There's definitely a deal and it will be going out to ballot.
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RMT Strike on SWR Train Service Information / Travel Advice (latest action suspended)
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Drivers Ts and Cs are to be updated to refer to DCO as opposed to DOO at present. Guards to remain safety critical, no train will run without a guard.
What does that mean in practice? Presumably drivers will be doing the doors on at least the new 70X units with in-cab monitors, which I believe are leaving the fleet in due course, and on whatever replaces the 455 suburban fleet.
Presumably this will mean zero practical change to operations on the Desiro fleet, which has no DCO cab equipment, and will remain the backbone of the SWR fleet for many, many years to come?
Good result all round - I imagine the RMT will be happy as guards are being kept as they are (minus doors on a small proportion of the fleet).
This result could easily have been achieved without months of disruption had it been handled more sensibly by the DfT.
I'd love to know why this couldn't be agreed months ago. What changed. Financial situation? I imagine we will never know. DfT wouldn't want to admit any dealing if they were implicated in this.
Yep.
No doubt the (long overdue) pay increase for drivers will be attacked as ASLEF selling the guards out - but that isn’t really true because the contracts were already DOO.
This change (if it’s approved) potentially makes that definition more restrictive so improves the guards’ position. Although the definition of “DCO” will have to be made watertight to include only a safety critical guard, not a Southern style OBS, or equivalent.
No doubt the (long overdue) pay increase for drivers will be attacked as ASLEF selling the guards out - but that isn’t really true because the contracts were already DOO.
This change (if it’s approved) potentially makes that definition more restrictive so improves the guards’ position. Although the definition of “DCO” will have to be made watertight to include only a safety critical guard, not a Southern style OBS, or equivalent.
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701s will be 47.6% of the fleet - that isn't small!
dctraindriver
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This will be voted for.
that's what I said.
swt_passenger
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Do you not mean it will be “put to a vote”?
I looked this up on a Google news search by typing in aslef South Western Railway. Nothing came up for the last 24 hours, save a Daily Mail news report on timetable changes for the tube on the TfL network. So not related to this.
If it wasn't for a certain virus, I'm sure there would have been over a page of Google mobile search news results.
If it wasn't for a certain virus, I'm sure there would have been over a page of Google mobile search news results.
Goldfish62
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Paul Clifton has tweeted a copy of the deal. It's for real.
I'm not disputing it's for real, just pointing out the lack of media coverage at this time compared to other times. I do appreciate why but just wanted to highlight it.
Fair point - I hadn’t appreciated quite how much of the fleet they would make up.
It will be put to a vote, and it will be duly voted for.
ASLEF don’t have a leg to stand on - as for moaning about SWR drivers accepting responsibility for dispatch? I’m afraid that ship well and truly sailed when the self same union agreed to DOO being in their Ts and Cs, in the dim and distant past, and no doubt for pennies.
Nobody who drives for SWR should have any complaint about that agreement coming home to roost, that would be rank hypocrisy - it’s what your union agreed to!
Look on the bright side. At least this is a better result than was achieved on the Southern, where exactly the same union, did exactly the same thing.
As an ASLEF member myself, sometimes I wonder exactly what kind of union it is that I belong to... Maybe it’s just yet another pointless, recurring, direct debit that I should cancel.
Deservedly so. They are WELL below where they should be, in terms of pay, and have been for years.
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Fair point - I hadn’t appreciated quite how much of the fleet they would make up.
It will be put to a vote, and it will be duly voted for.
ASLEF don’t have a leg to stand on - as for moaning about SWR drivers accepting responsibility for dispatch? I’m afraid that ship well and truly sailed when the self same union agreed to DOO being in their Ts and Cs, in the dim and distant past, and no doubt for pennies.
Nobody who drives for SWR should have any complaint about that agreement coming home to roost, that would be rank hypocrisy - it’s what your union agreed to!
Look on the bright side. At least this is a better result than was achieved on the Southern, where exactly the same union, did exactly the same thing.
As an ASLEF member myself, sometimes I wonder exactly what kind of union it is that I belong to... Maybe it’s just yet another pointless, recurring, direct debit that I should cancel.
Deservedly so. They are WELL below where they should be, in terms of pay, and have been for years.
But they are well below because they have a lot less responsibility, even Turbo drivers for GWR have to do driver release.
As it stands, outer drivers get a pay rise for nothing, but it does open the door to the prospect that all drivers could have 701s and desiros as base traction except for Salisbury and Yeovil junction.
701s are go anywhere units, 100mph, A/C, toilets, 2+2 seating.... and no one actually knows how much longer desiros will be around for. Certainly I’m hoping they’ll be around for another 15+ years at least, otherwise the job becomes very boring very quickly.
has it been discussed yet whether guards on 701s will retain dispatch competency in case of failure, similar to stadlers set up?
What is possibly un-defendable is the so called Recruitment & Retention Allowance that drivers are entitled to which is also going up. RRP payments are for industries that are hard to recruit into or where cost of living is very high. No one can say there is a shortage of applicants for train drivers with hundreds if not thousands of applications. The salary now also negates the need for any RRP payment
The Rention Payment makes up the salary to make it seem attractive for drivers to stay.
SWR have to pay in the region of £100,000 to train a driver to become productive. The only other way would be for the company to impose a bond that the training cost would be payable if you leave within X amount of years of employment.
theironroad
Established Member
The RRP is not for all drivers. Drivers at coastal/rural depots are getting zero RRP.
Only Waterloo and Wimbledon & Clapham are getting the higher RRP and places like Woking etc are getting half the Waterloo amount.
While I take your point about no shortage of applicants , Waterloo especially has been having a massive issue retaining staff who SWR have trained who are then basically going to other higher paying London TOCs and giving no or very little productive service to SWR.
This deal, not entirely popular among outer drivers will lead to a approx 5k difference in pay between a Waterloo driver and a Fratton driver for example.
theironroad
Established Member
I fully expect all desiro drivers will be expected to open doors after suitable risk assessments and advice have been updated and issued.
The technical work needed to energise the door controls on desiros amounts to connecting a few wires up under the driver's desk. They were delivered new with door controls on the desk but never used.
While desiro drivers could press a door close button, that can't be introduced as the cab is not set up for, and is not suitable to be modified ergonomically for a driver to check the pti and dispatch safely.
The pay deal does not limit variations of dco to 701s only.
Goldfish62
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't in-cab CCTV on new DOO/DCO required these days on the basis that it's considered safer than platform mirrors/CCTV? In this case I'd guess there's no room in the Desiro cab to fit it anyway.
Just a gentle reminder:
theironroad
Established Member
Just to answer , and mindful of not wanting to stray OT, yes that's my understanding. It would be highly unlikely that monitors could be installed in desiro cabs without pretty much rebuild of cabs, which is unlikely. I think it's unlikely that drivers will be CLOSING doors on swr desiros any time soon.
sorry Yorkie it was myself that started this current conversation, was there not a thread to discuss the actual dispute itself? I thought @bb21 had created a thread to discuss updates to the dispute.
The deal makes it quite clear that modifications to existing stock will take place where possible.
theironroad
Established Member
Tbh, I don't know whether you drive desiros or don't read my posts. I'm quite clear what the deal says and the reality in the 444/450 cab.
theironroad
Established Member
Note to moderators
As there is no need for strike travel advice at the moment and certainly no strikes for the foreseeable, it might be better to lock this thread as there is a parallel discussion going on the other thread and it's just confusing.
As there is no need for strike travel advice at the moment and certainly no strikes for the foreseeable, it might be better to lock this thread as there is a parallel discussion going on the other thread and it's just confusing.
Being discussed here;
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-on-swr-latest-action-suspended.198972/unread
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-on-swr-latest-action-suspended.198972/unread
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