RMT on the possible 2 year pay freeze

[142blue]

Been on the railway nearly 20 years, have no appetite to fight for pay rises right now, it is not the time.

However a reduction in hours, coupled with improved travel facilities or perhaps some extra leave.

That would be more than enough right now

 

[Bald Rick]

However a reduction in hours, coupled with improved travel facilities or perhaps some extra leave.

I admire your optimism. A reduction in hours or increase in leave is effectively a pay rise in hourly terms. That’s not going to happen.

The very best that can be hoped for is a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies for a year or two. To be honest I can’t even see that.

 

[LowLevel]

I admire your optimism. A reduction in hours or increase in leave is effectively a pay rise in hourly terms. That’s not going to happen.

The very best that can be hoped for is a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies for a year or two. To be honest I can’t even see that.

We've had the DfT sign that off as an offer recently, albeit only for one grade and in slightly unusual circumstances.

 

[dctraindriver]

We've had the DfT sign that off as an offer recently, albeit only for one grade and in slightly unusual circumstances.

Which part? Reduction in hours or promise or non compulsory redundancies?

 

[LowLevel]

Which part? Reduction in hours or promise or non compulsory redundancies?

37 to 35 hours. It is part of a package and I don't know if it will be accepted but it does show that if there is perceived to be some benefit for both sides things are possible.

 

[Philip]

I admire your optimism. A reduction in hours or increase in leave is effectively a pay rise in hourly terms. That’s not going to happen.

The very best that can be hoped for is a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies for a year or two. To be honest I can’t even see that.

I would say redeployment of staff into slightly different roles which cater more for the demand is more likely than compulsory redundancies.

Also cutting back on Sundays and offering rest day working, although the latter has apparently been blocked by the unions.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would say redeployment of staff into slightly different roles which cater more for the demand is more likely than compulsory redundancies.

What roles would they be?

 

[Philip]

What roles would they be?

Ticket offices for example - offices only open during the busiest times and then staff assisting with passengers and TVM matters on the platform when not in the office.

Increased focus on revenue protection for guards too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ticket offices for example - offices only open during the busiest times and then staff assisting with passengers and TVM matters on the platform when not in the office.

Increased focus on revenue protection for guards too.

Ah right, I thought you meant redeploying people into newly created jobs. Because there won’t be any of those!

 

[142blue]

I admire your optimism. A reduction in hours or increase in leave is effectively a pay rise in hourly terms. That’s not going to happen.

The very best that can be hoped for is a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies for a year or two. To be honest I can’t even see that.

It is but it could be worked out. Still don't expect anything right now

 

[Ted633]

Just to put this into perspective, I work in aviation (engineering dept.), another industry that's been battered by COVID. At the end of last summer, to avoid compulsory redunctancy, we agreed to: take a 5% pay cut for the next 2 years; give up the 4% rise due the April; a layoff clause being put in our contract and to take a 10% (3 days for me) permanent cut to our annual leave allowance (to be reduced over the next 2 years). In 2022, when this agreement ends, we then go onto 'market rates', whatever that will be!
Some 20% of the workforce also took voluntary redundancy (statuary only, no enhancement)
A non-agreement to this would of resulted in a fire & rehire policy on far poorer T&C's if you were lucky enough to keep your job. We didn't really have a choice, as a strike was pretty pointless given the state of the industry.

If the railways are 'only' having a 2 year pay freeze, they are doing very well indeed.

 

[HLE]

Any strike by any grade would play directly into Mr Wilkinson's hands (if he's still there?). Just getting through the next few years without being made redundant should be most people's focus. It's those in training or waiting to start that will be the first targets of any headcount (&cost) reduction.

 

[Bald Rick]

Any strike by any grade would play directly into Mr Wilkinson's hands (if he's still there?). Just getting through the next few years without being made redundant should be most people's focus. It's those in training or waiting to start that will be the first targets of any headcount (&cost) reduction.

He is very much still there. In my view, any headcount reduction will start with a recruitment freeze, followed by voluntary redundancies. However some TOCs are very short of productive drivers (for a full service) so even then I think a recruitment freeze may be short lived.

But I agree, any mandate for action would be suicidal.

 

[21C101]

If there is a strike, will anyone actually notice? SWR are running something very similar to the strike Timetable on Waterloo to Exeter.

The sort of politicians, civil servants and media moguls who fondly recall the Serpell Plan would notice thuogh.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

He is very much still there. In my view, any headcount reduction will start with a recruitment freeze, followed by voluntary redundancies. However some TOCs are very short of productive drivers (for a full service) so even then I think a recruitment freeze may be short lived.

But I agree, any mandate for action would be suicidal.

Recruitment freeze is already happening at Network Rail at least. I do get the impression the railway higher ups really do not want to make any compulsory redundancies and are doing everything they can to avoid that outcome.

This is why I haven't joined a union as at the minute I'm just grateful to have a job I love, I couldn't care less about a pay rise or any other extra benefits.

 

[nedchester]

If there is a strike, will anyone actually notice? SWR are running something very similar to the strike Timetable on Waterloo to Exeter.

The sort of politicians, civil servants and media moguls who fondly recall the Serpell Plan would notice thuogh.

Pre-Covid the Government was proposing legislation to introduce a minimum service level even during a strike. Probably not that far off what we’ve got now.

 

[Chester1]

With effective nationalisation, might it be time for standardised pay grades and contracts for all rail staff? That would save money by cutting pay of outliers but would give a pay increase for some. Base pay + completed first two years + level of service e.g. local, regional, inter city + a London allowance. Calculated to mean that collectively the wage bill stays the same in cash terms but is devalued by inflation. Excellent time to enforce 7 day contracts nationally too.

 

[Philip]

With effective nationalisation, might it be time for standardised pay grades and contracts for all rail staff? That would save money by cutting pay of outliers but would give a pay increase for some. Base pay + completed first two years + level of service e.g. local, regional, inter city + a London allowance. Calculated to mean that collectively the wage bill stays the same in cash terms but is devalued by inflation. Excellent time to enforce 7 day contracts nationally too.

Why enforce contracts, how is that going to help? And what do you mean by 'outliers'?

 

[Class 170101]

The RMT can’t ballot for national strike action. They can ballot for action with each employer, and they could co-ordinate it such that it looked like a national action, but each individual ballot would stand on its own. For example, if you added up all the votes from all the separate ballots and there was a majority for a strike, but some TOCs voted no, then the latter TOCs would not go on strike.

Unless they took the signalling grade out.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why enforce contracts, how is that going to help? And what do you mean by 'outliers'?

I think @Chester1 meant implement 7 day contracts where they are not already in place. Or in other words, put in place 7 day contracts for those TOCs that have Sundays outside the working week and roster, and thus rely on volunteers for a Sunday service. (There’s only a few left).

Unless they took the signalling grade out.

Yes of course, I was just thinking of the TOCs.

 

[ABB125]

With effective nationalisation, might it be time for standardised pay grades and contracts for all rail staff? That would save money by cutting pay of outliers but would give a pay increase for some. Base pay + completed first two years + level of service e.g. local, regional, inter city + a London allowance. Calculated to mean that collectively the wage bill stays the same in cash terms but is devalued by inflation. Excellent time to enforce 7 day contracts nationally too.

I suppose now would be an ideal time for harmonisation (or at least getting a bit closer to it!), as there will undoubtedly be negotiations going on.

 

[Chester1]

Why enforce contracts, how is that going to help? And what do you mean by 'outliers'?

I mean people who get paid more than the average person doing their job because of local divergence over the years. The objective would be to have a fair open and standardised pay system that can be justified to passengers and the treasury as reasonable value for money. Most public sector organisations have standardised pay grades. Now that the most of the rail system is now state owned or on EMAs it should have the same accountability. Some staff would get paid more, others less.

I think @Chester1 meant implement 7 day contracts where they are not already in place. Or in other words, put in place 7 day contracts for those TOCs that have Sundays outside the working week and roster, and thus rely on volunteers for a Sunday service. (There’s only a few left).

Yes, exactly what am I suggesting, give the staff a choice, sign up to a 7 day contract or take redundancy. With the amount of public money being spent on propping up the system, its absurd that Sundays are not part of the normal working week at all TOCs. I don't want to see railway careers turn into something mirroring airlines but railway staff need to realise they are expendable now and that their pay and working conditions can't be completely out of sync with the average person.

I suppose now would be an ideal time for harmonisation (or at least getting a bit closer to it!), as there will undoubtedly be negotiations going on.

Yes. I don't see what the unions bargaining power would be. A skeleton strike day service and rail replacement buses would more than suffice for much of this year.

 

[PG]

I suppose now would be an ideal time for harmonisation (or at least getting a bit closer to it!), as there will undoubtedly be negotiations going on.

Genuine question(s):

• Prior to privatisation i.e. BR, were all railway employees on the same salary and T&Cs?
• If so then did changes occur as TOCs sought to poach staff from other TOCs?

 

[HSTEd]

Is the reliance on overtime to run the railway common across all grades or only in the cab?

Because getting rid of that would allow substantial reductions in the staff bill, avoid cutting any jobs and remove a frankly cancerous practice from the industry.

 

[PupCuff]

Yes, exactly what am I suggesting, give the staff a choice, sign up to a 7 day contract or take redundancy. With the amount of public money being spent on propping up the system, its absurd that Sundays are not part of the normal working week at all TOCs. I don't want to see railway careers turn into something mirroring airlines but railway staff need to realise they are expendable now and that their pay and working conditions can't be completely out of sync with the average person.

That's quite a simplistic way of looking at it and a fairly irresponsible way of running a business. A disproportionate number of Drivers at many (but not all) locations are older (and generally wealthy enough with a good pension) which may well lead to a situation at a given depot where a good chunk of the workforce elect for redundancy and take early retirement. When it can take a year for a new driver to fully join the team, what do we do to run the trains in the meantime while half the old workforce is sunning themselves on a beach in Crete and the ones to replace them are still taking their psychometrics? What happens if all the Driver Instructors decide to take redundancy, who will train the newbies? If we try and cover it with management, only a small number of those (generally Driver Team Managers) will be qualified drivers and those that are are unlikely to be receptive to conducting driving duties on a daily basis, and someone will then have to come in and cover the work the managers should be doing, which again is an extra cost.

I'm not necessarily against the idea of having Sundays inside as standard but that sort of approach doesn't work when the staff have a skill you need, will take a long time to replace and doing so will cost you a large amount, and often are financially in the position to retire anyway.

 

[dctraindriver]

Is the reliance on overtime to run the railway common across all grades or only in the cab?

Because getting rid of that would allow substantial reductions in the staff bill, avoid cutting any jobs and remove a frankly cancerous practice from the industry.

Areas of the railway rely on the goodwill of staff to cover. It’s been a problem for a long time. The unions push for more staff numbers to reduce the issue of working those workers beyond an acceptable level.

However many occupations run on overtime. For example those extra cops politicians say are working to protect the public are actually the same number of officers running about on enforced overtime.

Probably not much will change in regards to overtime in the future especially if trainees are delayed by the recruitment process due to CV19 plus many employees nearing retirement age. Seems a perpetual circle that will continue to spin long after I’ve retired.

 

[Trogladyte]

Any strike by any grade would play directly into Mr Wilkinson's hands (if he's still there?). Just getting through the next few years without being made redundant should be most people's focus. It's those in training or waiting to start that will be the first targets of any headcount (&cost) reduction.

complete cadswallop. If you get rid of trainees now you’ll have no one for the work tomorrow. Highly doubt the bean counters will be looking to cut their noses off to spite their face in the future.

 

[Bald Rick]

Genuine question(s):

• Prior to privatisation i.e. BR, were all railway employees on the same salary and T&Cs?
• If so then did changes occur as TOCs sought to poach staff from other TOCs?

Yes by job type, broadly. For example all drivers were on the same Ts and Cs (broadly), although I suspect there were differences in rostering arrangements. All signallers were on the same Ts and Cs - and still are!

Is the reliance on overtime to run the railway common across all grades or only in the cab?
Because getting rid of that would allow substantial reductions in the staff bill, avoid cutting any jobs and remove a frankly cancerous practice from the industry.

Certain types of role - traincrew, signallers, maintenance (less so, these days) and a few others. But it’s not just in the rail industry - the NHS relies on it in normal times, as do the police, and many other public service industries.

When it can take a year for a new driver to fully join the team, what do we do to run the trains in the meantime while half the old workforce is sunning themselves on a beach in Crete and the ones to replace them are still taking their psychometrics? What happens if all the Driver Instructors decide to take redundancy, who will train the newbies?

Applying for Voluntary redundancy doesn’t guarantee you can leave. It would be managements responsibility to make sure there are enough people left to keep the job going.

 

[RT4038]

Applying for Voluntary redundancy doesn’t guarantee you can leave. It would be managements responsibility to make sure there are enough people left to keep the job going.

If the exercise was to reduce the number of staff this would be quite true, but in the particular circumstance that the poster was referring to (sign up to a 7 day contract or take redundancy). management would not have any control on the numbers leaving.

The most obvious (but slower) way to achieve this would be to put all new starters on the revised terms and conditions and gradually move over. This is what was often done in the bus industry after Deregulation. You may possibly be able to induce a number of the existing staff to transfer to the new conditions as well, and eventually go the redundancy route when the number of remaining staff gets very small (if it is worth it by then!)

 

[LAX54]

There is no end in sight for COVID and the way the Country works, so no rise in 2021, will mean the same in 2022, as they will argue nothing has changed !