• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

RMT turns down Network Rail Pay Offer

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
759
The prospect of yet more disruption on the railway is getting tiresome to me, just a humble customer. Such customers may well turn to National Express and other coach companies, which as well as being much cheaper, can at least be counted on to run. In most industries, if industrial action damages that industry there are eventually redundancies.

But of course, RMT and ASLEF are exempt from the laws of gravity - or at least think they are.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

GardenRail

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2023
Messages
365
Location
Yorkshire
But of course, RMT and ASLEF are exempt from the laws of gravity - or at least think they are.
Please be reminded that the RMT and all Unions for that matter are it's members. Members are entitled to try and protect what they have fought for over many, many years.

We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it. Railway pay, including T&C's aren't given out of the goodness of employers hearts, and because they feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I guess you expect them to simply accept a below RPI (November) offer?
 
Last edited:

kw12

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
193
Please be reminded that the RMT and all Unions for that matter are it's members.

So will the RMT put the offer to its members, without any recommendation for or against, so that the members can decide for themselves whether they wish to accept or reject this offer? If not, why not?
 

GardenRail

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2023
Messages
365
Location
Yorkshire
So will the RMT put the offer to its members, without any recommendation for or against, so that the members can decide for themselves whether they wish to accept or reject this offer? If not, why not?
I guess higher up reps will get feelings of their membership on the shop floor, via area reps to get a sense of feeling, before making a decision.
 

fishwomp

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
567
Location
milton keynes
Please be reminded that the RMT and all Unions for that matter are it's members. Members are entitled to try and protect what they have fought for over many, many years.

We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it. Railway pay, including T&C's aren't given out of the goodness of employers hearts, and because they feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Unions aren't members - and members aren't unions. Unions have one job to do, an important job, and that's to represent your best interests. Members need to hold them accountable - and make sure they know who is in charge.

There are plenty of non-unionized industries that pay well. Supply and demand is what really runs things: low supply with high demand is the best union ever. The rise of driver pay over the last 20 years is everything to do with splitting of the employers so that the driver became the rare and movable commodity, enabling poaching by new freight operators in the first instance but more widely now, and very little to do with the union! After all, if it were down to the union and not the disassembly of the single-national employer, why weren't drivers paid so much relatively in the 1980s or early 90s when the union was even stronger!

Unfortunately for signallers, they didn't split the tracks into multiple companies each needing their own signalling staff. Your skill in signalling is expensive to train for, and expensive to keep. They're lucky you can't move to another railway company and take that skill with you so easily (eg. overseas rules are different).
 

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
759
Please be reminded that the RMT and all Unions for that matter are it's members. Members are entitled to try and protect what they have fought for over many, many years.

We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it. Railway pay, including T&C's aren't given out of the goodness of employers hearts, and because they feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I guess you expect them to simply accept a below RPI (November) offer?
No, you would not be on minimum wage. The employers need staff, and won't get them unless they offer an attractive wage. Let the market operate. Mrs Thatcher said, "you can't buck the market". She made a lot of serious mistakes, but a broken clock is right twice a day!
 

High Dyke

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2013
Messages
4,304
Location
Yellabelly Country
My TOC are quite happy to take the delay minutes as they'd rather I was concentrating fully on the task, rather than being distracted by the need to go. Does the same not apply to signallers? Signal stays on until the call of nature has been answered?
Sadly, Network Rail aren't so accommodating when it comes to a signaller delay. You soon find yourself filling out an incident report and looking at a development plan.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,754
Location
London
LOL



It depends on the task your doing, we’ve margins so tight for line blocks as an example you need to get them on as soon as the section is clear or they’ll be waiting longer than required.

Surely you just take your break as required, call goes unaswered temporarily, protection remains live/signals stay at danger and if you get asked about the delay say "sorry I had to have emergency use of the facilities and I had not gone in X hours". Delay goes to your signaller management group but if it happens a lot they'll look into it.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,894
Location
Wales
Surely the argument can always be made for any public sector organisation to skimp on pay because ‘there’s only so much money and we can better spend it on x, y and z’.
Why do you think that public services are falling apart?

How would you increase productivity in a signaller who can only signal the trains he has?
The only real way is via capital investment. Amalgamating smaller boxes and panels into ROCs, and closing or automating level crossings.
 

Omnishambles

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2019
Messages
109
Sadly, Network Rail aren't so accommodating when it comes to a signaller delay. You soon find yourself filling out an incident report and looking at a development plan.
Not sure today but there was one particular region that was rife for it…
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,647
Location
West Wiltshire
The longer this goes on, harder it will be to use a historic month for inflation (when they didn't accept / reject a rise) than use current rate (now 2.3%)

Eventually backdates get taken off table, and just merge the period into a single offer covering pay for 12 months
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
19,156
The longer this goes on, harder it will be to use a historic month for inflation (when they didn't accept / reject a rise) than use current rate (now 2.3%)
I'm not sure I understand your logic. The increase is effective in January 2024 and would be backdated. How does it become harder to use an historical month's increase? The increase is itself historical.

Eventually backdates get taken off table, and just merge the period into a single offer covering pay for 12 months
Are you suggesting a period of inflationary increases is missed out? That would make the industrial relations somewhat worse.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,544
Please be reminded that the RMT and all Unions for that matter are it's members. Members are entitled to try and protect what they have fought for over many, many years.

We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it. Railway pay, including T&C's aren't given out of the goodness of employers hearts, and because they feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I guess you expect them to simply accept a below RPI (November) offer?
Sorry, that's just wrong.
Nobody is going to be on minimum wage when there is significant competition between different operators to recruit/keep the better staff.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,590
Location
Yorkshire
We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it.
Not remotely true; do you have any evidence for this claim?

There are plenty of non-unionized industries that pay well. Supply and demand is what really runs things: low supply with high demand is the best union ever. The rise of driver pay over the last 20 years is everything to do with splitting of the employers so that the driver became the rare and movable commodity, enabling poaching by new freight operators in the first instance but more widely now, and very little to do with the union! After all, if it were down to the union and not the disassembly of the single-national employer, why weren't drivers paid so much relatively in the 1980s or early 90s when the union was even stronger!
Yes, I agree.
 

GardenRail

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2023
Messages
365
Location
Yorkshire
Sorry, that's just wrong.
Nobody is going to be on minimum wage when there is significant competition between different operators to recruit/keep the better staff.
I didn't say anyone is going to be on minimum wage did I. I said we would be on minimum wage IF they could get away with it. Nobody would willfully pay more than they HAD to.

As a general rule, when has a TOC ever got in touch with the Union first, before the pay anniversary and said, here, you all deserve a xx% rise. It doesn't generally happen. It's always down to the Union to ask for a pay rise.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,590
Location
Yorkshire
I didn't say anyone is going to be on minimum wage did I. I said we would be on minimum wage IF they could get away with it. Nobody would willfully pay more than they HAD to.
I don't really understand what you are tryting to say; your post said:

Please be reminded that the RMT and all Unions for that matter are it's members. Members are entitled to try and protect what they have fought for over many, many years.

We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it. Railway pay, including T&C's aren't given out of the goodness of employers hearts, and because they feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I guess you expect them to simply accept a below RPI (November) offer?
I took this to mean you were suggesting if it wasn't for unions, we'd all be on minimum wage.

Yes Unions can have an impact on the pay, but that certainly won't be the driving factor.

Wages are determined by supply, demand and factors such as length of time to provide training, cost of training, the value of experience, etc.

The best paid jobs I've done have not been in unionised roles; the least paid jobs I've done have been the most unionised (I am not suggesting that unions decrease pay; far from it, but to argue that if it wasn't for unions, everyone's pay would be low, doesn't quite cut it)
 

GardenRail

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2023
Messages
365
Location
Yorkshire
but to argue that if it wasn't for unions, everyone's pay would be low, doesn't quite cut it)
Then why don't companies get in there first, and offer a pay increase cutting out the union having to ask. In my 22 years, we have only ever got a pay increase because the Union asked. NR made an offer, in April, based on a claim from the Union, I believe. Otherwise, on 1st of January there would have been an offer.....? The fact there wasn't an offer sort of says, and definitely comes across as trying to get out of it.

Anyway, I'm sure in due course, we will find out what the affected staff think.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,590
Location
Yorkshire
Then why don't companies get in there first, and offer a pay increase cutting out the union having to ask.
If they were struggling to recruit/retail staff, then they'd have to do that.

In my 22 years, we have only ever got a pay increase because the Union asked.
Do you have any more information about that? Out of context it's difficult to really make sense of this claim but this is probably a sign that the pay was never below the market rate and the company didn't have issues retaining/recruiting staff; in any case you can't infer this to mean that no pay increases would ever occur if it wasn't for unions.

NR made an offer, in April, based on a claim from the Union, I believe. Otherwise, on 1st of January there would have been an offer.....? The fact there wasn't an offer sort of says, and definitely comes across as trying to get out of it.

Anyway, I'm sure in due course, we will find out what the affected staff think.
If you are underpaid for the job you do, and the union never asked for a payrise (or there was no union), then the company would have no option but to offer a pay rise as otherwise they'd not be able to fill & retain the job roles.

The idea that organisations can simply pay minimum wage and still attract and retain good staff isn't true; that can only be true in jobs where the training is basic, cheap and fast, and where there is a good supply of either young people looking for their first ever job, or perhaps older people winding down their careers, and in jobs where there are plenty of people who are prepared to go for those jobs. It doesn't apply in roles that require a lot of training, experience etc.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,894
Location
Wales
If you are underpaid for the job you do, and the union never asked for a payrise (or there was no union), then the company would have no option but to offer a pay rise as otherwise they'd not be able to fill & retain the job roles.
That applies to the private sector, where failing to maintain staffing levels means going bust. In the public sector however, the government has no such incentive and that has lead to combined classes of 60 kids being corralled by an unqualified "cover supervisor" in the school hall because schools can't recruit/retain teachers. Similar issues in healthcare, and we've seen plenty of chaos on rail as a result of driver shortages because the government isn't exposed to the same market forces that the private sector is.

Bringing it back onto the subject of Network Rail, it's important to remember the circumstances that lead to the Clapham accident. BR's failure to keep up with the market rate meant skilled staff were in short supply.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,590
Location
Yorkshire
That applies to the private sector, where failing to maintain staffing levels means going bust. In the public sector however, the government has no such incentive and that has lead to combined classes of 60 kids being corralled by an unqualified "cover supervisor" in the school hall because schools can't recruit/retain teachers. Similar issues in healthcare, and we've seen plenty of chaos on rail as a result of driver shortages because the government isn't exposed to the same market forces that the private sector is.
None of this negates what I said, nor does it demonstrate that staff would be on minimum pay without unions. Indeed school and healthcare staff typically are in unions or, if not, there are sufficient numbers that are, for the unions to become involved in pay talks.

I'm not sure if you're trying to compare pay, but I think most people would agree that - generally speaking - if you compare rail sector jobs to education sector jobs, the former are generally more likely to be 'better paid' than the latter, so any issues relating to retention and recruitment are more likely to be greater than in the rail sector.

If your argument is that there is a skills shortage, or that skilled people are choosing not to do jobs because the pay isn't good enough, then you may be right but it really warrants a thread of it's own, with caution taken to make comparisons between sectors as there are various factors at play that means you can't just make conclusions based on anecdotes.
Bringing it back onto the subject of Network Rail, it's important to remember the circumstances that lead to the Clapham accident. BR's failure to keep up with the market rate meant skilled staff were in short supply.
If you're trying to suggest that anything unsafe is happening, I would suggest you elaborate and raise the alarm with the appropriate bodies.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,894
Location
Wales
None of this negates what I said, nor does it demonstrate that staff would be on minimum pay without unions. Indeed school and healthcare staff typically are in unions. I'm not sure if you're trying to compare pay, but I think most people would agree that - generally speaking - if you compare rail sector jobs to education sector jobs, the former are generally more likely to be 'better paid' than the latter.
I'm not trying to compare pay. I'm using it as an illustration that while market forces prevent the private sector from underpaying skilled roles (train driver wages being the embodiment of that), no such market forces apply to the public sector. The government would happily pay rail staff as little as possible (in many cases through agencies and zero-hour contracts) because it doesn't care if there is a steady decline in service standards as a result - after all, in a few months they'll be able to sit on the opposition benches blaming the new government for the state of public services. The ability of the unions to organise the staff to bring the issue to a head now (rather than in five years time) is a strong bulwark against this.

If you're trying to suggest that anything unsafe is happening, I would suggest you elaborate and raise the alarm with the appropriate bodies.
Hidden 18 does provide a safeguard against fatigue. Therefore the staff shortages don't tend to have fatal consequences any more, but they are very disruptive. No traincrew, signalbox closures, waiting longer for someone to attend a points failure etc. This is part of the reason why the service is a shambles.
 

GardenRail

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2023
Messages
365
Location
Yorkshire
None of this negates what I said, nor does it demonstrate that staff would be on minimum pay without unions.
I don't believe I or anyone else said that we'd be on minimum wage without 'unions'.

I said, "We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it". They key part, GET AWAY WITH IT.

Nor am I suggesting that any company has proposed such a thing, mainly because they wouldn't get away with it.

A Union is just quite a big part of getting a pay rise in the railway industry.

But IF any company could get away with paying LESS, or indeed minimum wage, then I believe they would.

End of my opinion, we're going around in circles and potentially about to start arguing with ourselves in the bathroom mirror.

I I owned a company, I would want to pay as little as I could and make the most money.
 

Silverlinky

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
691
I don't believe I or anyone else said that we'd be on minimum wage without 'unions'.

I said, "We'd all be on minimum wage if employers could get away with it". They key part, GET AWAY WITH IT.

Nor am I suggesting that any company has proposed such a thing, mainly because they wouldn't get away with it.

A Union is just quite a big part of getting a pay rise in the railway industry.

But IF any company could get away with paying LESS, or indeed minimum wage, then I believe they would.

End of my opinion, we're going around in circles and potentially about to start arguing with ourselves in the bathroom mirror.

I I owned a company, I would want to pay as little as I could and make the most money.
If you owned a company and paid as little as you could you'd find your staff demoralised, underperforming and potentially leaving quite quickly....before you knew it you wouldn't be making much money at all!
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
2,894
Location
Wales
If you owned a company and paid as little as you could you'd find your staff demoralised, underperforming and potentially leaving quite quickly....before you knew it you wouldn't be making much money at all!
You've just described the current state of affairs in much of the DfT-controlled railway.
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,776
Interested to know this as well, it would seem strange that the RMT is looking to scrap a bonus scheme offered to their members!
Based on TOC punctualty results, no bouts of sickness, no industrial action, plus a few other conditions, its a national 'bonus', so if your local TOC was 100% on time, it would be an average of all the TOC's, so you'd be lowered in the result.
 

FenMan

Established Member
Joined
13 Oct 2011
Messages
1,403
I I owned a company, I would want to pay as little as I could and make the most money.

Probably for the best then that you're not in a position to start a company, as it wouldn't last long having that outlook!
 

DJP78

On Moderation
Joined
26 Nov 2019
Messages
160
Location
Bristol
Looks clear to me that we have gold standard T's & C's, largely due to a very strong set of railway unions.

Perhaps we wouldn't necessarily have the worst T's & C's without unions, doubt they be as good as they currently are without them though.
 

DJP78

On Moderation
Joined
26 Nov 2019
Messages
160
Location
Bristol
Unions increase wages collectively by around 20% according to official data. They also negotiate far stronger broader remuneration and better job security.
 

Top