Route restricted tickets into London zones

Status
Not open for further replies.

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
10,277
Hi there

Someone I know of is commuting to zones 5 and 6 from Guildford. Sometimes depending on what they are doing, it's quicker for them to go via Epsom and other times it's quicker via Surbiton.

I was under the impression that a more expensive ticket could be used for a cheaper route but not sure in the case of London travel card zones. Also what is the case if the tickets are the same price, can you use either route.

In the case of Guildford to zones 5 and 6,therr are four options, all with different route restrictions. However the ones via Epsom and Surbiton are the same price.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I actually found a different solution to this but from a stand point I am interested in the regulations on it.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
6,440
Location
Crayford
I'm struggling to find a common destination in zones 5 and 6 accessible via Epsom and Surbiton. Is another travelcard held?
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
10,277
Thanks for replying.

There isn't a common destination. Basically this person needs to visit multiple sites and some are nearer stations on the Epsom to London line, within zones 5 and 6 and others are nearer stations on the Surbiton to London line, within zones 5 and 6.

So some days it makes sense time wise to go via Epsom and other days via Cobham.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,981
On the specific issue of a more expensive route being valid on a cheaper route, AIUI this is by virtual of the excess fare costing nothing and therefore unnecessary. Since season tickets cannot be excessed, this is one argument to say this rule is not applicable to season tickets. I also struggle to find a station which would give you permitted routes via both Epsom and Surbiton, that do not venture beyond the boundary of Zone 5.

On the other hand, I think it may be possible to argue that the rule of a more expensive ticket being valid on a cheaper route applies literally, but then I struggle to persuade myself that the rule can be applied to two different routeings when the destination station is not the same. My head hurts just thinking about it.

For only £2 extra a week, I think your friend would be better off with a ticket to Zones 4-6, as Raynes Park would be undoubtedly valid via either route.
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
10,277
On the specific issue of a more expensive route being valid on a cheaper route, AIUI this is by virtual of the excess fare costing nothing and therefore unnecessary. Since season tickets cannot be excessed, this is one argument to say this rule is not applicable to season tickets. I also struggle to find a station which would give you permitted routes via both Epsom and Surbiton, that do not venture beyond the boundary of Zone 5.

On the other hand, I think it may be possible to argue that the rule of a more expensive ticket being valid on a cheaper route applies literally, but then I struggle to persuade myself that the rule can be applied to two different routeings when the destination station is not the same. My head hurts just thinking about it.

For only £2 extra a week, I think your friend would be better off with a ticket to Zones 4-6, as Raynes Park would be undoubtedly valid via either route.
Thanks for that. I'd not considered zone 4.

That would indeed resolve the issue. I had another option but it wouldn't be required.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
2,606
Location
Connah's Quay
On the specific issue of a more expensive route being valid on a cheaper route, AIUI this is by virtual of the excess fare costing nothing and therefore unnecessary.
I don't think that's quite how it works.

In the NRCOC section F (additional conditions applying only to season tickets), Condition 30 states "The routes you are entitled to take with a Season Ticket are explained in Condition 13".

Condition 13 says "You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in: ... trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide".

Page 2 of the instructions for the National Routeing Guide say "Where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fare routes data that will affect the routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. ... Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies."

No reference is made to season tickets within the National Routeing Guide.

Guildford-Zones 5-6 is equally expensive via Epsom and via Surbiton, so this means that a ticket with either route would be valid for this person's journeys.

If validity on buses isn't important to this person, then a season ticket to Motspur Park would be a cheaper option.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,981
I don't think that's quite how it works.
...

I did acknowledge this argument, in the second part of my post. I just couldn't really be bothered to expand on it as I didn't really have the time.

I can't make my mind up which one is correct, and I don't have any intention to spend ages thinking over it. The first part of my post looks at it from a historical perspective, and the second a literal perspective. I'm sure there will be people willing to argue for both sides.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
The Routeing Guide doesn't deal with zone destinations, it deals with stations. Without knowing the stations involved it is kind of difficult to give an accurate answer, however I would suggest, as a general rule, that if the destination station is different, the journey is potentially not "off route" but actually "off route to a new destination" and those two are treated differently.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,382
Location
Reading
The Travelcard Agreement states:

Out-Boundary Ticket shall mean a ticket issued by an Operator to a passenger for a journey on Railway Services outside the Zones which includes a Travelcard to be used in conjunction with the relevant journey on Railway Services;

The travelcard covers all travel within the zones (as it must) and additionally there is a journey outside the Zones covered by the TSA and the Routeing Guide.

That journey outside the zones is from an origin to a boundary station. The destination "London Zones 5-6" represents all stations within those two zones (in a similar way to that in which "MANCHESTER STNS" on a ticket represents a list of stations in Manchester) but since this journey has to be outside the zones, we only need consider the first station encountered inside the boundary on each railway line, and routes are therefore calculated under the rules set out in the TSA using the Routeing Guide to each possible such station, accepting only those that lie entirely outside the zones.

My reading of the shortest route provision is that there can only be one shortest route for the ticket as a whole, not one for each boundary station, so that only applies to the closest of the available boundary stations and for any other one you're limited to what the Routeing Guide maps give you. (But alternative interpretations may be possible.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So the heart of the issue here is that the routeing guide is necessarily applied separately for each boundary station, and the provision permitting use over routes that are not more expensive lies within each of those separate applications - it's not clear that it is a global provision that can be applied afterwards.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So at the moment, I'm on the side that says that the provision that allows you to use routes where the fare is the same or less is limited in scope to the set of permitted routes to an individual zone boundary station, and assuming each VIA requires different boundary stations then the season tickets should not be considered interchangeable unless the train companies concerned state otherwise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For only £2 extra a week, I think your friend would be better off with a ticket to Zones 4-6, as Raynes Park would be undoubtedly valid via either route.

The boundary stations don't change and there are still three separate routeings to choose between.
 
Last edited:

Paul Kelly

Verified Rep - BR Fares
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,802
Location
Reading
I agree with furlong in that you can't just pick any station within the zones covered by your Travelcard to decide what permitted routes to look up; it really must be the boundary station. This makes the permitted routes for a Travelcard much more consistent and easier to calculate.

But I am not sure that you can't pick any boundary station for applying the shortest route rule. If I understand correctly, to apply that rule properly you wouldn't need a list of all boundary stations on all lines and need to check the mileage from the origin station to all of them in order to determine which was an appropriate boundary station for applying the shortest route rule. I don't think there is such an official list, and the process could get very unwieldy. On the other hand this introduces lots of anomalies with lines that run roughly parallel to each other into London and have no physical connection at their respective London terminals, and where the shortest route by rail could involve travel half-way across the country in the other direction.
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
10,277
The Routeing Guide doesn't deal with zone destinations, it deals with stations. Without knowing the stations involved it is kind of difficult to give an accurate answer, however I would suggest, as a general rule, that if the destination station is different, the journey is potentially not "off route" but actually "off route to a new destination" and those two are treated differently.
Thanks for everyone's replies.

I must apologise. I incorrectly stated it was zones 4 to 5. For one of the journey via Cobham, it's only zone 6.

The stations vary but mostly they would be alighting at Surbiton or Sutton. The bus journey between Sutton and Surbiton isn't exactly short I believe. Not even sure if a direct one exists.

The person doesn't know to far in advance which station will need to be at. Preferably it would be helpful not to have to buy a ticket every day.

Saying all of this they have told me they have sorted something out so I'm now only looking at this from a hyperthepical view point.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

Paul Kelly

Verified Rep - BR Fares
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,802
Location
Reading
Would a season from Farncombe instead of Guildford to London Zones 5-6 do the job? It's £76.20, so a little bit more, but only has an ANY PERMITTED version. I haven't checked if would be via all the variant routes of the Guildford season but I don't see why not.
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
10,277
Would a season from Farncombe instead of Guildford to London Zones 5-6 do the job? It's £76.20, so a little bit more, but only has an ANY PERMITTED version. I haven't checked if would be via all the variant routes of the Guildford season but I don't see why not.
Even though no longer relevant for the person, I will check this out as from looking things up like this I better learn the routing guide and what to check for.

I do know getting on at an intermediate station regularly is allowed on a season ticket even if some staff aren't so sure about people doing that.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top