RMT statement discussion.

[CyrusWuff]

Also Crossrail is a concession, as are Arriva Rail London and Merseyrail, rather than a (formerly) franchised operator, thus pay and conditions are a matter for TfL rather than the DfT. (Leaving aside for a moment that TfL is also currently dependent on the DfT.)

 

[nedchester]

The TOCs are effectively public sector having received billions over the past two years.

Other public sector workers have received below inflation pay rises so they cannot expect any better. Someone at this point will say “it’s not a race to the bottom”. It isn’t but the unions need to be pragmatic with their expectations.

I’ve said it before but I think the RMT are likely to be heading for a trap set by the Government.

 

[PJSADI]

That is presumably part of a multi-year, pre-agreed deal? Much like how TfL had to honour their one.

This deal was not part of a multi-year deal, the previous one finished last year.

 

[py_megapixel]

I fully understand that unions want better pay and conditions for their workers. That's the whole point.

But a lot of people are put off train travel because they perceive it to be unreliable. An enormous round of strikes now, just as passengers are coming back post-Covid, will do nothing to improve that reputation - reducing passenger numbers, and in turn giving the DfT more reasons to make cuts.

I think the RMT really need to tread carefully (something they don't historically seem to have been very good at) - it obviously will not help matters for anyone if they undermine the case for the railway's existence by making it unsustainably expensive to run (which it already is in the eyes of some, I know) or by preventing it from reliably and effectively serving its core purpose of providing transport

 

[ComUtoR]

I agree with this. If RMT actually joined in the conversations and put ideas forward instead of refusing anything that comes from evil management then things could actually progress and get better for everyone

Don't forget to also say " Tory Government"

The TOCs are effectively public sector having received billions over the past two years.

Don't forget to mention 'taxpayers'

Other public sector workers have received below inflation pay rises so they cannot expect any better.

Oh yes, remember the Nurses, Teachers and Civil Servants. Can't have anyone getting paid more than them.

Someone at this point will say “it’s not a race to the bottom”. It isn’t but the unions need to be pragmatic with their expectations.

'Someone' also needs to post about 'what if this was your industry'. Or about 'non Unionised workforces'. Maybe even 'Workers rights etc'

I’ve said it before but I think the RMT are likely to be heading for a trap set by the Government.

Yep,. That evil Tory Government are laying a trap so that they can destroy the Unions once and for all and that 'Remember the Miners' should be a cautious warning because the "Government' are 'up for a fight'

 

[JonathanH]

The TOCs are effectively public sector having received billions over the past two years.

I imagine there would still be a pay increase demand if the TOCs were objectively making a loss.

It appears the support may be too generous because it is allowing the TOCs to continue to make (small) profits although I'm not sure where money would come from to meet pay demands if the railway companies were actually making a loss.

 

[alangla]

It is noticeable that Transport for Wales, London Overground, Scotrail and Caledonian Sleeper are not included in the TOCs listed by the RMT.

The sabre rattling at ScotRail started on day 1 of public ownership:

"Our members deserved medals during the height of pandemic and we don't think it is unreasonable for our members to receive a fair pay increase and certainly we will not be accepting our members coming under the public pay policy because we believe this is a direct attack on our collective bargaining agreement." It would be up to members to decide whether to withdraw services again if that did not happen, he said.

ScotRail goes back into public ownership

An arms-length Scottish government company takes over running the rail franchise from Abellio.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ungreat]

Ah...the usual anti union rant.
Wondered when it would start......

 

[Fokx]

Other public sector workers have received below inflation pay rises

Exactly, so why should train crew receive something (even if it is minimal) rather than three years of nothing?

Every little helps

 

[nedchester]

The sabre rattling at ScotRail started on day 1 of public ownership:

ScotRail goes back into public ownership

An arms-length Scottish government company takes over running the rail franchise from Abellio.

www.bbc.co.uk

The RMT don’t get it do they? They wanted public ownership and this is a case of “careful what you wish for”.

As for deserving medals? Really, at the height of the pandemic the trains were empty which made the job easier but NHS staff really were pulling out all the stops.

 

[Lewlew]

Ah...the usual anti union rant.
Wondered when it would start......

It's not an anti union rant. It's an anti RMT rant.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

The railway is supposed to be a family not an us and them game.

It’s not a family.

It’s an industry like any other with a large number of employees, some of whom are passionate, some indifferent and some downright hateful of the business.

 

[4F89]

It’s not a family.

It’s an industry like any other with a large number of employees, some of whom are passionate, some indifferent and some downright hateful of the business.

And like all families, the old ones are losing their marbles and everyone hates the kids....

 

[ExRes]

How comforting it is that the pro/anti Union repetitive thread can never die

 

[TUC]

It's not an anti union rant. It's an anti RMT rant.

Alhough there's no inherent reason why unions shouldn't experience passengers ranting against them.

 

[Techniquest]

And why should I not?

Seeing as this inevitably turns into a RMT bashing thread. It's clear the money is there. The railway is supposed to be a family not an us and them game.

While I can't comment on whether the money is there or not, I've got to say that I'm in support of action. I'm also fully in agreement with what you say there at the end, it's the same problem in my own industry.

Whether or not the general view on the forum is that the RMT are nuts (for want of a better word), if the RMT members feel strongly enough about it to vote yes, then so be it. The voice of the railway employees must be heard and acknowledged! OK, so any action may not get the result they want, but the voices need to speak up. It is, at the end of it all it is as the saying goes 'you can't fix something you don't know is broken'.

Finally, it's comforting to know the RMT and ASLEF are an active and present force. Not all unions are like that, for example when I was a member of GMB years ago it wasn't really all that useful. If there was a problem, it wasn't felt like GMB would do anything about it. Paying out for it every month was a waste of valuable resources! Now RMT and ASLEF, if they were looking after my industry, I'd be happy to pay the membership fee every month!

I haven't been here long, but Railforumers really seem to hate unions that are just trying to get their workers livable conditions and fair pay?

Welcome to the forum Please don't tar us all with the same brush, a lot of the forum seem to be of that opinion but certainly by no means all of us! As you can see in my reply to someone else, I'm certainly in favour of RMT's proposed action if it means their members get what they deserve

Good gravy I want to get on with making a board raising my concerns and go join the RMT members, it would give me a good reason to use my loud voice!

 

[Asheiou]

Please don't tar us all with the same brush, a lot of the forum seem to be of that opinion but certainly by no means all of us! As you can see in my reply to someone else, I'm certainly in favour of RMT's proposed action if it means their members get what they deserve

Yep, sorry! I understand the frustration people here must have to hear their once a week parliamentary train they travelled hours to ride got cancelled because of industrial action (which I assume fuels some of the dislike some members of this forum have of unions) but it's more important that the people who run the railway get what they need to do well. They're highly trained professionals that are to this day overworked and underpaid for having to have done half a university degree's worth of non-transferable training! I hope the TOCs and RMT resolve their disagreements before it comes to a strike, but if one or more end up happening, I fully support them in that.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I’ve no objection to unions wanting to get members better pay and conditions (and as a former union rep and current union member you would expect me to say that) but timing is all.

The railway is struggling financially, any new pay deals for franchises have to be authorised by the DfT and there is real uncertainty about the future direction for rail, given other demands and expectations on the public purse

Every Government acts opportunistically. Give them an excuse and they will be off and running. When I joined it was the fear that a road union dominated Government would shaft BR if we pushed it too far. Give this struggling Government an excuse to divert attention (and save money) and it will be taken.

You have to pick your fights and pick your moment. This really isn’t it.

 

[DanNCL]

I think it would be useful to know which workers are being balloted for strike action over pay. If it’s low paid workers such as cleaners, catering staff etc I’d understand as these jobs are often not much more than minimum wage, people need to afford to live.

On the other hand drivers and guards, whilst I recognise they have an awful lot of responsibility which is rightly acknowledged by a higher salary, considering many are already paid £50k+ per year, I can’t help thinking they should be grateful for what they’ve got. They’re already paid a considerable amount more than the majority of the population, they’re not going to die without a pay rise for one year. I know what I’ve said there sounds harsh, but the reality of the situation we all face with this morally and economically corrupt government is harsh. I would be saying the same about anyone earning £50k+ per year regardless what their profession was.

On the issue of condition changes however, if the conditions being offered by the TOCs are unreasonable then strike action sadly could be needed. Note the word reasonable - wanting a 2p payment for every barcode scanned is not reasonable; they didn’t get 2p for every paper ticket stamped or hole punched so why should barcodes be any different.

 

[HullRailMan]

These unions really don’t have a clue. Look at the wider picture and see the situation most other workers are in.
The government can effectively say that any rail staff pay rose is paid by taxpayers via subsidy. That puts tail staff verses nurses, teachers etc in the eyes of the public, and it’s easy to see who would get the sympathy in that case.
The RMT are presumably looking for a win after they were shown to be powerless in the P&O situation. Undermining customer confidence in the rail industry, putting rail jobs at long term risk, is obviously a price worth paying.

I think it would be useful to know which workers are being balloted for strike action over pay. If it’s low paid workers such as cleaners, catering staff etc I’d understand as these jobs are often not much more than minimum wage, people need to afford to live.

On the other hand drivers and guards, whilst I recognise they have an awful lot of responsibility which is rightly acknowledged by a higher salary, considering many are already paid £50k+ per year, I can’t help thinking they should be grateful for what they’ve got. They’re already paid a considerable amount more than the majority of the population, they’re not going to die without a pay rise for one year. I know what I’ve said there sounds harsh, but the reality of the situation we all face with this morally and economically corrupt government is harsh. I would be saying the same about anyone earning £50k+ per year regardless what their profession was.

On the issue of condition changes however, if the conditions being offered by the TOCs are unreasonable then strike action sadly could be needed. Note the word reasonable - wanting a 2p payment for every barcode scanned is not reasonable; they didn’t get 2p for every paper ticket stamped or hole punched so why should barcodes be any different.

Exactly this. Rail staff are exceptionally well paid without having to pay for uni degrees like teachers, nurses etc who then get a lower starting rate.
It’s laughable that a number of train crew seem to think they are hard done by at the same time as they deliver woefully inconsistent levels of service.

 

[SuperNova]

As a union member and railway worker - I have absolutely zero faith in the RMT leadership. I don't have a clue what they are playing at, and ultimately they will do their own members out of a job. What I've witnessed over the last few months has been ridiculous. Lies, bullying and a clear lack of perception. I suspect we will see a Summer of discontent and they'll turn people away from rail.

 

[Andyh82]

I haven't been here long, but Railforumers really seem to hate unions that are just trying to get their workers livable conditions and fair pay?

Probably because most of us here know that the RMT won’t get what they are demanding but they will damage the industry long term. You only have to look at TPE. Leisure passengers haven’t been able to travel on Sundays for months on end.

With passenger numbers down and threats of cuts surely it’s not a good idea to be striking to make passenger numbers fall further?

 

[seagull]

Exactly this. Rail staff are exceptionally well paid without having to pay for uni degrees like teachers, nurses etc who then get a lower starting rate.
It’s laughable that a number of train crew seem to think they are hard done by at the same time as they deliver woefully inconsistent levels of service.

I don't even know where to start to respond to this insultingly ludicrous and ignorant post, so I won't bother.

 

[Fokx]

They’re already paid a considerable amount more than the majority of the population, they’re not going to die without a pay rise for one year.

You could say the same for other jobs such as MP’s for example, yet they got one

Ps. It’s three years now, not one.

Exactly this. Rail staff are exceptionally well paid without having to pay for uni degrees like teachers, nurses etc

That’s quite inaccurate.

Many people within the rail industry have degrees that they’ve paid for to get them where they are, particularly those in the management positions. I’d even argue that I wouldn’t be in my role today if it wasn’t for the degree I’m still paying off which in turn led to my previous roles which in turn translated to a good candidate for the position

 

[dakta]

Can't see this being popular with the travelling public. Last time I travelled by train it was like service bingo whether it was going to run or not*, and from what I read on here it's becoming a norm

* I appreciate the reasons behind this are not the railways fault, but enthusiasts aside people will be thinking better pay for what exactly

 

[Bald Rick]

ASLEF are busy getting their members rises so I don't see why the RMT can't ask for the same.

RMT members got the same at MTR.

 

[DanNCL]

You could say the same for other jobs such as MP’s for example, yet they got one

That maybe wasn’t the best example to pick, as I’ve thought MPs should have had their pay frozen every year for pretty much as long as I’ve been alive!

 

[43066]

Really, at the height of the pandemic the trains were empty which made the job easier

Why do you presume to speak for the entire industry? Your job might well have got easier, mine was largely the same.

whilst I recognise they have an awful lot of responsibility which is rightly acknowledged by a higher salary, considering many are already paid £50k+ per year, I can’t help thinking they should be grateful for what they’ve got.

These statements are somewhat contradictory, though. As you rightly acknowledge the above average salary (which people on this website seem strangely obsessed with) reflects the well above average responsibility, shifts, and everything else that comes with those jobs. The extra money isn’t the result of some benevolent act of generosity, it’s very much earned!

Following your argument to its logical conclusion, nobody who earns above average pay should ever be entitled to ask for a rise. That’s just not how it works. I guarantee once you’re earning £50k, if you know someone earning £60k for the same job, you won’t see it that way! People don’t benchmark their earnings against the national average salary, but against colleagues doing similar jobs elsewhere. Peoples’ lifestyles also tend to become more expensive as they earn more, so people with lots of responsibilities on higher salaries don’t necessarily feel any better off.

That said I’m not personally in favour of industrial action over pay rises this year and I would prefer staff on lower salaries to get a rise before I do.

That maybe wasn’t the best example to pick, as I’ve thought MPs should have had their pay frozen every year for pretty much as long as I’ve been alive!

Wholeheartedly agreed!

Rail staff are exceptionally well paid without having to pay for uni degrees like teachers, nurses etc who then get a lower starting rate.

I agree with @Fokx - a very strange comment indeed. Plenty of railstaff have degrees and have paid for them. Having a degree also isn’t an automatic entitlement to higher earnings; many are actually worth very little these days.

And like all families, the old ones are losing their marbles and everyone hates the drivers….

Fixed that for you

 

[Mintona]

I can’t see any rail staff getting a payrise this year, above what has already been agreed.

Staff for those TOCs who’ve had multi year pay deals throughout the pandemic haven’t done too badly.

 

[irish_rail]

I’ve no objection to unions wanting to get members better pay and conditions (and as a former union rep and current union member you would expect me to say that) but timing is all.

The railway is struggling financially, any new pay deals for franchises have to be authorised by the DfT and there is real uncertainty about the future direction for rail, given other demands and expectations on the public purse

Every Government acts opportunistically. Give them an excuse and they will be off and running. When I joined it was the fear that a road union dominated Government would shaft BR if we pushed it too far. Give this struggling Government an excuse to divert attention (and save money) and it will be taken.

You have to pick your fights and pick your moment. This really isn’t it.

I respect what you say Clarence Yard, but when I am driving a train out of London with over 700 people on board headed to the southwest, clearly taking in over 50k in revenue, is it really unreasonable of me to think now IS the time to get a payrise (after 2 years of nothing). The railways are surely making money on long distance routes, must we all suffer for the fact the commuter routes are dead in the water?.