RMT threaten strike action on.........Thameslink

[DynamicSpirit]

If it is as serious as is being claimed where it is a risk to safety then yes I am.

As far as I can telll from this thread and from the reports I've seen, the only people who are claiming it is a risk to safety appear to be people who are not qualified to assess whether there is a risk.

Things are very clearly not adding up. If it’s as most posters on here are claiming then the RMT wouldn’t be threatening strike action as they’d know there was no case. Very clearly, the situation must be different from what is publicly known.

Aren't things adding up? Factor in the issue of the RMT being lead by a bunch of idiots and militants who, as far as can be judged from recent history, seem to be always on the look-out for any excuse to threaten strike action, no matter how trivial the alleged issue, and it all starts to make perfect sense to me!

 

[Horizon22]

Things are very clearly not adding up. If it’s as most posters on here are claiming then the RMT wouldn’t be threatening strike action as they’d know there was no case. Very clearly, the situation must be different from what is publicly known.

You must be new round here! There is a long track record of nonsense RMT disputes.

 

[Robertj21a]

No you can’t, but that doesn’t always stop employers from doing so. That said it does seem likes there’s key information missing here.


If it is as serious as is being claimed where it is a risk to safety then yes I am.

Things are very clearly not adding up. If it’s as most posters on here are claiming then the RMT wouldn’t be threatening strike action as they’d know there was no case. Very clearly, the situation must be different from what is publicly known.

Ha ha ha ha.....

This is the RMT we are talking about, not any other Union, or any proper, professional, organisation.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's very rare I support industrial action on the rail network but if this is as serious as it's been made out to be then I would support it in this case. There should be strict measures in place to prevent legionella from being present on trains, and to get rid of it as soon as any is discovered. It sounds like from the article GTR haven't done this, although as usual in these cases we only have one side of the story, the truth could be different for all we know.

I agree. I don’t support strikes over DOO or that nonsense, but this could be a potentially dangerous hazard to customers

 

[mcmad]

Are you commenting from a point of recognised expertise ?

If that were a requirement, the forum would be practically empty.

 

[Robertj21a]

If that were a requirement, the forum would be practically empty.

Quite. It's just that many come on here and spout waffle as if it's factually correct - that always needs nipping in the bud before the more gullible repeat it as fact.

 

[the sniper]

Being in dispute is not really something to get too excited about. No doubt there'll be various factors in play, none of which will be in press releases or thrashed out (or frothed about) on here.

 

[Bikeman78]

The issue for the RMT seems to be when they were taken out of service. It's fairly obvious they wouldn't be tested whilst in service so traces of the disease were presumably found during testing whilst at the depot. Once found it seems the trains were put into service with the toilets locked out of use and then taken out of service and cleaned at a later time.

Unless I'm much mistaken, samples are taken and then sent off for testing. Inevitably the trains will be in service until the results come back. From what I've read, the toilets concerned were locked out of use until the trains got back to depot. Seems like a reasonable solution. Bearing in mind they probably ran around with the disease for days or weeks before the test was done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2021 ==

Interstingky even the RMY admit in their releases it is “potentially lethal” which doesn’t make it the strongest case if GTR goes “well potentially yes, but actually no because we took X,Y,Z mitigations”

Riding a bicycle is potentially lethal. I'd better stop doing that and drive instead. Oh, wait...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2021 ==

Anyone got access to the holiday rota at RMT HQ?

Just wondering if most of the top brass are on holiday this week and a certain headcase is in charge?

It's definitely gone downhill since the untimely demise of Bob Crow.

 

[Aictos]

It is entirely adequate. And certainly not worth threatening strike action about.

This is what does the RMT no favours. Threatening a strike over (literally) microscopic issue, without any recourse to talks, or even (apparently) understanding what has happened.

Again with the anti union posting, the RMT first informed it's members on the 6th August of three Class 700s had been infected with the disease and 3 members of staff were as a result off work on sick leave having contracted the disease.

So to state that it was a issue that's so minor it doesn't deserve any attention by the union especially as the health of three members have been put at risk.

The RMT then went forward to TL and insisted that the trains involved were taken out of service with immediate effect after the outbreak was confirmed by Siemens and instructed its members under their employers work safe
procedure and/or Section 44 of the Employment Rights Act, 1996, if you feel you are placing yourself in a position of serious and imminent danger to refuse to work on those units.

Then on the 20th August, the RMT advised that as a further Class 700 had been discovered on the 9th August to have been infected with the disease that they were now in dispute with TL and were requesting TL:

• Demand an urgent Joint Safety Committee meeting be arranged to discuss the legionella contamination, the company response and its responsibilities under procedure agreement 2 and the associated codes of practice and regulations.

• Demand full disclosure, including live updates of the unit numbers of any units found to contain Legionella.

• Distribute the report from our Health and Safety Department to our Health and Safety Reps.

Nowhere has the RMT said they are instructing members to strike over it and the requests made by the RMT above are quite reasonable.


With the Class 700s if anyone isn't familiar with them you cannot lock the standard toilets out of service as they can be easily reopened with a screwdriver or t key and plenty of passengers have them on them whereas if you lock the accessible toilet out of use you cannot force it open if it's been locked shut.

 

[DanNCL]

As far as I can telll from this thread and from the reports I've seen, the only people who are claiming it is a risk to safety appear to be people who are not qualified to assess whether there is a risk.

Quite. It's just that many come on here and spout waffle as if it's factually correct - that always needs nipping in the bud before the more gullible repeat it as fact.

With all due respect, if you only want to see what people you deem “suitably qualified” have to say then this is the wrong forum for you.

I would also like to point out that myself not working either for Siemens/Thameslink or in the Science industry doesn’t make my opinion any less valid, and certainly doesn’t need “nipping in the bud”. I’m as entitled to express my opinion as you are, and as I respect your opinion you need to respect mine too.

You must be new round here! There is a long track record of nonsense RMT disputes.

Ha ha ha ha.....

This is the RMT we are talking about, not any other Union, or any proper, professional, organisation.

They do get into some daft disputes, but not to the level that some posters here are trying to portray. There’s a difference between fighting over feared job cuts or pay/conditions being worsened and fighting over a supposedly harmless tank of water in a locked out toilet.

 

[Bikeman78]

One of the biggest potential contamination risks is actually in the home which all have some form of water storage and outlets for said water but rarely have any testing done (if any forum members routinely have their water systems at home tested please let us know). Think how many houses have a water storage tank in the roof space where on a sunny day the temperature will often be in the ideal range or don't heat the hot water to more than 50 degrees (which is after all too hot to wash your hands with).

I once had to clean out the cold tank in mum's loft as the pipe leading to the taps had got blocked. I'll spare you the details but it was grim. All the time I was thinking "I've been washing my hands and rinsing my toothbrush with this water." Never did me any harm though.

 

[alf]

It has been a success already for RMT in their terms.

Lots of Guardian & Morning Star column inches publicising the RMT.
And of course BBC ( the Guardian of Broadcasting)

 

[Goldfish62]

It has been a success already for RMT in their terms.

Lots of Guardian & Morning Star column inches publicising the RMT.
And of course BBC ( the Guardian of Broadcasting)

Success in terms of what, though? Putting off the public from using trains? Putting off anyone thinking of joining what appears to be a very unhappy industry?

 

[XAM2175]

I would also like to point out that myself not working either for Siemens/Thameslink or in the Science industry doesn’t make my opinion any less valid, and certainly doesn’t need “nipping in the bud”. I’m as entitled to express my opinion as you are, and as I respect your opinion you need to respect mine too.

It doesn't reduce your entitlement to hold an opinion, but it does reduce the value of your contribution compared to those made by people with relevant experience and/or qualifications.

As to factual inaccuracy - it certainly does need to be stopped. At every possible opportunity.

And of course BBC ( the Guardian of Broadcasting)

I didn't realise that the BBC were still that well-respected.

 

[DanNCL]

It doesn't reduce your entitlement to hold an opinion, but it does reduce the value of your contribution compared to those made by people with relevant experience and/or qualifications.

As to factual inaccuracy - it certainly does need to be stopped. At every possible opportunity.

If you don’t value my contribution then don’t engage with it, quite simple.

The refusal of many people to listen to what younger, “less experienced” people have to say on things because they’re “not qualified” is a big part of the reason both the rail network and the country as a whole isn’t moving forwards. We might not have the same number of years experience, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we don’t know what we’re talking about. Legionella spreads via aerosol particles, and aerosol particles can be spread through air conditioning. You don’t need a degree to know that.

 

[DNCharingX]

How exactly does this concern the union? Maybe if the drivers were using the loos or something?

On the contrary, this is something I'd be mad about as a passenger.

 

[Domh245]

Legionella spreads via aerosol particles, and aerosol particles can be spread through air conditioning. You don’t need a degree to know that.

But aerosolised legionalla can only exist where there's been moving water, and it can only spread through air conditioning (ventilation, strictly speak but AC is the common term) where it exists. In this case, unused toilets won't be producing aerosols that might contain legionella, and the aerosols would get extracted through a dedicated extract, rather than redistributed by an air conditioning system.

 

[DanNCL]

But aerosolised legionalla can only exist where there's been moving water, and it can only spread through air conditioning (ventilation, strictly speak but AC is the common term) where it exists. In this case, unused toilets won't be producing aerosols that might contain legionella, and the aerosols would get extracted through a dedicated extract, rather than redistributed by an air conditioning system.

Correct, but the legionella will already have been flushed into the toilet before being discovered and will have had an opportunity to move into the air conditioning/ventilation. Therefore it is essential that, after finishing in service that day, the unit is stopped for it to be cleaned, and the air conditioning is cleaned too.

 

[westv]

Does the RMT do anything else apart from declare strike action?!

 

[Bald Rick]

Correct, but the legionella will already have been flushed into the toilet before being discovered and will have had an opportunity to move into the air conditioning/ventilation. Therefore it is essential that, after finishing in service that day, the unit is stopped for it to be cleaned, and the air conditioning is cleaned too.

As explained upthread, there is no aircon inlet in the toilets, so it can’t have got into the aircon or ventilation.

An opinion is fine, not recognising that your own facts are wrong is not.

 

[XAM2175]

The refusal of many people to listen to what younger, “less experienced” people have to say on things because they’re “not qualified” is a big part of the reason both the rail network and the country as a whole isn’t moving forwards. We might not have the same number of years experience, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we don’t know what we’re talking about. Legionella spreads via aerosol particles, and aerosol particles can be spread through air conditioning. You don’t need a degree to know that.

You're really reaching for the comparison there

In this discussion, here and now, there is no refusal to listen. Many posters are responding directly to your points. I myself have told you that - in my mind - your opinion has a lower value than one presented by a person with relevant experience. Nothing in this statement precludes my considering your opinion, and neither is there anything in it that precludes me dismissing the opinion of older, "more experienced" posters, for any number of reasons.

Notice also that there's a difference between an opinion and a fact.

Correct, but the legionella will already have been flushed into the toilet before being discovered and will have had an opportunity to move into the air conditioning/ventilation. Therefore it is essential that, after finishing in service that day, the unit is stopped for it to be cleaned, and the air conditioning is cleaned too.

It's already been posted earlier in the thread that air in the toilet spaces is exhausted to the outside of the unit. A small quantity of aerosol might linger in the air that is allowed into the saloon when the door is opened, but this will be rapidly mixed with the much larger volume of air that is then further diluted when the external doors are opened.

You may be thinking of the risk of legionella transmission that is posed by the air-conditioning systems in large buildings. This is because larger centralised systems often use evaporative chillers, which are a Grade A just-right habitat for legionella. Air-condition systems on trains work in a different manner and cannot become legionella reservoirs in anywhere near the same way.

 

[DanNCL]

You may be thinking of the risk of legionella transmission that is posed by the air-conditioning systems in large buildings. This is because larger centralised systems often use evaporative chillers, which are a Grade A just-right habitat for legionella. Air-condition systems on trains work in a different manner and cannot become legionella reservoirs in anywhere near the same way.

This is indeed what I thought. Would have been better if someone had explained this earlier rather than assuming I was clueless or trying to stir up false information, and just saying that I'm wrong.

That said, I still am firmly of the opinion that until we know more, it can not be automatically assumed that there is no good reason for the RMT to be in dispute over this. We need to know more before resonably being able to come to that conclusion.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

These toilets are widely installed across all passenger trains so the legionella issue will have arisen well before this and you would have expected a Group Standard but there isn't one. However, RSSB recommended that RDG produce a guidance note which they did back in 2013

Guidance Note – Control of Risk Posed by the Presence of Legionella Bacteria in On-train Water Systems

In which it says the following should be undertaken if legionella is found above HSE threshold

Actions to be taken in the event of a positive test result
6.2.1 In the event of a positive test result showing levels of legionella bacteria
contamination in a water storage tank in excess of the upper action level defined
in HSE publication HSG274 Part 2 L8 ACoP (i.e. >1000 cfu/l) then the following
immediate actions should be taken:
i) The water storage tank in question to be completely drained.
ii) The water tank in question to be flushed until no sediment is present in the tank or at the outlet.
iii) The water tank in question to be subject to appropriate chemical dosing
(see appendix A).
iv) Re-testing should be undertaken within 3-7 days of the above to check the effectiveness of the actions taken. These actions should also be considered for contamination in excess of the lower action level (i.e. between 100 and 999 cfu/l) – see table in section 94.3.3).

Which sounds like what GTR have done? No mention of taking the taking train out of use although I guess you could say its implied that as soon as you have the results from a test that is what should happen. However, why haven't GTR and RDG gone on a comms offensive to explain to passengers what they are obliged to do to prevent legionella reaching this threshold and show they have engaged with RMT to address any risk to staff. This is doubly important as covid has heightened peoples awareness to airborne transmission and talk of aerosols will worry people.

Finally its clear Lynch is trying to find something to cause chaos so so industry needs to be working together to marginalise him as i don't believe members are up for a fight.

 

[Starmill]

A good reminder to all to close the toilet lid, where provided, before flushing!

 

[XAM2175]

This is indeed what I thought. Would have been better if someone had explained this earlier rather than assuming I was clueless or trying to stir up false information, and just saying that I'm wrong.

Yes, ideally, though I think in your earlier posts it wasn't clear that this was the reason you were pursuing your line of argument.

That said, I still am firmly of the opinion that until we know more, it can not be automatically assumed that there is no good reason for the RMT to be in dispute over this. We need to know more before resonably being able to come to that conclusion.

The RMT have a long history of being the union that cried wolf and this is doing them no favours at all, unfortunately.

Which sounds like what GTR have done? No mention of taking the taking train out of use although I guess you could say its implied that as soon as you have the results from a test that is what should happen.

If I understand correctly, GTR's response has been to lock the toilets out of use as soon as the test results have been received. Because the toilet is the only thing that draws from the affected water tanks, there is no need to withdraw the train from service until it's actually time for the tanks and water systems to be properly decontaminated.

 

[Aictos]

How exactly does this concern the union? Maybe if the drivers were using the loos or something?

On the contrary, this is something I'd be mad about as a passenger.

Umm because the RMT counts amongst it's members the train cleaners and fitters who have to work around or in the toilets every day.

As to TL, they're actually doing something positive which the RMT can't be blamed for but rather should be thanked for raising a health and safety issue as such because of the RMT concerns, TL are completely draining, bleaching and refilling any affected toilet but they're also been in touch with the ORR and will continue to engage with Health and Safety Union Reps eg RMT.

TL are also going to be testing ALL 115 Class 700s over the next 4 weeks with those that have had positive sampes being withdrawn at the first available opportunity to be treated, the entire fleet will be chlorinated regardless of readings that they have.

And people here think that the RMT is the bad guy here for daring to raise a issue affecting the health of their members but also the general public.

 

[Starmill]

I still am firmly of the opinion that until we know more, it can not be automatically assumed that there is no good reason for the RMT to be in dispute over this. We need to know more before resonably being able to come to that conclusion.

That's obviously your right to that opinion, but I personally think that the RMT should have already explained this by now if there were a good reason.

 

[py_megapixel]

A good reminder to all to close the toilet lid, where provided, before flushing!

WCs in some units actually have signage instructing people to do this, though I always thought it was something to do with the vacuum flush.

 

[DanNCL]

Yes, ideally, though I think in your earlier posts it wasn't clear that this was the reason you were pursuing your line of argument.

Yes I accept I should have worded it better in my earlier posts.

I personally think that the RMT should have already explained this by now if there were a good reason.

I agree.

 

[43066]

That said, I still am firmly of the opinion that until we know more, it can not be automatically assumed that there is no good reason for the RMT to be in dispute over this. We need to know more before resonably being able to come to that conclusion.

Sadly, as alluded to upthread, it’s impossible to have a sensible discussion about disputes of this nature on here. Nobody, including those “in the know” in relation to this dispute (I hasten to add I’m not one of them!), will ever post the full picture on a public Internet forum, so essentially all that’s being argued about is supposition and press releases.

Sadly these threads always go the same way. Many contributions come from members who have a pathological dislike of unions and evidently misunderstand their raison d’etre (they aren’t passenger focus groups!) and will always disagree with a union’s perceived position, as a matter of principle.

Endless repetition of “RMT = bad” does not make for a particularly interesting or illuminating discussion!