains where the driver collects the fares like when you get on a bus !

 

[Flying_Turtle]

No I've seen trains without guards on electric lines. And trains where the driver collects the fares like when you get on a bus !

Thank you for the correction. Having not seen such I assumed they would always have a guard due to the OHL and by usually implying more trains

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Any suggestions of platform edge fencing etc. are just silly. We have operated without them for over 150 years an incidents like this are rare to the point of negligibility. You can't defend against every possible scenario, the money spent on such a scheme would be far better spent replacing some level crossings where there is a provable risk.

 

[TheManBehind]

Any suggestions of platform edge fencing etc. are just silly. We have operated without them for over 150 years an incidents like this are rare to the point of negligibility. You can't defend against every possible scenario, the money spent on such a scheme would be far better spent replacing some level crossings where there is a provable risk.

Incidents were relatively rare when we operated with semaphore, it doesn't mean colourlight signals weren't worth the money!

The bigger issue with PEDs is that they're only feasible where all the stock is the same - i.e. high intensity metro routes.

 

[XDM]

No I've seen trains without guards on electric lines. And trains where the driver collects the fares like when you get on a bus !

Can confirm correct last year. Many rural local lines have drivers collecting fares from driving position, and at least four Tokyo electric routes DOO in 2015.