Road spending vs Rail spending.

[lachlan]

We have a car club here. In fact until recently I was one of it's Directors, however the car, a full EV, has to be kept at the location where it's charger is, which is in the town, so any member living out of town still has the problem of getting in the collect it (See #85 above)

Cant they install a charger at their house? Besides, if you do live very rural, you are in the minority. Most people in the UK live in urban areas that can and should be served by public transport (including rail)

 

[A0wen]

How many people can afford to buy, fuel, and insure a car? If we had more safe cycling routes and less car-centric infrastructure, ditching the car would be an option for many. Cycle to Work also helps towards the cost of a bike.

Most people - there are 33m registered cars in the UK on a population of 70 million given about 17% of the population are under 14 therefore can't drive.

 

[Starmill]

The population of the UK is quite dense and is extremely heavily urbanised, so providing saturation public transport to a large fraction of the population would require serving only a small portion of the total land area.

Exactly. Roughly three quarters of us live in densely built up urban areas. Only a tiny proportion of the rest live in very scattered rural settlements of the kind where providing good local bus services is too difficult. In those cases it's obvious that cars will continue to have a place. But the reality is that as you say a very large majority of us live in dense urban areas, so we should probably focus on the solutions that will work there...

Most people - there are 33m registered cars in the UK on a population of 70 million given about 17% of the population are under 14 therefore can't drive.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to provide them with good quality public transport?

 

[RT4038]

How many people can afford to buy, fuel, and insure a car?

Many it would seem, judging by the number of vehicles on our roads.

 

[lachlan]

Most people - there are 33m registered cars in the UK on a population of 70 million given about 17% of the population are under 14 therefore can't drive.

Well that answers the question then - most people can afford a good bike.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cant they install a charger at their house? Besides, if you do live very rural, you are in the minority. Most people in the UK live in urban areas that can and should be served by public transport (including rail)

This. The private car is likely to remain the best choice for people living very rurally. Most people don't live very rurally, most people live in urban areas or subsidiary towns to them.

 

[Starmill]

Many it would seem, judging by the number of vehicles on our roads.

That's good then, so they could easily afford public transport instead, as it would be more efficient and thus cost less?

 

[A0wen]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to provide them with good quality public transport?

Given public transport is subsidised, that would mean tax increases, probably significant ones.

So who's tax bill do you propose to increase and by how much ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given public transport is subsidised, that would mean tax increases, probably significant ones.

So who's tax bill do you propose to increase and by how much ?

One good way to start, though it's a short term approach as people switch over, is to tax the private motoring of people who do so unnecessarily, such as yourself, by way of congestion charging and taxation on parking.

 

[Llanigraham]

Cant they install a charger at their house?

They might be able to, but have you seen the cost of doing so?
But would you be willing to fit an expensive charger just for the occasional use of the loan car?
And, as we know, not all feeds, especially to rural properties are adequate. We looked into this when we changed our car 3 years ago and even though we live in a small town the electric supplier stated that the supply to our road of 10 houses is only just adequate for those premises and if we wanted a full charging system it would potentially mean the whole roads supply would need upgrading.

Besides, if you do live very rural, you are in the minority. Most people in the UK live in urban areas that can and should be served by public transport (including rail)

How urbano-centric! That reads like "to hell with the minority".

 

[lachlan]

They might be able to, but have you seen the cost of doing so?
But would you be willing to fit an expensive charger just for the occasional use of the loan car?
And, as we know, not all feeds, especially to rural properties are adequate. We looked into this when we changed our car 3 years ago and even though we live in a small town the electric supplier stated that the supply to our road of 10 houses is only just adequate for those premises and if we wanted a full charging system it would potentially mean the whole roads supply would need upgrading.


How urbano-centric! That reads like "to hell with the minority".

understand the problems with installing a charger - that is something that needs to be solved though not sure how. It will have to happen eventually as petrol/diesel cars are phased out.

As for being urban centric, yes, the country is largely urban centric as most people live in towns and cities. This it isn’t too much of a concern if rural folks like yourself continue to drive. Just don’t expect to be able to go into a city centre easily (we have park and ride schemes for that).

 

[A0wen]

One good way to start, though it's a short term approach as people switch over, is to tax the private motoring of people who do so unnecessarily, such as yourself, by way of congestion charging and taxation on parking.

Nice - so as ever, somebody else can pay.

Fortunately I now work from home so am out the reach of avaricious local authorities and their parking and congestion charges.

If that changed, I'd change job taking a pay cut to retain WFH, costing the exchequer even more, particularly as I'm higher rate so already lose almost half of every incremental £ in salary to tax.

 

[lachlan]

Nice - so as ever, somebody else can pay.

Fortunately I now work from home so am out the reach of avaricious local authorities and their parking and congestion charges.

If that changed, I'd change job taking a pay cut to retain WFH, costing the exchequer even more, particularly as I'm higher rate so already lose almost half of every incremental £ in salary to tax.

Only seems right that those spewing pollution, causing traffic accidents and creating congestion for bus users pay up.

Working from home is a sustainable choice so that’s good to hear.

 

[RT4038]

That's good then, so they could easily afford public transport instead, as it would be more efficient and thus cost less?

At a considerable loss of convenience and freedom. The Netherlands and Germany, both often cited as exemplars of public transport, have very high car ownership and use levels. People want the convenience of their own vehicle, and most are not particularly concerned about saving money at the cost of the life change that goes with relying on public transport in all its guises.

 

[lachlan]

At a considerable loss of convenience and freedom. The Netherlands and Germany, both often cited as exemplars of public transport, have very high car ownership and use levels. People want the convenience of their own vehicle, and most are not particularly concerned about saving money at the cost of the life change that goes with relying on public transport in all its guises.

If more people used public transport, it would be a lot more convenient as it would be viable to run better/more frequent services. Meanwhile there would be less congestion on the roads so those who absolutely must drive will also have a more convenient journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If more people used public transport, it would be a lot more convenient as it would be viable to run better/more frequent services. Meanwhile there would be less congestion on the roads so those who absolutely must drive will also have a more convenient journey.

Exactly.

The car is not evil and will not and should not go away.

The key is that more suitable modes are used in areas where the car causes most harm, such as urban areas.

For instance, Lord Huffington-Smythe of Little-Piddle-on-the-Wold should park up at a station and take the train into Bristol (first class, obviously) and not drive all the way.

 

[RT4038]

Exactly.

The car is not evil and will not and should not go away.

The key is that more suitable modes are used in areas where the car causes most harm, such as urban areas.

For instance, Lord Huffington-Smythe of Little-Piddle-on-the-Wold should park up at a station and take the train into Bristol (first class, obviously) and not drive all the way.

And Fred Bloggs of Keir Hardie Estate should be told by transport companies and their staff when and where he should travel, and only go to Little-Piddle-on-the-Wold at their behest.

 

[lachlan]

Exactly.

The car is not evil and will not and should not go away.

The key is that more suitable modes are used in areas where the car causes most harm, such as urban areas.

For instance, Lord Huffington-Smythe of Little-Piddle-on-the-Wold should park up at a station and take the train into Bristol (first class, obviously) and not drive all the way.

Also relies on good development - so not building the largest swimming pool in the city (Hengrove Park) at the very southern edge while sites walkable from Temple Meads remain undeveloped or industrial (which really belongs out of town)

Cars are only convenient because we build for them at the expense of other modes. Even “MetroBus” (ha) can’t compete.

 

[judethegreat]

Regarding cycling and hills - every uphill has a downhill, atleast on the return journey. My regular (on average weekly) 4.2 mile journey includes a climb of 60 metres in about a mile. Yeah it's tedious, and the overall journey takes about 30 minutes instead of about 20 in the other direction, partly due also to the prevailling wind normally being against me that way, but flying down that hill in a couple of minutes on the return really does make it all worth it.

And possibly the most frequently i've cycled was when i lived in Edinburgh...

Re rain - if i'm able to strip off and dry out soon after, it's fine. If you're going to sit in the office all day, and there are no changing facilities, then maybe you've a point..

But if you're going to put an extra car on the road on a rainy day, that all just adds to it being even more unpleasant, and dangerous just when we need it not to be, for those still on two wheels. Maybe bus if you can? Or certainly be extra considerate to those not in a box. Thanks

And some people would have a fit if they saw me on some of my fully laden utility rides (and bus and train journeys).....

 

[RT4038]

Also relies on good development - so not building the largest swimming pool in the city (Hengrove Park) at the very southern edge while sites walkable from Temple Meads remain undeveloped or industrial (which really belongs out of town)

Cars are only convenient because we build for them at the expense of other modes. Even “MetroBus” (ha) can’t compete.

You are right, but unfortunately we've gone way, way past the point of no return.

 

[Meerkat]

This is the root of the attitude problem and is a right-wing view.

I am happy for more taxes on myself in return for proper quality public services. I am not the only one. Most voters for left-wing parties will think this way.

Its just what democracy leads to - the people realise they can vote for more goodies, and vote not to pay full price for them.
How many of those left wing voters are happy to pay more tax themselves - they normally seem to want more stuff and for other people to pay for it.

and e-bikes basically remove hills

For the cost of an e-bike you may as well buy a far more useful cheap car.

Bad weather or hills are silly straw men arguments deployed only by people who are either totally intransigent about any and all change, or who are desperate to keep hold of their car for ideological reasons and not for practical ones.

Winter weather in the UK is horrible - damp cold. And you get even wetter on a bike than walking, and whilst I have done it once you can't really use an umbrella whilst cycling.
Its madness to suggest people keep a car for ideological reasons - it is just far far more flexible, comfortable, and practical than public transport and active travel.

And before I am accused of being a car fanatic, I only have a little car, and I live in a little flat so that I can afford to live near enough to town such that I can walk to the town centre, station, and football. And I have a bike.

 

[judethegreat]

You are right, but unfortunately we've gone way, way past the point of no return.

We gone far, but i don't believe past the point of no return. Just maybe different thinking, rather a than a return to exactly how things were, is required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Fred Bloggs of Keir Hardie Estate should be told by transport companies and their staff when and where he should travel, and only go to Little-Piddle-on-the-Wold at their behest.

No, he can drive his car too, or perhaps a car club car if he doesn't need to own one, but shouldn't drive it into central Bristol as he should take the bus or cycle for that.

It's not about banning cars, it's about using them for things where they're necessary and not harmful.

We gone far, but i don't believe past the point of no return. Just maybe different thinking, rather a than a return to exactly how things were, is required.

There is no such thing as a point of no return; mitigation is always possible.

And before I am accused of being a car fanatic, I only have a little car, and I live in a little flat so that I can afford to live near enough to town such that I can walk to the town centre, station, and football. And I have a bike.

So what you're saying is that you can make sustainable travel choices but most others can't. What a bizarre argument!

 

[RT4038]

We gone far, but i don't believe past the point of no return. Just maybe different thinking, rather a than a return to exactly how things were, is required.

We've had 60 years of pro-car planning and designing, to the point of public transport just being an afterthought to be tucked in if lucky. How is this going to change? This is going to be very difficult to reverse.

No, he can drive his car too, or perhaps a car club car if he doesn't need to own one, but shouldn't drive it into central Bristol as he should take the bus or cycle for that.

Yes, but he'll probably plump for Outer Bristol Mall or Tech. Park in his car!

 

[Starmill]

Given public transport is subsidised, that would mean tax increases, probably significant ones.

So who's tax bill do you propose to increase and by how much ?

It would cost less per person to run an intensive service than the current ones, so less subsidy would be required not more. Obviously it would still be subsidised and there would be more subsidy in future as taxes and charges on those driving out of choice rather than necessity in urban areas increase.

 

[Broucek]

Bad weather or hills are silly straw men arguments deployed only by people who are either totally intransigent about any and all change, or who are desperate to keep hold of their car for ideological reasons and not for practical ones.

Aside from a handful of loonies (in the US) no one drives a car for ideological reasons!

People drive them because cars go door-to-door, offer protection against hot/cold/wet weather, make it easy to transport passengers and other stuff, can be driven in normal clothes and don't tire you out. Car transport also has low marginal cost assuming you own one already.

I travel on public transport more than I drive and I have a bike. But the bike is unsuitable for most of my travel needs.

I'm a little stunned by how uncomprehending people on here are about drivers!

 

[Starmill]

Its madness to suggest people keep a car for ideological reasons - it is just far far more flexible, comfortable, and practical than public transport and active travel.

This is absolutely false. Have you visited suburban Rotterdam? It's basically the same as any city in the UK and cycling is far more flexible, comfortable and practical than trying to use a private car.

But the bike is unsuitable for most of my travel needs.

A bicycle is unsuitable for nearly all travel needs of any kind in the UK because you need somewhere to ride it that's safe. Should be fairly obvious.

People drive them because cars go door-to-door, offer protection against hot/cold/wet weather, make it easy to transport passengers and other stuff, can be driven in normal clothes and don't tire you out. Car transport also has low marginal cost assuming you own one already.

They drive them because they're cheaper and easier to use in this country, but they're only cheaper because of tax policy, and only easier to use because the alternatives are all so poor.

 

[Broucek]

A bicycle is unsuitable for nearly all travel needs of any kind in the UK because you need somewhere to ride it that's safe. Should be fairly obvious.

Provision of cycle lanes would not materially change things for me

 

[Starmill]

I'm a little stunned by how uncomprehending people on here are about drivers!

Like what? Nobody is saying people can't drive are they.

Provision of cycle lanes would not materially change things for me

OK so you wouldn't cycle on them for personal reasons, but that's fine. Nobody is going to have a go at you over that. Other people want to cycle however so the cycleways should be provided, at public expense.

 

[muddythefish]

And my personal observation is that (industrial strife aside) the roads, at least round here, are falling apart far worse than the railways are. Potholes everywhere. The A5 between MK and Towcester is worse than I've ever known it, some stretches are barely good for 20mph.

Perhaps the real answer here is that *all* public spending is too low because of the Tory obsession with low taxes at all costs. Taxes need to increase substantially so we can fund acceptable public services

Repairing the roads and keeping them in good order is more important than expanding the existing

Public spending is too low yes, but taxes avoidance and evasion needs to be clamped down on, not tax rises