RMT DOO Dispute on West Midlands Trains

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by footprints, 20 Sep 2019.

  1. footprints

    footprints Member

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    Here we go again!

    https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-declares-dispute-on-west-midlands-trains-over-doo/

    Mod note to all members - Please familiarise yourself with the ground rules of this thread in Post 8 before posting in this thread.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 20 Sep 2019
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  3. RPI

    RPI Member

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    Sadly another operator where you'd be forgiven for thinking that it already was DOO, though only a TOC that I use a handful of times a year but I cant recall ever having a ticket check on WMT and on LM only twice, once from Redditch and once from Worcester.
    It's not just ticket checks though, SWR can be bad for that but a lot of SWR guards at least patrol the trains at night by making one or two walks through the train. Some (and it is some, not all) of these guards really don't help themselves.
     
  4. Meerkat

    Meerkat Established Member

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    “RMT will never compromise on the issues of passenger safety and accessibility“

    Haven’t they previously done deals on DCO and DOO?
     
  5. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Thought that might happen.

    On which routes is DOO proposed?
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The vast majority of south WCML guards seem not to leave the cab. This is really a bit poor regardless of who might or might not do the doors.
     
  7. 700007

    700007 Member

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    This is what I want to find out, but first thought to mind says London to Northampton.
     
  8. OxtedSignaller

    OxtedSignaller Member

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    As long as they provide a second member of staff, who really cares about DCO now... works well on Southern and Scotrail, Greater Anglia have got their new deal where the driver controls the doors. It may even improve punctuality especially on the Cross City line which is a metro-type service in a surbuban area and allow the staff member to undertake revenue and customer service duties more efficiently.

    The only people who seem to have such a big problem with DCO is the RMT but then it seems to be a Guard-led union the same way ASLEF is a driver-led union so not exactly a surprise. They have members who will happily slag off Ticket Examiners and OBS for example yet they do not mind taking their subs every month.
     
  9. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Seems as good a time to lay down some ground rules as any before the thread takes a turn for the worse as always happens:
    1. No discussion about the pros and cons of DOO is permitted. Frankly the vast majority of the forum membership are sick of it and there is plenty of existing discussion in other threads if anyone is interested in reading all the arguments.
    2. No stroppy comments or empty ranting.
    3. Please stick only to facts and not speculation. You must be able to back claims up with concrete evidence even if it were just a quote lifted from another source (with the source clearly identified).
    4. Any other posts not directly related to this dispute will be liable for deletion without notice.
    5. Forum staff retain the final say on these decisions and no challenge on these decisions will be allowed. This applies specifically to this thread.
    Thank you.
     
  10. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I understand the 350s are to be retrofitted with cameras (though I don't think any have been done yet) and DfT policy is for all new units to be so fitted. I guess that just leaves Classes 170 (are any staying?) and 172 which could presumably also be retrofitted? Have I missed any stock that WMT will have by the end of the franchise? If not, all routes does seem technically viable at least.

    OK, there are the 230s, which I guess would be easy enough to fit, though realistically the Marston Vale will always have a second member of crew for revenue collection otherwise it might as well be free.
     
  12. Meerkat

    Meerkat Established Member

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    That press release is a bit vague
    “your Union has been seeking guarantees from West Midland Trains for no introduction of DOO/DCO”
    “it would appear that West Midland Trains position is to have Drivers Open and Close doors on all rolling stock.”

    So WMT haven’t said they actually want DOO/DCO anywhere, they have just refused to sign up to a guarantee that they won’t do it?
     
  13. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    I might be wrong, but I've been told by LM (as it was then) guards I nattered with that they were under instruction to always do the doors from the front cab of the last set in a train. So on a 12-car chances are you wouldn't see the guard, and probably not on an 8-car either. It was my experience that they'd be present a lot more on the 4-cars during the day.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 20 Sep 2019
  14. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    The ex LO 172 used to have the cameras fitted so probably an easy refit job (and uncover the monitor)
     
  15. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Interesting. That might explain why you'd only see them on the fast section of any given run if you did at all - i.e. after Leighton on a fast or after Watford on a semifast (and not at all on anything that stopped at Harrow).
     
  16. OxtedSignaller

    OxtedSignaller Member

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    Why were the 172s cameras removed anyway in the first place? It doesn't make sense...
     
  17. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    They didn't work very well having been a retrofit and they weren't required so were just a maintenance liability.
     
  18. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    I agree, if the DFT want increased DCO, and specify as such in franchise proposals why authorise the removal of body side cameras?
     
    Last edited: 20 Sep 2019
  19. bionic

    bionic Member

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    In April 2018 the RMT stated that WMT had committed to a safety critical guard on every train for the remainder of the franchise...

    https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members...-and-introduction-of-doo-west-midlands040419/



     
  20. Undiscovered

    Undiscovered Member

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    As I recall, it's required by the rule book for the guard to travel in the leading cab of the last set, if there's no connecting gangways, in case the units should separate in transit. There should be at least one competent member of staff in each unit.

    Anyhow, sometimes even on a three car set, it can be tricky to walk through. Passengers want information and there may be issues to resolve.

    I'm not perfect, but I at least try to walk through a train and be visible, especially on late evening trains, where i feel my role is more passenger safety, rather than revenue. I try to be friendly and nip issues in the bud, though i have said ' I'm using my cross voice now to tell you...' once recently.
     
  21. Undiscovered

    Undiscovered Member

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    From another post:

    4. Presently, the new traction WMT has ordered will be wired for conventional operation but at present does not have door panels on the design stage.


    Isn't thst the crux of the issue. These units are ordered and paid for, to a set specification, laid out above...

    You want to change that specification? Hmmm. *sucks air through teeth*
     
  22. bionic

    bionic Member

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    RMT stated that ASLEF won't discuss DOO until RMT have an agreement, so whats the point in building DOO only trains if the drivers haven't agreed to work them either? 319s were DOO only on Thameslink, but had to have modifications made to put guards panels in when they went to Northern and WMT. Conversely, 700s have been fitted with guards panels from the off even though they only operate on DOO routes.
     
  23. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    319s have never been straight DOO units. The Northern ones had panels installed in the saloon but it's always been possible to guard work them from the cabs. South Central used to guard work them to Rugby.
     
  24. Undiscovered

    Undiscovered Member

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    Who paid for those mods? WMT? Northern? The ROSCO? Who fitted them and is responsible for them if there's any errors and maintenance?
    Do they need to be removed before returning from lease, in order to revert stock to the condition it was leased, ala Scot rail and their ffcctv?

    Who pays for the design changes to the new WMT stock? Was it ordered and commissioned by WMT, or LM?
     
  25. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    The bottom line how the railways are run is not the unions' decision - they don't run the railways. Obviously a company ordering trains without guards panels does risk a dispute, but that's their decision, no one else's.

    Greater Anglia ordered their FLIRTs without guards panels and they're operating in DCO mode.
     
  26. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    GA ordered their FLIRTs with both guards panels and DOO equipment and they're currently being operated by the guards owing to the camera system being withdrawn from use, actually.
     
  27. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    But when the TOC gets the inevitable dispute, that the TOC has deliberately provoked (or been ordered by DfT to deliberately provoke), it turns into "the RMT are holding us to ransom".
     
  28. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    that explains why there have been a number of "managers" ( several in WMT livery) "training" on the Marston Vale line in recent days/weeks.
     
  29. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    Which is currently true, given 2 years ago the RMT were open to agreements that didn’t insist guards had sole control of train dispatch & begun negotiations on that basis with a few TOCs, before quietly moving the goalposts halfway through
     
    Last edited: 20 Sep 2019
  30. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    That's a TOC policy and not all TOCs operate it, as I understand it (in particular there is not "at least one competent member of staff in each unit" of a 12-car 319 formation - there are only two members of staff and there are three units). But in any case, Class 350s do have through gangways.
     
  31. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I believe the DfT now requires all new mainline units (I doubt it applies to the Merseyrail sets for example) to be ordered for all three common forms of operation (DOO, guarded, driver release guard close) for maximum flexibility of redeployment.
     

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