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Rolling stock announcement regarding TPE (updated)

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northwichcat

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DfT said:
Rail services will be maintained and capacity on key routes will be increased as part of a plan to secure additional rolling stock for the north of England, Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin announced today (8 January 2015).

The plan means that existing rail services will be maintained from May 2015. This follows a decision by rolling stock leasing company Porterbrook to move trains running on the TransPennine Express route to the Chiltern franchise.

In addition, the Department for Transport has agreed a plan with the operators of the Northern and TransPennine Express routes to offer more carriages and seats.

Patrick McLoughlin said:

Rail services across the north are vital for passengers and for the economy. By helping people access work and leisure more easily, we are securing long-term economic growth across the region.

That is why we have worked hard with Northern and TransPennine Express to ensure we expand services and enhance passenger journeys.

Over the coming months, the agreement will deliver a number of benefits to passengers.

More carriages between Manchester and Blackpool
Capacity on selected services between Blackpool North and Manchester Airport / Manchester Oxford Road will be increased, providing extra seats for the benefit of passengers in destinations including Preston, Bolton and Salford.

Additional capacity on Cumbrian Coast services
Longer trains will provide extra capacity to Carlisle, Maryport, Workington, Whitehaven, Sellafield and Barrow-in-Furness, with potential to create additional jobs. There will also be an enhanced early-morning service from Carlisle to Sellafield, arriving in time for the morning shift at the power station.

Electric trains on Manchester Victoria to Liverpool and Liverpool to Preston routes
Refreshed electric trains, providing faster, smoother and greener journeys, will be rolled out on busy commuter routes between Liverpool and Manchester Victoria from May, at a faster rate than previously planned. In addition, refreshed electric trains will be rolled out on the Liverpool to Preston route in the autumn. This will free up existing diesel trains to create additional capacity elsewhere on the north’s network.

Revised services for South Cumbria and Windermere
A new 10:53am service from Windermere to Manchester Airport will be introduced, while the existing 1:33pm service from Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester Airport will depart at 12:13pm to provide more balanced services throughout the day. The 6:18am Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness service will no longer run, but a new, direct 5:14pm service from Manchester Oxford Road to Barrow-in-Furness will be introduced, with a connection for Windermere.

Revised services on the South TransPennine route
An hourly service will be maintained between Manchester Airport, Sheffield, Doncaster and Cleethorpes. The vast majority of these will remain as direct services. Limited amends are planned, with customers for the 3:55pm between Manchester Airport and Cleethorpes and the 4:26pm Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport needing to change at Doncaster.

Services between Manchester, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Yorkshire Coast, Humberside and the Northeast
All services will be operated with a minimum of 3 carriages or 181 seats, whereas at present some services on the route are operated by 2 carriage trains with 116 seats.

Nick Donovan, Managing Director for First TransPennine Express (FTPE) said:

A great deal of background work has been undertaken by ourselves, Northern Rail and the Department for Transport that seeks to ensure capacity and frequency of FTPE services across our network is maintained for the timetable change in May 2015.

I am delighted that we have been able to work together and develop a plan that aims to protect rail services for the huge majority of customers in the north of England and, indeed, deliver some additional capacity at a time when demand across our network is higher than ever.

Alex Hynes, Managing Director, Northern Rail said:

Rail travel is increasingly popular in the north of England placing capacity at a premium. That is why we have been working with First TransPennine Express and the Department for Transport to ensure customers would not be disadvantaged by the loss of some FTPE trains.

In doing so we are delighted to be able to provide more seats for customers on some of our busiest routes. Through deploying more electric trains to take advantage of newly electrified routes, we are able to help maintain capacity for FTPE and add more seats for customers in Cumbria, Lancashire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-plan-to-secure-rail-services-for-the-north

EDIT: The full break-down appears to be:

  • TransPennine Express will lose 5 x 170s to Chiltern in May. The remaining 4 x 170s will stay until February 2016.
  • From May TransPennine Express will have 3 Blackpool North-Manchester Airport diagrams operated by 4 car 156s instead of 3 car 185s.
  • TransPennine Express will not offer seat reservations, first class seating or trolley services on the class 156 booked services. They will be operated by TPE crews as Northern don't have spare crews.
  • Barrow services will be reviewed due to existing portion workings no longer being possible. There will be no direct northbound Manchester to Windermere services anymore. This could result in 4 car 156s running in paths between Manchester Airport and Preston where a 6 car 185 is currently used e.g. the 17:29 Manchester Airport to Preston path.
  • Northern Rail will hire 2 x loco hauled sets off DRS for Cumbrian Coast services.
  • Northern Rail will look at the option of splitting some or all Liverpool-Blackpool North services to free up some DMUs.
  • All North TPE services will be operated by 3 or 6 car 185s. This will mean a reduction in capacity on certain Hull services as they will get a 3 car 185 instead of a 4 car 170.
  • The remaining 4 x 170s will be used exclusively on South TPE.
  • Some South TPE services will be split at Doncaster with 2 car 170s working the eastern part.
  • TPE do not yet know what will take the place of the 6 car 185 working on Friday (and Saturday?) on Scottish services. The 6 car 185 working can't continue with the other changes.
 
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WatcherZero

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To me the 'TPE trains will be a minimum of 3 carriages' implies fewer 4 car trains :P

Theres not enough detail to properly analyse (Northern have issued exact same worded press release suggesting it was a pre-agreed script between the three), hints that Liverpool-Wigan/Preston electric introduction will be speeded up and that could possibly see Liverpool-Blackpool services split into an electric portion and a diesel portion saving a couple of DMU's which are then recycled on to Airport-Blackpool via Bolton.
 
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northwichcat

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Theres not enough detail to properly analyse

To me the things that suggest 3 car 158s are the mention of no more 2 car working on TPE (even though there is very limited 2 car working anyway.)

Also the mention of extra capacity for Manchester Airport to Blackpool without mentioning longer or more trains - a 3 car 158 has more seats than a 3 car 185.
 

northwichcat

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could possibly see Liverpool-Blackpool services split into an electric portion and a diesel portion saving a couple of DMU's which are then recycled on to Airport-Blackpool via Bolton.

I've just remembered the Farnworth tunnel closure, so Northern will be operating rail replacement buses between Easter and the Autumn. When it re-opens in the Autumn maybe we'll see Liverpool South Parkway to Preston electric services and Hazel Grove to Preston services extended to Blackpool?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Removal of the 0618 Manchester Airport to Barrow will mean no commuter-timed (8:30am arrival-ish) service into Barrow. This is mad.

Presumably Northern will be expected to provide a replacement Preston/Lancaster-Barrow service in that path using released DMUs, meaning even less extra capacity for other lines.
 
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WatcherZero

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I've just remembered the Farnworth tunnel closure, so Northern will be operating rail replacement buses between Easter and the Autumn. When it re-opens in the Autumn maybe we'll see Liverpool South Parkway to Preston electric services and Hazel Grove to Preston services extended to Blackpool?

Suppose they could also do electric Manchester-Preston via Wigan shuttles during tunnel closure though the wording seems to imply the capacity would be direct, I previously thought the plan was the long distance services would continue under the single line working while the Preston service would be bus replacement?
 

158722

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Electric trains on Manchester Victoria to Liverpool and Liverpool to Preston routes
In addition, refreshed electric trains will be rolled out on the Liverpool to Preston route in the autumn. This will free up existing diesel trains to create additional capacity elsewhere on the north’s network.

I don't interpret this as any transfer of 158s to TPE, more so a reshake of services to maximise the 185 fleet, with some services going over to Northern or being operated by Northern stock as a TP service (as per some of the Northern/ScotRail Carlisle-Dumfries services).

I'm interpreting refreshed electric trains Liverpool to Preston as the existing Blackpool service being cut back to Preston, with 4 319s displacing 4 156s for use elsewhere. Those and the 12 expected to be displaced by Chat Moss/Wigan going live this year, gives Northern a nice boost in capacity for the Cumbrian and extra services vice TP.

There might be a shock with loco-hauled stuff too...! I know, that old chestnut, but DRS have submitted costings for a daily Blackpool-Manchester peak time out and return service plus a Fridays only Manchester-Edinburgh and return with a 68.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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One of the most obtuse and incoherent announcements I can remember.
DfT are also incapable of using the 24-hour clock.
Why can they go into specific detail about single trains, but not paint the broader picture of how many extra trains and where?
It's also only a short-term thing to get through to the (supposed) 2016 franchise change.

Just take the "Manchester, West Yorks, ...Humberside" paragraph.
"All trains will be operated by a minimum of 3 carriages...". Really?
I suppose they mean TP North services, but a reader might think it applies equally to the Calder Valley line as well.
I don't think they have scoped the announcement well at all.
 
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northwichcat

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Why can they go into specific detail about single trains, but not paint the broader picture of how many extra trains and where?

Probably because there's an election coming up and they want to give the impression they control rolling stock cascades or want to unveil a press release will clearly specifies services currently operated by Desiros with First Class built in 2006 will instead be operated by Sprinters with Standard Class only built in the 1980s.
 

156441

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Staff memo just released. I'll not copy word for word but.

More 319s now coming to Northern.
156's to work in pairs on MIA - Blackpool services operated by TPE (Subleased off Northern)
Some 170's to remain subleased to FTPE.

Interesting times.
 

Bletchleyite

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156's to work in pairs on MIA - Blackpool services operated by TPE (Subleased off Northern)

"North West Express" makes a comeback? :)

In all seriousness, this is a perfect example of why TPE shouldn't have been separated, as a wider Northern could have arranged this far more easily.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Probably because there's an election coming up and they want to give the impression they control rolling stock cascades or want to unveil a press release will clearly specifies services currently operated by Desiros with First Class built in 2006 will instead be operated by Sprinters with Standard Class only built in the 1980s.

...with masses of extra capacity. 4x156 has *far* more seats than 3*185 because of the space-wasting layout of the latter.

Are Northern passengers never going to be happy? :)

Neil
 

158722

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Staff memo just released. I'll not copy word for word but.

More 319s now coming to Northern.
156's to work in pairs on MIA - Blackpool services operated by TPE (Subleased off Northern)
Some 170's to remain subleased to FTPE.

Interesting times.

Previous postings have identified the 28 319s due at Northern (or at least freed from TSGN for overhaul) by May 2015 - presumably these being the fleet to operate the Liverpool-Manchester-Blackpool axis whenever it (eventually) all gets wired. I guess we now know why their transfer had been brought forward, with 4 extra units for Liverpool-Preston on top of the 12 for LLS-MIA/VIC/WIG planned.

The 156 note confirms what I suspected...
 

northwichcat

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In all seriousness, this is a perfect example of why TPE shouldn't have been separated, as a wider Northern could have arranged this far more easily.

If the franchises were kept as they were North West express routes (including North Wales services) could have remained to be operated by 175s (supplemented by 158s) and any North/South TPE stock issue wouldn't have affected North West services.
 

matacaster

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I notice the word "refreshed" in the press release.

Is "refreshed" = "refurbished - light" (ie new seat covers or some TPE vinyls?)
 

Bletchleyite

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I notice the word "refreshed" in the press release.

Is "refreshed" = "refurbished - light" (ie new seat covers or some TPE vinyls?)

Generally refreshed = new seat covers and a coat of paint, refurbished = new seats and PRM-TSI compliance.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No but TPE passengers who booked first class might not be :)

From observation, the main reason for going First Class on TPE is to get a seat. (No smiley.)

Neil
 

northwichcat

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...with masses of extra capacity. 4x156 has *far* more seats than 3*185 because of the space-wasting layout of the latter.

As I don't have a time machine I didn't know what 156441 was going to post 5 minutes later. :roll: I was working on the principle TPE were getting 3 car trains.

Are Northern passengers never going to be happy? :)

We're talking about TPE passengers not Northern!

When people complain about TPE trains have commuter door layout other people are quick to defend that saying about them being better for high loadings at intermediate stations and loading/unloading luggage on to the train. Are those same people going to lament using 156s on Blackpool-Airport services?
 
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northwichcat

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Same difference on the North West Express routes.

No. Northern don't offer First Class, on board trolley service, advance fares (on North West routes), air conditioning or even clean train interiors (except on the electric routes.) It's like saying Virgin on the WCML is the same as LM.
 

Bletchleyite

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No. Northern don't offer First Class, on board trolley service, advance fares (on North West routes)

Irrelevant to a local commuter operation that was an InterCity service of convenience.

air conditioning

I'll give you that one (though 158s would have provided that if they had been chosen).

or even clean train interiors (except on the electric routes.)

That's inexcusable, I'll give you, but Northern needs a kick about that. And the passengers, who are the ones not putting the litter in the bins.

It's like saying Virgin on the WCML is the same as LM.

When Virgin are operating short semifast commuter services I'll agree.

I think it's more like saying LM Tring locals are the same as LM Crewe semifasts, which (in operational style) they are. Or fGW Oxford fasts and slows (which they largely are, though I'll give you some are HST).

Neil
 

northwichcat

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Irrelevant to a local commuter operation that was an InterCity service of convenience.

TPE is less of a commuter operation than some South of England services which have air conditioning and First Class. If Manchester Airport-Blackpool is commuter than should some Virgin Birmingham-London not also be considered commuter services?

And the passengers, who are the ones not putting the litter in the bins.

I was thinking more about dirty floors and windows. I've never seen a Northern passenger throw mud at the windows.
 
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158722

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From Tony Miles of MR on wnxx;
5 x 170s stay with TPE until Feb 2016 (initially)
6 x 156 sub hired on a daily basis from Northern working as 4-car sets on MIA-Blackpoool services
2 x LHCS sets onto Cumbrian Coast for Northern - 37 & DVT...
More 319s to Northern than originally contracted - although I guess this is just a formal aproval of the ones already identified that were beyond the original quantity DfT had agreed.

There may be some 4-car 170 formations that fall back to 3-car 185s... DfT is a long way from t'north and if people are unhappy they can vote in May - although the new Labour Transport 'Shadow' is so anti-rail I fear for the future of the railways if he stays involved.
 

Bletchleyite

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TPE is less of a commuter operation than some South of England services which have air conditioning and First Class.

First Class in the Sarfeast exists for one reason, and one reason only, which is a higher chance of a seat on very crowded trains. The seats are often very similar to Standard (350/1) or identical but for an antimacassar (Southern and Southeastern). It's almost never, except on the SWT 444 services which are really long-distance IC, 2+1; pretty much always 2+2.

Air conditioning again I'll give you, but except for about 2 months a year it's really not that big a thing. I suppose there's the engine noise thing with open windows, but Desiro aircon makes a racket that more than makes up for that. Though personally I'd swap a 2+2 seated 156 for a 3+2 seated 350 any day.

If Manchester Airport-Blackpool is commuter than should some Virgin Birmingham-London not also be considered commuter services?

They are not even comparable. When there is a TPE service from Blackpool to Manchester calling at Preston and Manchester Piccadilly only, they will be. The Scottish services are perhaps comparable.

The "North West Express" routes, even more so the Blackpool one, are more comparable with the entire LM London-Birmingham operation. They have no similarity at all to the Virgin WCML operation.

And if you want the Virgin operation, are you happy for a tripling of your Anytime fares to go with it? No, I thought not.

I was thinking more about dirty floors and windows. I've never seen a Northern passenger throw mud at the windows.

Yes, this is inexcusable and Northern should be kicked to sort it out.

Neil
 

swt_passenger

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So in a quick summary, TPE lose initially 4 x 170s, and a route is transferred to Northern operation as predicted in earlier threads, to be operated by 6 x 156s.

So that's a net gain of 4 carriages for current TPE services?

All the other benefits that spring from extra 319s and a couple of LHCS services affect Northern.

Panic over then...
 

SGS

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Onto the *Cumbrian Coast*? That'll be worth a trip.

I'm guessing you mean *67* though.

Neil

The trials a few years ago used 37s. I'd guess these are almost certain to be DRS-operated so it could well be 37s.
 

northwichcat

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All the other benefits that spring from extra 319s

One of the benefits was supposed to be more capacity for the lines not being electrified like Manchester-Blackburn, Manchester-Southport, Manchester-Leeds via Bradford, Manchester-Chester via Altrincham, Leeds-Sheffield etc. but now due to Chiltern taking the 170s some of that benefit has been transferred down South.

and the rumour of a couple of LHCS services affect Northern.

Corrected that for you.

Panic over then...

The fear was Northern would lose trains to TPE instead of getting 319s as extra trains. It seems that is exactly what's happening. We really knew TPE would take Northern trains if no better option could be found.
 

swt_passenger

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Corrected that for you.

Thank you kindly. So now how about correcting the first post where you started a completely unsubstantiated rumour that TPE would be taking on Northern 158s?

Anyone skimming through the opening post would probably see that as the key point...
 

northwichcat

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The "North West Express" routes, even more so the Blackpool one, are more comparable with the entire LM London-Birmingham operation. When there is a TPE service from Blackpool to Manchester calling at Preston and Manchester Piccadilly only, they will be. They have no similarity at all to the Virgin WCML operation.

So in that case which operator provides the fast Manchester Airport to Blackpool service if you're comparing TPE to the slow operator between Euston and Birmingham?

Anyway even by your own comparison would you be happy with 1980s 319s ran LM Euston-Birmingham services instead of the modern Desiros?

And if you want the Virgin operation, are you happy for a tripling of your Anytime fares to go with it? No, I thought not.

Well that's a ridiculous statement. Virgin offer dirt cheap fares except if the journey is in to Euston at peak times.

Manchester-Stoke Day Anytime Return
Route ANY PERMITTED
Fare Setter: CROSSCOUNTRY
Adult £17.50

Manchester-Stoke Day Anytime Return
Route VIRGIN TRNSONLY
Fare Setter: VIRGIN WEST COAST
Adult £12.50

So yes we'd be more than happy with new Virgin only Blackpool-Manchester Airport tickets which cost 30% less than the Any Permitted tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thank you kindly. So now how about correcting the first post where you started a completely unsubstantiated rumour that TPE would be taking on Northern 158s?

Anyone skimming through the opening post would probably see that as the key point...

Well that's not technically wrong. I clearly said that was my interpretation of the press release and didn't try to claim it's a fact. I also had to add my own interpretation/opinion to the original post to comply with forum rules which state you cannot just copy and paste a news story without adding anything to it. However, now that 158722 has posted further information I will edit the original post to draw attention to that.
 
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