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ROC strategy and build progress

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Murph

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From what I have seen, none of the ROCs will be able to take over each other.

Not really knowing Ryde, I can't say for definite. The 12 are: Gillingham, Three Bridges, York, Manchester, Rugby (not the SCC!), Cardiff, Didcot, Romford, Basingstoke, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Derby

The article certainly says to me that ultimately ROCs will be able to take over some or all of the job from each other:

What about disaster recover, will the network grind to a halt if a ROC is not operational?

Well, the whole idea of creating the ROC’s, and the whole idea of the technology that we are developing to support their operation, is to do with how we can build business continuity. So, with the traffic management technology it will give us the ability to switch between one ROC and another should that be desired.

…

If the consoles and displays are all digital and dynamically assigned, operating over a data network; and the plant end of the signalling is a remote node on the network; it should be quite feasible to pass control between ROCs in the long term. Obviously any signalling plant local to the ROC (e.g. same building or physically adjacent/nearby) might go offline with the ROC. Also, you'd obviously also need sufficient slack in the combined ROCs in terms of staff and consoles for them to work at to cover the workload from the remaining online facilities.
 
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carriageline

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Yeah, they keep saying that. On the side of technology it's possible.

But ultimately, they must of forgotten to tell the contractors that as there is a severe lack of floor space! No plans I have seen suggest spare workstations, there simply won't be any room (so there's the lack of extra workstations on the ops floors) And then, there is the different types of workstations being used (MCS westcad etc) and each ROC has a combination. And then, will every workstation have infinite level crossing controls ready to plug in incase the workstation requires it? And how are all the controls on the workstations commissioned and correlated on each individual workstation as the standards demand? And then how do you deal with signallers having a certificate of competency for each W/S as required of them?

As you say, the technology is definitely there though. I just can't see it ever happening
 

LAX54

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The article certainly says to me that ultimately ROCs will be able to take over some or all of the job from each other:



If the consoles and displays are all digital and dynamically assigned, operating over a data network; and the plant end of the signalling is a remote node on the network; it should be quite feasible to pass control between ROCs in the long term. Obviously any signalling plant local to the ROC (e.g. same building or physically adjacent/nearby) might go offline with the ROC. Also, you'd obviously also need sufficient slack in the combined ROCs in terms of staff and consoles for them to work at to cover the workload from the remaining online facilities.

You would also need a 'bomb proof' data link, which I am not sure can be guaranteed in this Country at the moment, certainly not via BT! Then there is compentcy to work the equipment, not mention as to where the staff come from, or even where they will put the w/stns, as far as I know ROCs as designed now are a 'tight fit' for what they would work day to day !
 

Murph

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You would also need a 'bomb proof' data link, which I am not sure can be guaranteed in this Country at the moment, certainly not via BT!

It's called BT MegaStream Genus, has been available for decades. It can literally survive a bomb at anywhere other than the local ends (2 physical paths to 2 separate exchanges at each end). Not cheap. Other lower cost solutions are possible as well, while still giving high redundancy.

I'd guess that NR would probably be more likely to use fibres running along the tracks for most of it. On a national scale, there's a convenient loop formed by the ECML & WCML, so any single break in the loop can re-route the opposite way around (which at 200,000,000 m/s (yes, 2/3 the speed of light, as it's slower in glass), makes it generally irrelevant if your data goes the long way round, even allowing for repeaters). It would ideally also be engineered to use multiple fibre bundles along each main route, so a single break would just cause it to transfer to an alternate fibre on the same physical route.
 

21C101

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It's called BT MegaStream Genus, has been available for decades. It can literally survive a bomb at anywhere other than the local ends (2 physical paths to 2 separate exchanges at each end). Not cheap. Other lower cost solutions are possible as well, while still giving high redundancy.

I'd guess that NR would probably be more likely to use fibres running along the tracks for most of it. On a national scale, there's a convenient loop formed by the ECML & WCML, so any single break in the loop can re-route the opposite way around (which at 200,000,000 m/s (yes, 2/3 the speed of light, as it's slower in glass), makes it generally irrelevant if your data goes the long way round, even allowing for repeaters). It would ideally also be engineered to use multiple fibre bundles along each main route, so a single break would just cause it to transfer to an alternate fibre on the same physical route.

Its called Network Rail Fixed Telecom Network.

Would a backup ROC be to run the trains as normal or would it be to carry out an orderly rampdown/detraining in the event of a major problem?
 

carriageline

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I can't see backup ROCs happening. Infact I can categorically say that at least a handful of them won't have the ability to take over another.
 

cogload

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Switching from one ROC to another is not going to happen for an awfully long time. If ever.
 

Yabbadabba

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There are some quite complex decisions to be made in the future about how the ROCs will operate. As it stands ther are three different types of workstations going into the ROCs IECCs, MCS a and WestCad and only IECC has ARS as part of its software. A third party trial of ARS was supposed to trialled on the MCS at Rugby SCC not sure how far that progressed. The main problem is how much territory a signaller is able to look after even with automation as there is a need to be able to know what is happening in the area of control all the time. TMS has the potential to increase the area coverage, but as with the grand plan with the existing workstations they are finding out that they are maxing out the area of coverage way before their expectations based on signallers workload. Just look at the WestCad workstation "London Bridge Central" designed to one person operated but after they did the workload assessments had to be divided into two until such time as technology catches up and even then the signallers with the layout have struggled to move the required volume of trains.

Most workstations are designed at near workload capacity of the signaller whether they have ARS or not so being able to grab part of your colleagues area in times of perturbation as per IECC scalable would probably push that workstation beyond the limits of the controlling signaller. The other big issue regarding ROCs taking over each other areas will be problems of competency as all signallers as well as their rules and regulation need to know all the Special Box Intructions for their workstation, panel or lever frame. Be fully trained in DC & AC regs. As already said most workstations will be designed at near maximum capacity or the controlling signaller, so grabbing portions of your colleagues territory is looking at the moment a no no. So now we are in the land of having spare workstations in the ROCs that are capable of working anywhere else in the country no matter if it's IECC, MCS or WestCad not to mention that I doubt that all the TMS systems will be provided by different manufacturers. So now your going to need a cache of spare signallers who are well versed in any workstation and all and any local instructions have all the required competences to step in at a moments notice and say take over control of say Carlisle area from Manchester ROC say from Didcot. That one hell of a lot of spare capacity you are going to need in your staff being paid to unpreductive for most of the time. Not to mention the amount of competency required is going to be enormous. Our managers struggle to get all panel compentcy in our panel box now and though it's one of the bigger panel boxes will be nothing in comparison to even a single ROC. Just some of my views on the subject for what's it's worth.
 
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Olaf

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The UK has rain? How did NR miss that? :roll:

Not only can the ROCs survive extended power cuts (but that would have to generally be two seperate REC failures and the nearest SSP) but the main communications are via redundant multi-core fibre optics and the buildings have a degree of anti-terrorist hardening as well.

Do you have any figures for the frequency at which larger signal boxes have to be closed / evacuated due to unforseen events such as lightning, floods, pestilence, etc.?

It's worth remembering that if (say) Basford Hall box caught fire it would have almost exactly the same effect on the WCML as if Crewe SCC went down.

I don't disagree by and large with what you say, but there is more to resilience than just power supplies. NR has only comparatively recently got to grips with putting reliance into its signalling links.
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I'm not convinced that the shift to ROCs will do much for capacity. For the most part, they'll still be controlling the same kit on the ground for the time being. Cab signalling might bring about a small increase in capacity on long stretches of plain line, but - even with moving block - it'll still be heavily constrained by conflicting moves at junctions, trains with different speed profiles and so on. Under lineside signalling, four aspect, headways of three minutes - even less in a couple of lower-speed examples - can be readily achieved. How many routes come close to requiring this sort of plain line capacity at present? Most don't, partly because there aren't that many paths across a key junction, or because a stopping passenger or slow freight eats up a lot of capacity twice an hour.

Where it'll come into its own, I think, is with the rollout of TMS, which seems (from what little we've seen of it) to be a potentially excellent tool to aid decision making and the recovery from disruption. I understand that it's not necessarily to be limited to ROCs though - it can be implemented in existing signalling locations, albeit perhaps without the ability to do the signalling itself.

The incident with gas cylinders at Kings Cross and the evacuation of Three Bridges (the existing panel, not the ROC) seemed to cause their fair share of chaos. Taking out any single key point of the network is going to cause a lot of disruption across a much wider area, even if the eggs are well distributed across several baskets! On that basis, it seems to make sense to concentrate on making a single signalling location as resilient as possible rather than relying on the false sense of security created by having many different locations, each with the potential to cause widespread problems.

It's my understanding that the NR is now looking at bring forward the installation of ETCS with ATO on a number of congested lines into London. This will improve the capacity of those lines but TMS will also play a part in it. Introducing TMS at the ROCs allows the system to work across a broader area and so contributes to it's overall effectiveness.
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Not convinced by DAS as it will make optimisation of timetables very difficult as it will limit the amount of "true" data available if it is continues to be based on existing running times. Level 2 ETCS isnt going to deliver capacity either, only 3 will.

Re ETCS - NR is looking at Level 3 vs Level 2 as the option going forward.
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I still cannot see another ROC taking over from a 'failed' one, and of they did, I for one would not wnat to be on a train being signalled by the 'stand in', even by ARS if fitted! or where the staff would be to work it, maybe behind a 'break glass' partition ? The thought of Three Bridges, also working Romford is quite a nightmare! Compentency in working the location is a pre-requisite, it is all very well for someone to say ROC A can work ROC B, but in reality it is a lot different.

ROC's are OK, but then it's only a name no different to PSB or IECC at the end of the day, Maybe closing smaller locations into a bigger place is a good idea, but maybe make them of a manageable area, not a quarter of the Country ! The Controllers etc I assume will all be in the same building, but they will still have to use phones to call the Signaller as all such converstions are / need to be recorded, so they could still just be as easily 50+ miles away !

The capability is not currently designed in, but fail-over of automated functions would be fully feasible - that is, allowing for existing technical constraints with a number of products to be designed out.
 

The Planner

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I know we are, dont believe the timescales that are being quoted for it when we havent got level 2 to any extent whatsoever.
 

Olaf

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NR has posted a new video for the Susses Resignalling work with some internal shost from what seems to be Three Bridges ROC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2kv3_q-guc
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I know we are, dont believe the timescales that are being quoted for it when we havent got level 2 to any extent whatsoever.

Yes I am aware of the dates that NR has given, but they are an indicative target. I'm going by the availability of the manufactured product for time-scale estimates.
 

WestRiding

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Now that Network Rail has aborted Traffic Management System procurement, where does this leave the ROCs and the many 'planned' resignalling schemes that were based around having TMS as part of them? Looks like things are not too good in Network Rail, and what a waste of money......
 

collexions

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Hi. I currently work on the TMS 1st Deployment Schemes with Thales, for Wales & Romford ROCs.

It's now been confirmed that this initial deployment will continue to anticipated completion in Dec 2015, but that the subsequent deployment (National Roll-out) procurement is cancelled in it's current guise. :cry:

Press Release from this fortnight's Rail Business Intelligence (article)
NR aborts TMS procurement

Very little on-line, and no official PR announcement from NR :roll:

I believe more information will fall-out post election.

Current rumours have it that there may be a de-scoped roll-out featuring York & Three Bridges ROCs only. Further rumours suggest that TM suppliers have already been decided!? I'm reserving further speculation until May earliest.
 
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snowball

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I assume it's a mistake that the press release linked by collexions gives the number of ROCs as 11, and omits Gillingham?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Roger Ford will have a field day (in fact he might have penned the piece in RBI, as the subject has figured in his recent columns).
His main beef will be the waste of highly-skilled experts in yet another aborted "great leap forward".
It also seems to be the first casualty of NR's funding position, no doubt exacerbated by the electrification woes.
 

GB

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On a semi related note to this topic and for anyone interesting in East/North London and Anglia/Essex here are the new dates for some of the boxes.

First date is original planned migration date, second date is the updated dates.

Upminster IECC: Thameside 2015 2016
Elsenham gated crossing 2017 2017**
Clacton SB 2017 2018*
Acle SB 2016* 2018*
Brundall Junction SB 2016* 2018*
Cantley SB 2016* 2018*
Lowestoft SB 2016* 2018*
Oulton Broad North SB 2016* 2018*
Reedham Junction SB 2016* 2018*
Yarmouth Vauxhall SB 2016* 2018*
Lingwood gated crossing 2016* 2018*
Strumpshaw gated crossing 2016* 2018*
Brundall gated crossing 2016* 2018*
Bury St Edmunds Yard SB 2017 2019**
Chippenham Junction SB 2017 2019**
Dullingham SB 2017 2019**
Liverpool Street IECC 2019 2020
Acton Canal Wharf SB 2018 2021
Acton Wells Junction SB 2018 2021
Dudding Hill Junction SB 2018 2021
Neasden Junction SB 2018 2021
Richmond SB 2018 2021
South Tottenham SB 2018 2021
Upminster IECC: NLL 2018 2021
Upper Holloway SB 2018 2021
Ingatestone gated crossing 2019 2021
Downham Market SB 2021 2021
Kings Lynn Junction SB 2021 2021
Littleport SB 2021 2021
Magdalen Road SB 2021 2021
Colchester PSB 2017 2022
Cambridge PSB 2017 After 2023***


NOTES:
If your box is not listed then
there is no migration date
planned at this time.

* These boxes are part of
the Norwich, Yarmouth,
Lowestoft project and
planned to be migrated to
Colchester PSB in 2018 and
then migrate to the ROC in
2022.

** These boxes are planned
to be migrated to
Cambridge PSB in 2019 and
then migrate to the ROC
sometime after 2023.

If your box is listed and you
have not been spoken to
then this is because the
scheme is at an early stage
and still subject to
consultation and possible
change.

*** This date is provisional
but won’t be before 2023.
 

LAX54

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Which is good for the rest of us, as while they are working their way through that little lot they should be leaving the rest if us alone lol :D

And I assume all subject to being funded in CP6 !
 
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