Rolling stock announcement regarding TPE (updated)

[Philip]

When will the 156s replace 185s on Blackpool services? May this year?

And will the Cumbria - Manchester services remain 185s?

 

[158722]

Onto the *Cumbrian Coast*? That'll be worth a trip.

I'm guessing you mean *67* though.

Neil

No, copied from Tony's post.

 

[Viscount702]

I assume the changes take effect from May.

Aren't 4 diagrams required for the Airport-Blackpool service. If so what will operate the other diagram

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, copied from Tony's post.

37s and DVTs seem a very unlikely combination. Certain to be 67s I think. So I suspect an error by Tony.

Neil

 

[CC 72100]

We know that DB have 67s, but do they have serviceable stock that could be used? This is a genuine question - having seen pictures of the Fife Circle rake - not a thinly-veined criticism.

DRS however do have refurbished Mark 2s which are more or less available, and 37s - indeed some were meant to be going over to East Anglia, however the mention of the DVT puts a complete spanner in the works.

 

[158722]

37s and DVTs seem a very unlikely combination. Certain to be 67s I think. So I suspect an error by Tony.

Neil

Subsequent comments corrected to 37s and DBSOs. AFAIK, DRS have 2 DBSOs (9705/07), both at RVEL, with one due to go to Anglia, unless something has been renegotiated. Have DRS acquired 9713 from Riviera as well as 2 coaches for 2 sets seems a bit risky.

Why do you expect 67s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Subsequent comments corrected to 37s and DBSOs. AFAIK, DRS have 2 DBSOs (9705/07), both at RVEL, with one due to go to Anglia, unless something has been renegotiated. Have DRS acquired 9713 from Riviera as well as 2 coaches for 2 sets seems a bit risky.

Why do you expect 67s?

Ah, 37, Mk2 and DBSO would also work. The reason I expected 67s was that I don't believe there are any DVTs (as distinct from DBSOs) adapted to work with 37s.

I guess DVT was the mistake then. Even better

Neil

 

[47802]

I assume the changes take effect from May.

Aren't 4 diagrams required for the Airport-Blackpool service. If so what will operate the other diagram

The way I read it is that some Blackpool - Airport services will still be worked by TPX stock presumably 185's, also that the service will remain a TPX service but with some sub leased Northern 156's.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The 156s used by TPE will be crewed by TPE drivers and guards, as confirmed today by the MD. Talks start immediately with the trades unions representatives to negotiate how the training will take place. Further information expected very soon internally as to the finer details if how diagrams etc would work. The remaining 170s will be used solely on the South Route.

 

[fgwrich]

Subsequent comments corrected to 37s and DBSOs. AFAIK, DRS have 2 DBSOs (9705/07), both at RVEL, with one due to go to Anglia, unless something has been renegotiated. Have DRS acquired 9713 from Riviera as well as 2 coaches for 2 sets seems a bit risky.

Why do you expect 67s?

Expanding on your post, is the fact it was really only likely to be DRS 37s and DBSOs from the start - No 37 can work with a DVT and any 67 working with a DVT would have to be modified first. Class 37s are Bluestar Multi Working and the DBSOs have been modified (as per the network rail ones) to work with this instead of TDM. The DVTS however work from the American derived system of AAR which to work with a 67 would require a few modifications, most notably remote fire control - certain 67s have been modified for this to work with the Chiltern and DB Managers Train rakes though, but I cant imagine this being a DB job seeing as DRS have been proposing it for a number of years now.

 

[387star]

copied from rail news

FTPE to retain four Class 170s – but five will still go to Chiltern
First TransPennine Express (FTPE) is to keep hold of four of its Chiltern Railways-bound Class 170s until February 2016, rather than losing all nine.
In what has been termed a ‘complex solution’ to maintain and increase rail capacity in the north, FTPE said it has worked hard with the DfT and Northern Rail to provide a solution to the loss of nine Class 170s, while protecting the current capacity levels.
The company’s Class 170s currently operate on services between Manchester and Hull, and Manchester and Cleethorpes, but from 17 May 2015 five will be leased to Chiltern Railways with FTPE retaining four of the current fleet, under an agreement with Porterbrook.
The retained 170s will continue to operate on services between Manchester, South Yorkshire and the Lincolnshire coast. However, FTPE added more of its services will be operated by three-car Class 185s rather than the current Class 170s – providing roughly the same level of capacity.
All services between Manchester, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Humberside, the Yorkshire Coast and the North East will be operated by Class 185 trains with either three or six carriages as opposed to some currently being operated with Class 170 trains.
For those travelling to Manchester and Hull (via Leeds), the operator says passengers “will experience no disadvantage from the loss of the Class 170s”.
“From May 2015 FTPE will no longer be operating Class 170 trains on the route. We have protected the timetable and the current capacity levels and all services will be operated by Class 185 trains with either three or six carriages,” said FTPE, adding: “Class 185s are reliable, safe and comfortable trains with 181 seats, a first class provision and two toilets on board.”
But whilst frequency will be maintained, FTPE will not be able to operate two direct services between Manchester Airport and Cleethorpes. Customers for the 15.55 between Manchester Airport and Cleethorpes and the 16.26 Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport will now need to change at Doncaster.
From May, some services between Manchester Airport and Blackpool North will be operated by four-car Class 156s, as opposed to three-car Class 185s. These will be branded as Northern Rail but will be operated by FTPE staff.
Additionally, FTPE will continue to operate electric four carriage trains between Manchester and Scotland through Monday to Thursday. On Fridays, FTPE currently supplements this service with the use of diesel three-car Class 185s. But the company said: “We are still assessing how services on this route will be affected from May 2015 but we will endeavour to provide a solution that accounts for fleet deployment but replicates current provision.”
Nick Donovan, managing director of FTPE, said: “A great deal of background work has been undertaken by ourselves, Northern Rail and the DfT that seeks to ensure capacity and frequency of FTPE services across our network is maintained for the timetable change in May 2015.
“I am delighted that we have been able to work together and develop a plan that aims to protect rail services for the huge majority of customers in the north of England and, indeed, deliver some additional capacity at a time when demand across our network is higher than ever.”

 

[47802]

copied from rail news

FTPE to retain four Class 170s – but five will still go to Chiltern
First TransPennine Express (FTPE) is to keep hold of four of its Chiltern Railways-bound Class 170s until February 2016, rather than losing all nine.
In what has been termed a ‘complex solution’ to maintain and increase rail capacity in the north, FTPE said it has worked hard with the DfT and Northern Rail to provide a solution to the loss of nine Class 170s, while protecting the current capacity levels.
The company’s Class 170s currently operate on services between Manchester and Hull, and Manchester and Cleethorpes, but from 17 May 2015 five will be leased to Chiltern Railways with FTPE retaining four of the current fleet, under an agreement with Porterbrook.
The retained 170s will continue to operate on services between Manchester, South Yorkshire and the Lincolnshire coast. However, FTPE added more of its services will be operated by three-car Class 185s rather than the current Class 170s – providing roughly the same level of capacity.
All services between Manchester, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Humberside, the Yorkshire Coast and the North East will be operated by Class 185 trains with either three or six carriages as opposed to some currently being operated with Class 170 trains.
For those travelling to Manchester and Hull (via Leeds), the operator says passengers “will experience no disadvantage from the loss of the Class 170s”.
“From May 2015 FTPE will no longer be operating Class 170 trains on the route. We have protected the timetable and the current capacity levels and all services will be operated by Class 185 trains with either three or six carriages,” said FTPE, adding: “Class 185s are reliable, safe and comfortable trains with 181 seats, a first class provision and two toilets on board.”
But whilst frequency will be maintained, FTPE will not be able to operate two direct services between Manchester Airport and Cleethorpes. Customers for the 15.55 between Manchester Airport and Cleethorpes and the 16.26 Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport will now need to change at Doncaster.
From May, some services between Manchester Airport and Blackpool North will be operated by four-car Class 156s, as opposed to three-car Class 185s. These will be branded as Northern Rail but will be operated by FTPE staff.
Additionally, FTPE will continue to operate electric four carriage trains between Manchester and Scotland through Monday to Thursday. On Fridays, FTPE currently supplements this service with the use of diesel three-car Class 185s. But the company said: “We are still assessing how services on this route will be affected from May 2015 but we will endeavour to provide a solution that accounts for fleet deployment but replicates current provision.”
Nick Donovan, managing director of FTPE, said: “A great deal of background work has been undertaken by ourselves, Northern Rail and the DfT that seeks to ensure capacity and frequency of FTPE services across our network is maintained for the timetable change in May 2015.
“I am delighted that we have been able to work together and develop a plan that aims to protect rail services for the huge majority of customers in the north of England and, indeed, deliver some additional capacity at a time when demand across our network is higher than ever.”

Tony Miles on WNXX is saying 5 170's are staying with TPE but this says 4 also on BBC Look North at lunch time it was also saying that 4 are staying.

 

[WatcherZero]

How many 185's does the Airport-Blackpool diagram use? Sounds like their worried they will still be facing a reduction in Scotland strengthening capacity.

 

[northwichcat]

How many 185's does the Airport-Blackpool diagram use? Sounds like their worried they will still be facing a reduction in Scotland strengthening capacity.

5 diagrams by my reckoning.

The northbound services which include a Barrow/Windermere portion are the ones departing the Airport at 09:29, 11:29, 14:29 and 17:29.

 

[fgwrich]

With all this going on, and the DfT knowing about it for some time - Why hasn't any of the ScotRail 170s been hired? I'm aware of the situation whereby Southern of course managed to take the lease of the first batch to finish, but couldn't an arrangement have been made there?

 

[northwichcat]

With all this going on, and the DfT knowing about it for some time - Why hasn't any of the ScotRail 170s been hired? I'm aware of the situation whereby Southern of course managed to take the lease of the first batch to finish, but couldn't an arrangement have been made there?

I imagine because TPE can't make any post-March 2015 decisions unless DfT tell them to (because that's when the franchise currently ends) and DfT aren't going to tell them to do something that'll annoy the Scottish parliament.

If on the other hand TPE had been given the Direct Award and then Chiltern had nabbed the 170s before TPE managed to get a lease extension they probably would have considered that option.

 

[alexl92]

Which diagrams would the 37s be operating on the Cumbrian Coast line?

Also, why have TPE not been able to take any 3-car 170s? Surely that would have been a logical option for the Hull services?

 

[Olaf]

Oh dear, crisis averted. Oh, well, I guess the next molehill will be along shortly.

 

[158722]

DRS confirmed as having signed a contract with Northern as regards traction provision for the Cumbrian coast... No details as yet.

 

[DarloRich]

There might be a shock with loco-hauled stuff too...! I know, that old chestnut, but DRS have submitted costings for a daily Blackpool-Manchester peak time out and return service plus a Fridays only Manchester-Edinburgh and return with a 68.

heard similar rumours today for the Cumbrian Coast - 2 x LCHS sets plus all manner of traction from class 37's with DVT (or DBSO) to Class 91 with Mallard on the other end

I remain surprised that a back room deal wasn’t done to keep the 170's with TPE.

 

[Viscount702]

Where does this leave Northern.

They currently don't have enough stock to run what services they have. They will now have 6x156 less than now. I know they will be getting 319s and quicker than originally intended but will they have enough in time to start the services on the Todmorden Curve and boast other services as had been intended.

 

[158722]

Where does this leave Northern.

They currently don't have enough stock to run what services they have. They will now have 6x156 less than now. I know they will be getting 319s and quicker than originally intended but will they have enough in time to start the services on the Todmorden Curve and boast other services as had been intended.

Something up to 14 DMUs will be freed up by Liverpool to Manchester, Warrington and Wigan going over to electric progressively from this May (?) onwards. No doubt the slack will come from this to cover the TPE services, Todmorden extras (2 units?) with the other units used to strengthen some other services.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Where does this leave Northern.

They currently don't have enough stock to run what services they have. They will now have 6x156 less than now. I know they will be getting 319s and quicker than originally intended but will they have enough in time to start the services on the Todmorden Curve and boast other services as had been intended.

Not that I can see intially.

The diesel units displaced by the initial introduction of 319s on Liverpool - Manchester services will allow 156s to go to TPE. As not all the Liverpool - Manchester diagrams are currently 156s then there will no doubt be an internal shuffle round within Northern.

Anything else may have to wait until the Autumn when the Liverpool - Preston service is seemingly going electric.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Anything else may have to wait until the Autumn when the Liverpool - Preston service is seemingly going electric.

The only thing stopping that service going electric earlier will be the availability of enough 319s.
I suppose that depends on the refresh programme.

 

[Philip]

Going off the number of 156s being released for TPE use, I'm guessing the Barrow/Windermere services and a handful of Blackpool services will be 185s? Six 156s won't cover all the Blackpool diagrams if they're running in pairs. What would they do about first class if it's a mixture of 156s and 185s?

 

[Starmill]

...with masses of extra capacity. 4x156 has *far* more seats than 3*185 because of the space-wasting layout of the latter.

Are Northern passengers never going to be happy?

Neil

I wish you would think about what you are saying before you say it. Your 'space-wasting' is because a 185 has First Class, luggage racks and much bigger doors. A 156 will thusly see dwell time shoot through the roof (particularly at Salford Crescent), suitcases being left in the wheelchair area and in front of doors (because there is nowhere else to put them and this is an Airport route) and less revenue because of the lack of First Class (potentially additional costs compensating those with FC tickets).

I have also had enough of your 'anti-northern passenger' attitude.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Going off the number of 156s being released for TPE use, I'm guessing the Barrow/Windermere services and a handful of Blackpool services will be 185s? Six 156s won't cover all the Blackpool diagrams if they're running in pairs. What would they do about first class if it's a mixture of 156s and 185s?

TPE have released a Q & A, here, which basically says that the 156s will be branded Northern rail, will not have catering, will not have first class and will not have seat reservations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going off the number of 156s being released for TPE use, I'm guessing the Barrow/Windermere services and a handful of Blackpool services will be 185s? Six 156s won't cover all the Blackpool diagrams if they're running in pairs. What would they do about first class if it's a mixture of 156s and 185s?

I'd assume they will indicate in the timetable which trains carry First Class accommodation. Not all Manchester-Blackpool trains do now - the Northern ones don't.

Neil

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I'd assume they will indicate in the timetable which trains carry First Class accommodation. Not all Manchester-Blackpool trains do now - the Northern ones don't.

Neil

I would assume they would have set diagrams, not least as the reservations systems would need to know. I would suspect that it'll be advertised clearly, in the same way as the Southern trains without toilets are along the South Coast.

Depending on how the Windermere / Barrow services work you could get away with only 4 diagrams on the Blackpool services, thus seeing 3 being 156s and 1 being a 185 diagram.

 

[Philip]

There's no mention of the 09:29 Manchester Airport to Windermere being cancelled and that is a portion working with the Blackpool train. The 17:29 Barrow/Blackpool portion is also unaffected which is on the same diagram as the 09:29. This should remain 185s.