Rolling stock announcement regarding TPE (updated)

[Wolfie]

I wish you would think about what you are saying before you say it. Your 'space-wasting' is because a 185 has First Class, luggage racks and much bigger doors. A 156 will thusly see dwell time shoot through the roof (particularly at Salford Crescent), suitcases being left in the wheelchair area and in front of doors (because there is nowhere else to put them and this is an Airport route) and less revenue because of the lack of First Class (potentially additional costs compensating those with FC tickets).

I have also had enough of your 'anti-northern passenger' attitude.

I think that, in general, the OP (Neil Williams) responded to has been quite balanced and constructive. At times I think nothing short of masses of brand new trains and even cheaper fares (all of course paid for by someone else) would be acceptable to our Northern brethren. Without being nasty, wake up and smell the coffee, it's not going to happen. All things being even the DfT short-term solution isn't roo bad...

 

[158756]

I'd assume they will indicate in the timetable which trains carry First Class accommodation. Not all Manchester-Blackpool trains do now - the Northern ones don't.

Neil

The q and a appears to indicate they will still have first class on the 185s, but for a service every 3/4 hours I don't really see the point- to use a first class ticket you'd have to plan your entire day around the few trains with it.

 

[CC 72100]

TPE must make very sure that the 'Northern' services are always running in doubled up formation: can you imagine the flack they'll get if a single 156 turns up given how these passengers will have already found their train downgraded?

 

[158756]

TPE must make very sure that the 'Northern' services are always running in doubled up formation: can you imagine the flack they'll get if a single 156 turns up given how these passengers will have already found their train downgraded?

If the train says Northern on the side they'll get the flack from most people, not TPE. I also doubt passengers will be very happy with 'journey times may increase by up to 10 minutes' (question 8 in the q&a linked above.).

Talking of which, this is probably the wrong thread, but will the 75mph 156s be able to divert along the WCML during the Farnworth blockade?

 

[WatcherZero]

Is it me or does that Q&A read like it was written by the Government rather than TPE?

Q&A:
Manchester Airport-Blackpool Journey times will increase by up to 10 minutes because 156 are slower than 185.
Cleethorpes split confirmed, east of Doncaster will be operated by a single 170, west of Doncaster will be operated by something longer.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not sure what to make of this announcement, though as an East-sider, it presumably won't affect me that much. I will miss the 170s though, as the tip-up seats are handy for the Dewsbury to Huddersfield hop. :cry:

As for the door layout of the 156s running Blackpool services, I think the dwell times are less of an issue on these services. The 185s were ordered principally for North Transpennine services, where, at 4tph dwell times had already been identified as a problem. Between Manchester and Leeds, even daytime services are standing room only more often than not.
If my commute was, say, Lostock to Salford (changing Bolton*) rather than Batley to Huddersfield (changing Dewsbury), I'd rather a seat on a 156 for part of the journey, than standing on a 185.

*=Yes, I know there'd be no time advantage to changing there, but it at least vaguely matches my own commute.

Might have to have a trip to Barrow, though!

 

[CosherB]

DRS offering 50 year old plus rolling stock and locos ...... with recent experience on the Night Riviera, I'd have thought that they dare not trust passenger services to one loco only! T&t 37's .....?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

TPE must make very sure that the 'Northern' services are always running in doubled up formation: can you imagine the flack they'll get if a single 156 turns up given how these passengers will have already found their train downgraded?

It will depend on what Northern hand over each day.

There will not be a separate pool of units - TPE will get 6 units per day from the general pot, much the same as at the start of the franchise with the 175s. If Northern are short of 156s, they may not hand over 6 each day - but it depends on the financial arrangements. They may hand over 6 but short form some of their own services.

4 units will start at Blackpool each day, 2 units starting from Allerton each day.

 

[alexl92]

DRS offering 50 year old plus rolling stock and locos ...... with recent experience on the Night Riviera, I'd have thought that they dare not trust passenger services to one loco only! T&t 37's .....?

I wouldn't care about the age of the train as long as it's in good nick. I know reliability could be an issue for the 37s (hopefully with this being closer to 'home' for DRS they'll be better maintained) but as long as the carriages are clean and comfortable then that's what matters.

 

[Domh245]

I personally would have thought that it would be easier for Northern to operate and staff the replacement 156 services, as you wouldn't need to have TPE drivers and guards needing to learn new traction, but it could still be described as TPE on TOPs, or make it easier - just transfer those services on a semi-permanent basis to Northern, or are there still issues with staffing levels at Northern?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

4 units will start at Blackpool each day, 2 units starting from Allerton each day.

That suggests some 156 services will remain on the Liverpool routes (to either Airport or Blackpool), early and late, to position for the "TPE" services.
Or some ECS workings from Allerton.

 

[158722]

Comments received (can't say where...) regarding the possibility out and back Preston-Carlisle-Preston turns, worked by DRS using loco/stock ECS from Crewe. There is an 0519 Preston-Carlisle calling at Sellafield at 0750 and a 1512 return, calling at Sellafield at 1643...

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure what to make of this announcement, though as an East-sider, it presumably won't affect me that much. I will miss the 170s though, as the tip-up seats are handy for the Dewsbury to Huddersfield hop. :cry:

As for the door layout of the 156s running Blackpool services, I think the dwell times are less of an issue on these services. The 185s were ordered principally for North Transpennine services, where, at 4tph dwell times had already been identified as a problem. Between Manchester and Leeds, even daytime services are standing room only more often than not.
If my commute was, say, Lostock to Salford (changing Bolton*) rather than Batley to Huddersfield (changing Dewsbury), I'd rather a seat on a 156 for part of the journey, than standing on a 185.

*=Yes, I know there'd be no time advantage to changing there, but it at least vaguely matches my own commute.

Might have to have a trip to Barrow, though!

I'd disagree. North west services are only allowed to be stopped at Piccadilly for a couple of minutes. With the exception of Liverpool services North TPE services have long stops at Piccadilly (and Leeds) quite often long enough to allow a crew change.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it me or does that Q&A read like it was written by the Government rather than TPE?

Q&A:
Manchester Airport-Blackpool Journey times will increase by up to 10 minutes because 156 are slower than 185.
Cleethorpes split confirmed, east of Doncaster will be operated by a single 170, west of Doncaster will be operated by something longer.

Does Patrick McLoughlin have a kid at primary school? The grammar is awful and I can only conclude either a child wrote it or someone in an office was told 15 minutes before they were due to go home they had to get it done before they could go home.

 

[Starmill]

I'm more concerned about Salford Crescent, where large numbers of passengers try to board trains that are already very full from Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate. The vestibules are very small in 156s, given that people (me included) refuse to stand in the aisles of such trains, I think fewer people will be able to board 2*156 than 1*185.

Will TPE withdraw Manchester - Preston/Blackpool Advance tickets from these trains I wonder. Clearly they cannot sell Advance First. If not, they will need counted place reservations... I also wonder how long before somebody with a TPE ticket misses their train because it says Northern on it!

I should imagine there will be days when they receive <6 units also. And what will happen then!

I suppose other items of note might be that 185s have PIS and compliant toilets, which the new trains will not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm more concerned about Salford Crescent, where large numbers of passengers try to board trains that are already very full from Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate. The vestibules are very small in 156s, given that people (me included) refuse to stand in the aisles of such trains, I think fewer people will be able to board 2*156 than 1*185.

Why do you refuse to stand in the aisle of a Class 156? Come down South and you'll know what overcrowding is - on many peak trains in the South East (fGW probably the worst) people would be left behind if such stubbornness applied.

In the meantime, move down the train please, so everyone can board. If you don't, make space so others can. If that's not possible, alight and re-board at each station in order to allow that.

Will TPE withdraw Manchester - Preston/Blackpool Advance tickets from these trains I wonder. Clearly they cannot sell Advance First. If not, they will need counted place reservations...

I retain my view that if these trains are overcrowded, there should be no Advance fares sold on them at all. If they're not overcrowded, the ones that aren't being the ones on which Advance fares should be sold, then there is no problem.

I also wonder how long before somebody with a TPE ticket misses their train because it says Northern on it!

I'm sure they'll cope. I'd imagine there will be "on hire to" stickers or something. It's all been done before.

I should imagine there will be days when they receive <6 units also. And what will happen then!

Short-formations, just as happens when they can't turn out enough 185s, which is hardly unusual. The Class 156 is a solid, reliable workhorse - a true successor of the MetCamm Class 101 which lasted nearly 50 years in front line service.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I also doubt passengers will be very happy with 'journey times may increase by up to 10 minutes' (question 8 in the q&a linked above.).

Have the timetables been tightened up since the 185s were introduced? Pretty sure the fNW 175s ran on 156 timings.

But (and I'll put my money where my mouth is, as I deliberately take slower commuter trains to achieve this) I'd rather have a seat and a longer journey than no seat and a shorter one.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

Why do you refuse to stand in the aisle of a Class 156? Come down South and you'll know what overcrowding is - on many peak trains in the South East (fGW probably the worst) people would be left behind if such stubbornness applied.

Because there are no roof handles. Some 156s have seats with handles, but not all. If you are stood between two tables, there is nothing at all to hold on to, so you will fall over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The q and a appears to indicate they will still have first class on the 185s, but for a service every 3/4 hours I don't really see the point- to use a first class ticket you'd have to plan your entire day around the few trains with it.

Some people will do, as some people must be buying the Advance tickets on this route.

But I do take the view that most users of TPE First Class on these routes (rather than TPE proper or the Scottish services) are doing so simply to avoid overcrowding.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because there are no roof handles. Some 156s have seats with handles, but not all. If you are stood between two tables, there is nothing at all to hold on to, so you will fall over.

There aren't in a 185 either. You can hold onto the seats if you need to, or indeed the seats with the handles where provided.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wish you would think about what you are saying before you say it. Your 'space-wasting' is because a 185 has First Class, luggage racks and much bigger doors.

First Class is a waste of space on a short distance service that is heavily overcrowded. Meanwhile, the Class 156 has a large van area at one end perfect for heavy luggage - the ex-fNW ones even have a nice big shelf in there.

The wheelchair space is by the disabled bog (albeit quite small).

A 156 will thusly see dwell time shoot through the roof (particularly at Salford Crescent)

You do know that the NorthWest Express routes were operated using 156s for years? The green-stripe variety were quite popular - InterCity like trains (a bit like Mk3s without aircon, in a way) on local routes. They didn't cause massive issues.

suitcases being left in the wheelchair area and in front of doors (because there is nowhere else to put them and this is an Airport route)

As noted above, there's the van area. The overhead racks are also, like the 185s, generously sized.

and less revenue because of the lack of First Class (potentially additional costs compensating those with FC tickets).

I doubt First Class revenue is all that high - or if it is, it's being taken on largely false pretences due to people paying for it purely to escape overcrowding. These services traditionally did not carry First Class - they are not InterCity services. The only reason they do now is because all the 185s are the same.

I have also had enough of your 'anti-northern passenger' attitude.

I think that is over the top.

OK, here's your chance. The 170s are going; this is a done deal. How do *you* solve the problem? While I know it's difficult, give some ideas as to the cost, and if extra subsidy will be required please explain where it will come from.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

There aren't in a 185 either. You can hold onto the seats if you need to, or indeed the seats with the handles where provided.

Neil

Quite. I won't stand between two tables in the aisle of a 185 either - and it has caused me some grief before.

What is there to hold on to?

Source: Flickr.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Because there are no roof handles. Some 156s have seats with handles, but not all. If you are stood between two tables, there is nothing at all to hold on to, so you will fall over.

You ever had to stand on an HST?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite. I won't stand between two tables in the aisle of a 185 either - and it has caused me some grief before.

What is there to hold on to?

The green handles on the seats, for one. The seat back itself, for another.

Hundreds if not thousands of people a day stand in these:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tern_Refreshed_HST_A3_TS_42178_Interior_1.JPG

Yes, right down the aisle. If they didn't, there would be a riot, as many would not get to travel at all.

They used to look like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Virgin_Trains_West_Coast_Mark_3A_TSO_Interior.JPG

and there was no less standing.

Neil

 

[CC 72100]

You ever had to stand on an HST?

I'll admit, that was my thought too, from experience!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....What is there to hold on to?.....

Do you really need someone to answer that?

 

[Class83]

In the TPE FAQ document, here are several references such as this one "All services between Manchester, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Humberside, the Yorkshire Coast and the North East will be operated by Class 185 trains with either three or six carriages as opposed to some currently being operated with Class 170 trains" which omit any reference to Liverpool. Then this statement "Northern Rail will operate electric trains (Class 319s) with 4 carriages between Liverpool and Manchester via Newton le Willows"

Is TPE North still going to be operating to Liverpool or are they terminating at Manchester?

 

[Starmill]

Do you really need someone to answer that?

We'll conclude this conversation when you are sat in the seat I am stood next to in the middle of the 156 carriage?

 

[Qwerty133]

Prepares to be shot...
I believe that SWT 158s mainly run in multiple, and as TPE services currently use trains with 1st class, I believe that 11 Northern 156s should have been transferred to SWT in return for there 158s, and SWT should be told to diagram 158+159 wherever possible, reducing services no longer containing first class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We'll conclude this conversation when you are sat in the seat I am stood next to in the middle of the 156 carriage?

Again, try fGW in the morning peak from Reading to London, and say that again.

I genuinely consider 4.156 a significant improvement over 3.185, mainly because of the significantly higher number of Standard seats. 6.185 is just *not happening*, so thinking about it is pointless.

Neil

 

[tbtc]

So the short version is:

• TPE lose only 4x2 coach trains instead of nine (after gaining 10x4 coach trains)
• Northern to gain over a dozen four coach EMUs for use in the North West
• All DMUs freed up by electrification appear to be staying in the North West
• So, quite an increase in capacity in the North West

= people in the North West complaining about how hard done by they are

• Blackpool - Manchester Airport sees capacity increased from around 180 seats to around 300 seats on most services

= people in the North West complaining about how hard done by they are

It seems a sensible set of adjustments, in the circumstances, I don't think that there was much more that they could have done better (given how people don't like splitting services) - I've not seen any constructive alternatives in amongst all the grumbling on here.

DRS offering 50 year old plus rolling stock and locos ......

The magic thing about enthusiasts is that if you put some 1980s stock on a service then they'll complain that it's "clapped out" / "rejects" etc etc but if you put something built back in the 1960s or 1970s on then they'll rejoice - I think that some people honestly believe that anything built after Thatcher came to power is rubbish (with the possible exception of the sainted 442s)...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Prepares to be shot...
I believe that SWT 158s mainly run in multiple, and as TPE services currently use trains with 1st class, I believe that 11 Northern 156s should have been transferred to SWT in return for there 158s, and SWT should be told to diagram 158+159 wherever possible, reducing services no longer containing first class.

Do so many people on here travel First Class that that is actually an issue? These services traditionally haven't had First Class for years until the 185s came along. At least since the 1980s when 150s started running on them.

Standard capacity has to be the priority here, IMO. And the 156s will provide that admirably.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems a sensible set of adjustments, in the circumstances, I don't think that there was much more that they could have done better (given how people don't like splitting services) - I've not seen any constructive alternatives in amongst all the grumbling on here.

I agree, I think it is a very sensible short-term answer. (I believe the long-term answer is that Northern will be getting the North West Express routes back for good).

Neil

 

[158756]

I agree, I think it is a very sensible short-term answer. (I believe the long-term answer is that Northern will be getting the North West Express routes back for good).
Neil

It does appear to be the best(/only) solution available right now, but you can understand people on the Fylde being unhappy with longer journeys on lower quality trains, and loss of through trains to Liverpool.(they'll already have a seat for all/most of their journeys).

 

[Starmill]

Again, try fGW in the morning peak from Reading to London, and say that again.

I have no idea what the relevance of this is.

I genuinely consider 4.156 a significant improvement over 3.185

Well, like with your never ending complaining about the sale of Advance tickets, it will not take long to prove you wrong then, will it.