RMT in dispute with SWR regarding ‘guardian angels’

[the sniper]

Are agency security staff able to join the RMT, and if so, how many actually have done?

Yes. No idea, but I don't imagine many. Their employers normal do everything they can to dissuade it, or at least don't recognise the Union.

So there's no room for community spirit or kindness. Everything has a price. Who wants that world?

With mass unemployment coming, it's good to know that money isn't everything. Particularly when it comes to work, where unpaid employment within a commercial organisation is something people believe a Union should obviously be supporting...

 

[Monty]

Not really sure what to make of some of the comments made here, people must be loosing their god damned minds after weeks of being forced to stay at home and watch box sets on NowTV. I'd like to kindly point out that the union and it's members had agreed to at least pause the guards dispute since this whole COVID crisis started a few months ago. So nobody has any right to suggest that we have not been doing our bit because I can tell you we've been doing it since the lockdown started keeping things moving for those who really need to use the railway.

Now as for this dispute, the decision to strike has not been made in fact i've not even seen the ballot paper yet to who knows what the options are so lets hold off the lynch mob until the membership makes it's choice because you know that how it works in a democracy? Now as for the use of unpaid volunteer staff is well within it's right to raise it's objections, it does set a precedent to erode terms and conditions of the paid staff. While these volunteers may not actually have a direct effect, who's to say that next year or the year after the DfT or TOC come up with another reason to bring in volunteers to cover for paid staff? Once the genie is out of the bottle you cannot put it back and that is why the union is making such a fuss over it. That said they may not get their way, the whole SWR membership is being balloted and it may well be the members decide not to take action.

Considering some of the comments on this forum about the calibre of agency staff in the past I really love to know what you expect from someone who is going to be stood outside stations or on platforms for free....

 

[PG]

This.

Once the genie is out of the bottle you cannot put it back and that is why the union is making such a fuss over it. That said they may not get their way, the whole SWR membership is being balloted and it may well be the members decide not to take action.

Regardless of the rights/wrongs of volunteers, if the union didn't register any objections then the precedent would be set. I'm not sure what the required percentage would be in favour of industrial action in a ballot but I'm doubtful that the membership would vote for actual strike action.

I'd be hopeful that some kind of compromise can be reached before the ballot is issued.

 

[PupCuff]

Considering some of the comments on this forum about the calibre of agency staff in the past I really love to know what you expect from someone who is going to be stood outside stations or on platforms for free....

That isn't a failing of the agency staff or the volunteers though, that's a failing of their recruitment, training and management - which (in this context) is typically done by paid staff. I know what I expect, regardless of a worker's employment arrangements, and that is that they meet an acceptable standard of competence. But as an industry, we're letting experience, ability and attitude slip away at a management level and there's only so much of that which you can do before the cracks start to show in the front line too.

 

[TUC]

It doesn't seem to bother the RMT what the public and media think given past performances.
Sending a letter threatening a ballot on strike action clearly means they have no intention of sorting out the matter amicably as they have immediately jumped any number of steps available to them to discuss the matter with management.

All the more reason to press on and do it anyway.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do we know the exact duties being carried out by these volunteers? Or are things like live information and ticketing just being added for drama?

No we don't. Volunteering Matters, the organisation managing this plan, say this:

Over the coming months volunteers are going to play a visible role in keeping others safe on the transport network. These Journey Makers will be offering guidance, providing friendly advice, reminding passengers about social distancing measures, preventing overcrowding and helping vulnerable passengers on their journeys.

Maybe they're making it sound more interesting than it is. "You'll be standing in the rain getting told to **** off" isn't quite so appealing.

But based on that information, it sounds remarkably similar to many duties a CSA would do.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Can anybody who is closer to SWR advise on how many "CSA" staff (or posts) SWR have and thus might be be deemed 'at risk' of being let go and replaced by volunteers?

By virtue of where I live I have not used SWR much in recent years but my overall impression is one of very few staff standing in the rain being abused by passengers for offering helpful advice and assistance (or actually very few 'outside' staff at the great majority of stations at all).

 

[weastebusdepot]

Maybe they're making it sound more interesting than it is. "You'll be standing in the rain getting told to **** off" isn't quite so appealing.

But based on that information, it sounds remarkably similar to many duties a CSA would do.

I suspect it will be even less appealing when the pubs are allowed to reopen and they have to deal with a load of drunks on a Friday or Saturday evening.

The number of different roles and organisations working on stations is already complicated enough, and to the average passenger anyone wearing some kind of uniform works for "the railway" and thus should know the answer to every question or gets a load of abuse if they pass them on to someone else. I've lost count of the number of times I've had deal with customers who were given completely the wrong information because "the people in the station told me to come here" when that could be anyone from the duty manager to the cleaner.

 

[43066]

Although 1) might have some merit, in some circumstances, I will just talk about 2). It is clear to me that if there is a requirement for people to direct passengers at stations that role should be performed by paid staff. Such work is completely different to, say, volunteeers who maintain the flower beds at Hindley who (i) do not direct passengers and (ii) perform a role which has not been specified as a requirement, it is just a 'nice to have' {whether it should be a requirement is another discussion altogether}.

When you then move to people volunteering in Charity shops and the like that is different again. Such people are giving their time to raise funds for a cause they agree with, not undertaking a role which has been specified as necessary by a commercial body or government department.

Going back to the railways, people volunteering their time to man an historical information stand about the local railway (as I have seen at places such as Carlisle) are very different to those charged with providing information about live railway running, ticketing etc at the same station. The former is not something I would expect a TOC to be responsible for, the latter should very much be a TOC responsibilty, and be performed by paid staff.

Agree with this.

The continuing casualisation of the railway workforce is something the RMT rightly oppose, and I suspect is their true objection to this scheme. It might be better if they were more honest about this - sometimes they can come across as using safety as an excuse.

The safety argument had some merit in relation to DOO disputes, but rather less in this case, where the volunteers will not be undertaking safety critical tasks (at least as far as we know).

I quite agree with you that volunteering should be restricted to charitable/altruistic type roles only. As soon as corporate organisations start to take on “volunteers” the potential for exploitation is enormous. Let’s face it there are plenty of companies taking advantage of the current situation to shaft their workers - just look at BA for example.

It doesn't seem to bother the RMT what the public and media think given past performances.
Sending a letter threatening a ballot on strike action clearly means they have no intention of sorting out the matter amicably as they have immediately jumped any number of steps available to them to discuss the matter with management.

You are aware there has just been a bitter long running industrial dispute with SWR? The RMT probably suspect there is no amicable solution to be found.

The purpose of a trade union is to look out for its members, not to appease the general public. It’s clear that some posters on this thread don’t approve of trade unions. Perhaps that’s because they don’t understand them, or because they secretly wish they had such protection in their own employment.

 

[43066]

Maybe they're making it sound more interesting than it is. "You'll be standing in the rain getting told to **** off" isn't quite so appealing.

But based on that information, it sounds remarkably similar to many duties a CSA would do.

Quite. You have to wonder why on Earth anyone would volunteer for this. I suppose some people get their kicks out of bossing others around.

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite. You have to wonder why on Earth anyone would volunteer for this. I suppose some people get their kicks out of bossing others around.

If I wasn’t already in the industry, I’d happily volunteer for it. I have no desire to ‘boss people around’, however I do have a great desire to help people.

 

[43066]

Quite. You have to wonder why on Earth anyone would volunteer for this. I suppose some people get their kicks out of bossing others around.

Fair enough, that’s a laudable enough aim. But there are many other ways of volunteering which would probably be more useful - someone mentioned the Samaritans, St John’s ambulance etc. above.

Becoming a “Guardian Angel” (could the title be any more patronising?!) seems more akin to volunteering to do crowd control for Sports Direct!

Why does the railway suddenly need to recruit volunteers, at a time when passenger numbers are down, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future?
The cynic in me suspects the pandemic is simply being used as an excuse to draft volunteers in to do the work that should really be done by paid staff.

 

[theironroad]

Fair enough, that’s a laudable enough aim. But there are many other ways of volunteering which would probably be more useful - someone mentioned the Samaritans, St John’s ambulance etc. above.

Becoming a “Guardian Angel” (could the title be any more patronising?!) seems more akin to volunteering to do crowd control for Sports Direct!

Why does the railway suddenly need to recruit volunteers, at a time when passenger numbers are down, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

The cynic in me suspects the pandemic is simply being used as an excuse to draft volunteers in to do the work that should really be done by paid staff.

It's the RMT seemingly using 'guardian angel' for some reason. The dft and tocs and volunteering matters term them 'journey makers'.

 

[weastebusdepot]

It's the RMT seemingly using 'guardian angel' for some reason. The dft and tocs and volunteering matters term them 'journey makers'.

Journey makers who ironically aren't actually making journeys (except to get there) and don't have a lot to do with other people's journeys.

One reason younger people might want to do it is that the experience would look good on a CV, and they might think it could be a stepping stone to a full time career on the railway. Whether that would occur in practice is doubtful but not impossible.

 

[43066]

It's the RMT seemingly using 'guardian angel' for some reason. The dft and tocs and volunteering matters term them 'journey makers'.

Ah, missed that, apologies.

That title is equally patronising, and doesn’t even really make grammatical sense! “Journey maker” - good grief. Are they going to be making journeys themselves?

Wouldn’t “journey planner” make more sense?!

 

[PG]

Wouldn’t “journey planner” make more sense?!

Going by what it seems like the role involves perhaps "Queue organiser" or "Crowd marshal" would be more accurate; even more accurate prefixed by "unpaid"...

 

[PupCuff]

One reason younger people might want to do it is that the experience would look good on a CV, and they might think it could be a stepping stone to a full time career on the railway.

Indeed - customer service experience is highly valued and it would be a great opportunity for those with less experience but the right attitude to make a positive impact on customers' journeys, the industry, and their career development.

 

[theironroad]

Ah, missed that, apologies.

That title is equally patronising, and doesn’t even really make grammatical sense! “Journey maker” - good grief. Are they going to be making journeys themselves?

Wouldn’t “journey planner” make more sense?!

Hi, I'm Brad, your " Adventure Experience Executive", how may I make a journey for you today?

 

[theironroad]

Going by what it seems like the role involves perhaps "Queue organiser" or "Crowd marshal" would be more accurate; even more accurate prefixed by "unpaid"...

Not sure if the plethora of pink tabard staff at Waterloo the last couple of days are volunteers or agency staff but a pre requisite for many seem to be stand in the way of any door or exit or entrance and when you try to use, they approach to within 2 metres to point to the bleedingly obvious.

If I had volunteered for that, I'd last one shift if I was lucky.

But no doubt grant shapps is feeling pleased with himself....

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why does the railway suddenly need to recruit volunteers, at a time when passenger numbers are down, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future?

Indeed. The railway is carrying so much fresh air around at the minute that each and every journey taken is subsidised to the tune of £100.

One reason younger people might want to do it is that the experience would look good on a CV, and they might think it could be a stepping stone to a full time career on the railway. Whether that would occur in practice is doubtful but not impossible.

I don't judge anyone who'd want to do the volunteering, but anyone who goes into it thinking it's a stepping stone into the industry is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.

I see it in my industry , factory law firms paying peanuts to graduates- or even using the dreaded "unpaid internship"- and dangling the carrot of a training contract under their noses. Strangely, the training contracts never quite get offered...

 

[43066]

Indeed - customer service experience is highly valued and it would be a great opportunity for those with less experience but the right attitude to make a positive impact on customers' journeys, the industry, and their career development.

I see it in my industry , factory law firms paying peanuts to graduates- or even using the dreaded "unpaid internship"- and dangling the carrot of a training contract under their noses. Strangely, the training contracts never quite get offered...

The issue with this kind of thing, of course, is that working for free to engineer your CV is only possible for those in the fortunate position of not needing to earn a salary.

If people want to volunteer, there are many, many good causes out there. I’d suggest that doing a TOC’s dirty work for nothing, and quite possibly doing some poor schmo on a zero hours contract out of a day’s pay, is not the most socially useful way to spend one’s free time.

EDIT: it sounds like the scheme has potentially been put on hold. What a surprise! It’s just yet another half baked, badly thought out idea from the current government.

UK rail bosses rejected call to dress staff like face-mask volunteers

Request came after Grant Shapps’ ‘army of journey makers’ in purple tabards failed to materialise

www.theguardian.com

After the RMT union said it would ballot for a strike over the scheme, which it said was launched without consultation and would undercut safety-critical rail jobs, the charity tasked with staffing Shapps’s purple army, Volunteering Matters, decided to hold back until the row was resolved.


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Paul Reddish, the chief executive of Volunteering Matters, said there were still discussions ongoing with the Department for Transport, but there had been issues about where the 3,000 volunteers they were recruiting could be deployed around stations. He said: “They cannot substitute for paid roles, and we are not going where there are no rail staff. We’re ready to go, if indeed it gets to that stage, and the volunteers can have a good experience. But we’re not at that stage yet.”

 

[jumble]

[QUOTE="

As an aside, the increasing use of Classroom Assistants as teachers, and volunteers as Classroom Assistants, is causing a lot of problems in schools. It's driving down wages and putting people out of work.


[/QUOTE]

Did you know that Schools budgets have been slashed ?
One of the schools that I do work for has had £200,000 taken off the budget and it has to be taken from somewhere.
There is no money tree to pay the TAs who are being put out of work

 

[43066]

[QUOTE="
Did you know that Schools budgets have been slashed ?
One of the schools that I do work for has had £200,000 taken off the budget and it has to be taken from somewhere.
There is no money tree to pay the TAs who are being put out of work

Yet apparently there *is* a magic money tree to pay millions of people to sit idle on furlough, while the DfT drafts in “volunteers” to perform tasks on the railway which could be undertaken by paid workers.

Pull the other one, Shapps!

 

[the sniper]

Did you know that Schools budgets have been slashed ?
One of the schools that I do work for has had £200,000 taken off the budget and it has to be taken from somewhere.
There is no money tree to pay the TAs who are being put out of work

Presumably the teaching unions support this work being done by volunteers for free instead, because, 'that's the spirit'...?

 

[Monty]

It's all being put on hold anyway, the company and union are due to talk about it so it at least shows the RMT are willing to discuss the issue. Had an email from them stating while they were officially in dispute with SWR a ballot would only be taken as a last resort.

An article by the Guardian suggests they (the DFT) don't have the numbers and were going to ask the TOCs to dress their own staff in the volunteer tabards to save face.

UK rail bosses rejected call to dress staff like face-mask volunteers

Request came after Grant Shapps’ ‘army of journey makers’ in purple tabards failed to materialise

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bald Rick]

From my experience, many station staff are TSSA members. What have they had to say on the subject?

 

[Bikeman78]

It will just force people into buses instead.

All five of them! Going on strike now is bonkers. It will hardly affect anyone and just save the government some money.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did you know that Schools budgets have been slashed ?

I did, although bizarrely enough the CEO of the academy trust I am referring to did not need to worry herself with any financial pain like a pay cut for her and her cronies. That's for the little people, not for people who've never done a day's teaching in their lives but did used to be a senior manager at the DfE.

Meanwhile, Boris is planning to spend almost a million quid on repainting Air Farce One into a fetching red, which manages to make it look like a giant Saveloy with an "Austin Powers-style Union Jack tailfin". Groovay.

Boris has also spent £108,000,000.00 on a tracing scheme and app that doesn't work, but was built by a close associate of Dominic Cummings.

But yeah, we're all in this together and all need to muck in, there's no magic money tree

There is plenty of money in the UK. As I've said before, I think (and it is just my opinion) the attitude is "why pay if someone will work for free". You see it in so many sectors. Why are schools budgets cut when the budgets for academy senior management wages is not? Or when £108m can be found for an NHS app and tracing scheme that doesn't work, why are student nurses expected to work for free?

EDIT: it sounds like the scheme has potentially been put on hold. What a surprise! It’s just yet another half baked, badly thought out idea from the current government.

Sensible. Not least because there are so few people travelling it'd be cheaper to not run trains and put the passengers in taxis.

(ETA I originally said the app cost £108m and I was wrong, the app that doesn't work only cost £11m)

 

[Bikeman78]

If the RMT wanted to campaign for something useful in this area, it would be to take the poorly-trained contract "rentathugs" in house and stop the use of contract security for what are essentially customer service and management roles.

I would expect these volunteers to provide far better quality of service than any such security guard ever did.

If those on the Rhymney line are typical then I completely agree.

 

[Darandio]

Crikey!

Some very harsh and uninformed comments through the six pages (so far), most not even related to the subject heading.

Would you like to enlighten us as to why they are uninformed? There does seem to have been a lot of nonsense in the thread, some actual facts would be great!