RSH cheaper than National Rail and Trainline

[deoiub]

Was just looking at a journey and see it for much cheaper on RedSpottedHanky than on Trainline and even National Rail directly.

I know that there are 'buckets' or something for different fare points, and when they sell out, the price moves up to the next price point. However, I thought all of the resellers pulled from the same buckets. Is this not the case? Does RSH get an allocation of tickets from one bucket, and are allowed to sell them at the lower price even after National Rail sells out of that level?

Perhaps it's nothing to do with the buckets at all, but I thought that typically they were all always the same price.

This particular journey is:


FROM: Fareham [FRM]
TO: Nottingham [NOT]
ON: July 25th 11:28
WITH: 16-25 Railcard

Journey returned:
Fareham [FRM] -> Winchester [WIN] 11:55
Winchester [WIN] -> Derby [DBY] 15:06
Derby [DBY] -> Nottingham [NOT] 15:41

One-way

Results:

National Rail: £48.30
Trainline: £48.30
RedspottedHanky: £30.05


Am I missing something about why RedSpottedHanky is offering this for cheaper than others?

 

[island]

Two are pricing the journey as XC & CONNECTIONS and the other is doing AP EMT& CONNECT.

 

[LexyBoy]

Is the route given by RSH exactly the same? I bet XC would love being the connecting TOC on that route!

 

[maniacmartin]

Interesting!
It's not unheard of for the booking engines to get the 'connections' bit wrong so it ends up being what many would consider the main leg of the ticket. There are savings to be had if you can avoid a ticket priced by Cross Country

 

[northwichcat]

I just tried it on RSH and I had to specify 'via Winchester' to get it to show that route and the EMT + Connections Advance fare.

 

[bb21]

Interesting!
It's not unheard of for the booking engines to get the 'connections' bit wrong so it ends up being what many would consider the main leg of the ticket. There are savings to be had if you can avoid a ticket priced by Cross Country

On the contrary, in my experience with Advance fares, quite often you can make big savings if you can find fares priced by CrossCountry, if you know how to find them.

 

[LexyBoy]

Well it depends on finding a ticket with the booked train only being a small segment.

I nice lady at Penzance once found me a very cheap AP ticket to Stroud with the only reserved section Bristol-Gloster.

 

[168lover]

The website I use for my trips is Rail Easy. Normally it is a lot cheaper than the other ticket sites.

 

[dzug2]

The website I use for my trips is Rail Easy. Normally it is a lot cheaper than the other ticket sites.

There is no reason for its ticket prices (for the same trip) to be any different to other sites

 

[Merseysider]

The website I use for my trips is Rail Easy. Normally it is a lot cheaper than the other ticket sites.

With the exception of a scenario like the one this thread is about, Raileasy won't be cheaper at all. Avoid the fees by booking direct with the TOC.

 

[bnm]

The website I use for my trips is Rail Easy. Normally it is a lot cheaper than the other ticket sites.

The underlying ticket will nearly always be the same, when sold by a third party retailer, such as Raileasy.*

But Raileasy add fees for certain card payments and also a postage fee. The total transaction is therefore nearly always more expensive with Raileasy than the same underlying ticket purchased from a retailer who don't add charges. Those that add no charges at all are most train companies and redspottedhanky.com. Also note that if there are any problems with your ticket purchase from Raileasy you will be paying £1.02 a minute to call their Customer Services department's 09 number.

Raileasy. Avoid.


*Some train companies offer a discount on their own fares when purchased online.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

There is no reason for its ticket prices (for the same trip) to be any different to other sites

Thank you.

You can get £24.75 on splitticketing.com for the 11:40.

11:40 - 15:55
4 hours, 15 minutes
Changing at HAVANT, LONDON WATERLOO and LONDON ST PANCRAS INTERNATIONAL
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The underlying ticket will nearly always be the same, when sold by a third party retailer, such as Raileasy.*

But Raileasy add fees for certain card payments and also a postage fee. The total transaction is therefore nearly always more expensive with Raileasy than the same underlying ticket purchased from a retailer who don't add charges. Those that add no charges at all are most train companies and redspottedhanky.com. Also note that if there are any problems with your ticket purchase from Raileasy you will be paying £1.02 a minute to call their Customer Services department's 09 number.

Raileasy. Avoid.


*Some train companies offer a discount on their own fares when purchased online.

You're like a broken record.

Even with the discounted fares they only make available on their sites with splits we quote cheaper prices now than TOC sites.

 

[bnm]

Even with the discounted fares they only make available on their sites with splits we quote cheaper prices now than TOC sites.

Not if you then buy the splits suggested elsewhere. With everyone elsewhere not charging £1.02 for telephone Customer Service.

 

[hangus78]

Thank you.

You can get £24.75 on splitticketing.com for the 11:40.

Even with the discounted fares they only make available on their sites with splits we quote cheaper prices now than TOC sites.

That exact same itinerary and fare is offered on RSH and Eastcoast for the 11:40. You have not really chosen a great example to further your argument that raileasy is somehow special.

 

[All Line Rover]

You're like a broken record.

Even with the discounted fares they only make available on their sites with splits we quote cheaper prices now than TOC sites.

He has a point, though. According to this, you've not been in compliance with the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 for over a month. And you're using an 09 number, which will quickly wipe out any saving made by booking with Raileasy. If that number isn't changed, or withdrawn, soon, a complaint to Trading Standards / Ofcom / Phonepayplus would be in order.

For the sake of transparency, thetrainline and mytrainticket are also in breach. They both use 08 numbers. I'm going to complain about thetrainline as it is an insult that such a large and profitable company is in breach.

 

[Clip]

Thank you.

You can get £24.75 on splitticketing.com for the 11:40.

11:40 - 15:55
4 hours, 15 minutes
Changing at HAVANT, LONDON WATERLOO and LONDON ST PANCRAS INTERNATIONAL
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You're like a broken record.

Even with the discounted fares they only make available on their sites with splits we quote cheaper prices now than TOC sites.

They may be like a broken record but it is important to let the consumer know about these thigns so they can make an informed choice about which ticketing provider they are to use.

I know you are a business but dont throw your toys out the pram when people point out your charges - thats what this forum is for - getting the best fare for the passenger, not to line your pockets.

 

[bnm]

Raileasy is also being disingenuous with it's advertised savings.

Just looked at Bristol to Plymouth and a £30 Advance was offered. Click on this and a green box and footnote tells me "Book the selected journey now and save £8.50. (*Compared to booking an equivalent journey at the station on the day of travel)"

Yes, the Off Peak Single is £38.50, so on the face of it I do save £8.50 versus buying on the day. However if I continue to 'book the selected journey now', pay by credit card and opt for postal delivery of tickets, my actual total is £35.61 (£30 ticket £2.50 booking fee, £1.50 postage, £1.61 credit card fee), a saving of just £2.89 against a totally different and more flexible product. How do I actually save the £8.50 Raileasy are advertising? Truth is I don't. Disingenuous at best, false advertising at worst. Even if I opt to collect my ticket and pay by debit card, the saving is only £6.00, not the advertised £8.50.

So, the advertised 'saving' can never actually be had.

 

[maniacmartin]

The old "Book the selected journey now and save £8.50." trick is used by most of the online vendors. I also consider it to be dishonest, given it is a much less flexible product being sold.

Even allowing for the tickets being different, I also think the fees should be factored into advertised savings.

 

[Merseysider]

The old "Book the selected journey now and save £8.50." trick is used by most of the online vendors. I also consider it to be dishonest, given it is a much less flexible product being sold.

Even allowing for the tickets being different, I also think the fees should be factored into advertised savings.

Agreed.

Surely the fees should be advertised up front so the consumer can make a fully informed decision? There's already leglisation in some countries requiring fees to be made clear for airline tickets up front, rather than just saying "the ticket costs £300" and just before payment you discover another £50 in charges making the actual price £350.

The "You save £43.20" in green is misleading as that figure cannot be saved when one factors in the surcharges.

 

[theshillito]

RailEasy's split ticket finder is nice, but I then just get the tickets from one of the TOC mobile apps to save on fees and to have the collect-on-departure codes at quick access. Plus, TOCs are on Twitter to chat to when something goes wrong. So, that justifies RailEasy's existence for their split ticket finder at least, but there is literally no reason for thetrainline to exist.

Thanks to All Line Rover for pointing out the breaches of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013. Having an 09 number for customer services is downright offensive even without this regulation!

Following that, having an 0845 number is permitted as it's a local rate call on landlines, however I pointed out to some TOCs that most people will want to call from mobiles because they will often be at the station when problems arise. Since then, several TOCs (off the top of my head, Northern Rail and London Midland at least) have moved to standard phone numbers starting with 01/02/03 which are part of phone contracts or standard rate on all phones. This should be the standard for all companies.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

Apologies if I sounded like I was throwing my toys out of the pram (but I wasn't) and I can assure you I have the utmost respect for this Forum and the knowledge here.

There are some very valid points raised about how we display fees and we know we have to change this.

I'm going to sound like a broken record now but on the subject of fees and getting the best prices for the traveller I have been doing some "modelling" recently based on our actual transactions. Using actual bookings with credit/debit card charges, ToD/postal costs, hosting, RSP charges and (very small) staff costs, at 650,000 transactions pa (or £39m of ticket sales) with no fees we'd lose £441K with the £650K/£350K advertising and development license stipulation. Even if you spend £1m on advertising, it's not a lot to grow a business to that size albeit it's tiny compared to TOCs or TTL but you have to start somewhere. Caveat emptor/anyone thinking about getting into rail retailing I say.

As an aside, the genii at the Dept for Business, Innovation and Skills, who have gone even further than the EU with their ban on premium rate numbers in travel, just added to that potential loss by increasing the staff cost. How these bureaucrats reckon this helps innovators (their raison d'etre?), who in the main will be small companies, is beyond me.

We also did some modelling on when TOCs advertise themselves as "retailers" (i.e buy any route/ticket on our site). We estimated a 60p per tranx webTIS cost and an average of 50p per click for paid search on a "smallish" percentage of the bookings and with no fees obviously.

The TOC we looked at is doing around 1.5m of these transactions we reckon or around £90m in "retailer" ticket sales based on our tranx breakdown.

Raileasy will give £50 of free rail travel (that can be booked on RE and excluding fees) to the first person who posts up here what the ticket price has to be according to our model before they start making a profit on these transactions.

The 7 figure losses on the transactions below £xy ticket price are being funded in ticket prices of course so affect everyone who travels on their network. Based on our model over the total 1.5m transactions there was a £4K loss.

What should happen IMO is that retailer type tranx on TOC web sites should have to at least break even. This will reduce TOC costs of retailing which should feed into ticket prices.

That can be done by charging fees for those people who choose to book other TOCs' journeys under £xy on TOC sites (like VAT) or raise the commission level

 

[All Line Rover]

As an aside, the genii at the Dept for Business, Innovation and Skills, who have gone even further than the EU with their ban on premium rate numbers in travel, just added to that potential loss by increasing the staff cost. How these bureaucrats reckon this helps innovators (their raison d'etre?), who in the main will be small companies, is beyond me.

The general principle is that after-sales costs should be factored into the sales price. Businesses should not adopt a "take the money and run" attitude. Charging customers to query or complain about a contract they have already entered into is not acceptable business practice. There is nothing to differentiate the travel sector from almost every other sector to suggest that it deserves an exemption. It is rightly included, especially given the appaling behaviour of the airline industry.

The Consumer Contracts Regulations do not oblige businesses to offer telephone support. You are free to do the same as takethetrain - that is, only offer email and postal support. That might put off certain customers, but at least consumers are able to make an informed decision before contracting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...having an 0845 number is permitted as it's a local rate call on landlines, however I pointed out to some TOCs that most people will want to call from mobiles because they will often be at the station when problems arise. Since then, several TOCs (off the top of my head, Northern Rail and London Midland at least) have moved to standard phone numbers starting with 01/02/03 which are part of phone contracts or standard rate on all phones. This should be the standard for all companies.

0845 numbers are not really local rate and Ofcom know it. Next year (2015) there are going to be substantial changes to the 08 number spectrum and the display of charges for such numbers, and from what I gather the 'local rate' definition will either be scrapped or substantially changed.

It is notable that the Consumer Contracts Regulations mention 'basic rate', not 'local rate'. 'Basic rate' excludes 08x numbers (including 0800 numbers until mid-2015 when they will be made free from mobile mobiles). That is why all the TOCs have been switching to 01/02/03 numbers!

 

[theshillito]

0845 numbers are not really local rate and Ofcom know it. Next year (2015) there are going to be substantial changes to the 08 number spectrum and the display of charges for such numbers, and from what I gather the 'local rate' definition will either be scrapped or substantially changed.

It is notable that the Consumer Contracts Regulations mention 'basic rate', not 'local rate'. 'Basic rate' excludes 08x numbers (including 0800 numbers until mid-2015 when they will be made free from mobile mobiles). That is why all the TOCs have been switching to 01/02/03 numbers!

Oh! This is news to me. That's gonna cause some confusion when 0845 no longer means local rate. Guess it'll just be "low rate" from then. As for 0800, new contracts on the Three network already let you call 0800 numbers for free (not old contracts like mine, but I get unlimited tethering instead) but interesting that other networks will have to follow suit.

 

[All Line Rover]

Oh! This is news to me. That's gonna cause some confusion when 0845 no longer means local rate. Guess it'll just be "low rate" from then. As for 0800, new contracts on the Three network already let you call 0800 numbers for free (not old contracts like mine, but I get unlimited tethering instead) but interesting that other networks will have to follow suit.

According to this article (near the bottom) Ofcom has not supported the use of the terms 'local rate' and 'national rate' since July 2004!

The June 2015 changes are outlined here. I too am on The One Plan. I contacted Ofcom this afternoon and they told me that their changes will have retrospective effect - all existing mobile phone contracts will have to remove charges for 0800 numbers from 26 June 2015. That's good news for me as I have no intention to leave Three and lose the unlimited tethering.

 

[Merseysider]

Mike - I'll have a look at the figures you've quoted.

Has Raileasy launched a loyalty scheme for its customers? Maybe focus being on those who spend $$$

Could more specific and streamlined search terms for Adwords be used to decrease the necessary ppc budget?

Perhaps the premium rate number could be used for "telesales" rather than customer service.

For splitticketing what would the costs associated with consumer-generated advertising and/or industry based exposure (ie posters on trains, at stations etc) be?

There's hundreds of ways to reduce overheads but excessively expensive phone lines isn't one I agree with.

 

[Sacro]

According to this article (near the bottom) Ofcom has not supported the use of the terms 'local rate' and 'national rate' since July 2004!

Indeed, as someone who grew up in Hull, with Kingston Communications rather than British Telecom, our 'local rate' was always 5.5p + VAT per call, no matter how long it lasted, it was quite a shock to get 1p per minute charges to numbers that considered themselves 'local'.

 

[Mike@Raileasy]

Mike - I'll have a look at the figures you've quoted.

Has Raileasy launched a loyalty scheme for its customers? Maybe focus being on those who spend $$$

Could more specific and streamlined search terms for Adwords be used to decrease the necessary ppc budget?

Perhaps the premium rate number could be used for "telesales" rather than customer service.

For splitticketing what would the costs associated with consumer-generated advertising and/or industry based exposure (ie posters on trains, at stations etc) be?

There's hundreds of ways to reduce overheads but excessively expensive phone lines isn't one I agree with.

Hi JakeF,

Thanks for this. The 0906 number is used for telesales, we have a 0870 one if customers get into trouble with ToD.

It sounds like you know a lot about paid search. I was talking about TOCs' paid search costs when they advertise themselves as retailers under generic terms such as "cheap train tickets". The more companies advertising, the more people shop around which puts up cost per acquisition rates. At any time there can be a few retailers, a couple of TOCs and a few other affiliates etc bidding on terms like that. Customers who buy using paid search are also less loyal, they like checking things out.

The issue with split ticketing is creating awareness about it with the general public. We need to do that and we will hopefully over time. But as for advertising at stations etc we tried that (not for splits though) but the TOC told the contractor to take the ads down pdq. Hey ho

 

[bnm]

If you wish to contact Raileasy for comments, complaints, suggestions, general enquiries or for information on your booking, you can reach one of our friendly customer service team through...

By Phone
For cancellations, amendments and general journey planning information please contact our UK based call centre on 0906 2000 500 charged at £1.02 a minute.

http://www.raileasy.co.uk/contact-us

That looks to me like a help line for "the purpose of consumers contacting the trader by telephone in relation to contracts entered into" on a no longer allowed premium rate number. When will Raileasy stop using it? I suspect it'll only be when Ofcom force them to. There really should be a financial penalty for each day past the deadline a business continues to use a number no longer allowed for by the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. I suppose Ofcom could force any trader to reimburse call charges above the basic rate as that is explicity allowed for in the legislation. I doubt they'll do that though so it will be up to each individual who is overcharged to claim back the money as is their contractual right.

So, I urge anyone who has called Raileasy after making a ticket purchase after 14th June 2014 to write to them and claim a refund on the call charges above the basic rate. Remember, even the 0870 number available after a transaction is completed does not comply with the regulations.

 

[Merseysider]

Hi JakeF,

Thanks for this. The 0906 number is used for telesales, we have a 0870 one if customers get into trouble with ToD.

It sounds like you know a lot about paid search. I was talking about TOCs' paid search costs when they advertise themselves as retailers under generic terms such as "cheap train tickets". The more companies advertising, the more people shop around which puts up cost per acquisition rates. At any time there can be a few retailers, a couple of TOCs and a few other affiliates etc bidding on terms like that. Customers who buy using paid search are also less loyal, they like checking things out.

The issue with split ticketing is creating awareness about it with the general public. We need to do that and we will hopefully over time. But as for advertising at stations etc we tried that (not for splits though) but the TOC told the contractor to take the ads down pdq. Hey ho

I've worked in sales myself which meant paid search and the like was part and parcel of the job. Interestingly enough, Raileasy offers a local rate number for those who wish to complain about the premium rate number

Anyway - I'm not after the £50 - I just had nothing better to do.

All figures are annual figures unless indicated otherwise.
There may be an error or two but:
P&P costs not included as RE charge (£1.50) offsets cost.
Income from premium rate phone number(s) not included as this would be needed to offset tax by HMRC and the extent of these two factors remains unknown.
Cost of work nights out not included in workings.

£39,000,000 / 650,000 ticket sales = £60 avg ticket.
5% commission thereof = £3/ticket
£3 commission x 650,000 = £1,950,000
+ £2.50 booking fee x 650,000 = £1,625,000
= £3,575,000

~10 staff x £10/hr = £100/hr
£100 x 89 hours / week = £8,900/wk
x 50 weeks = £445,000

£3,575,000
-£445,000
=£3,130,000

650,000 tickets (50% sent for TOD) = 325,000
325,000 x 0.60 = £195,000 in TOD fees paid out by RE

£3,130,000
-£195,000
=£2,935,000

7.5% of sales via PPC = 48,750 sales
48,750 x £0.50 = £24,375

RSP fees: Licensed data core = £5,180
Fares/Timetables/RG = £14,500
web hosting = £1,000

24,375 + 14,500 + 5,180 + 1,000 = £45,055

£2,935,000
-£45,055
=£2,889,945

Assuming 62.5% bookings debit = 406,250
Assuming 37.5% bookings credit = 243,750

debit charges RE must pay = (406,250 x £0.08) = £32,500
credit charges RE must pay = ((243,750 x 60) x 1% fee) = £146,250
(total = £178,750)

£2,889,945 - £178,750 = £2,711,195
-ADV/DEV licensing etc = £1,711,195

Redundancy pay = 10 staff x 4 weeks x £8,900/wk = £356,000

£1,711,195
-£356,000
=£1,355,195

Holding company Ferries Trains Planes LTD has liabilities in excess of £1,001,500

Leaving £353,695 to play around with. Allowing a 15.5% margin of error, this figure could be as low as £298,870 or as high as £408,518.

With this in mind, with £353,695 as a ballpark figure, we divide this by £39,000,000 to find the percentile. This turns out to be 0.907% (to three decimal places).

So - if the average ticket price was to decrease from £60 by just 1%, Raileasy would barely be above water.

Thus, the booking fee must be increased at a ratio of at least 10:9 for every penny the average ticket price sold by Raileasy drops below £60 in order to break even.

With the booking fee at 5/6 of the commission RE receives from the average ticket sale, (£2.50 vs £3.00) an increase in the booking fee by 20% would be needed to offset a 16.6% decrease in sales.

So as you can see, even if the precise figures are incorrect in some way, the start-up costs associated with the business alongside fees and charges Raileasy itself must pay means booking fees are strictly vital to the company's existence.

 

[maniacmartin]

A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train
Company whose trains you have the right to use. Where the company selling you the
ticket is not one of the Train Companies on whose services you are travelling, the seller
is acting as agent for the Train Company or Companies in whose trains you are entitled to
travel.

Does this mean I can buy a ticket from Raileasy, have to pay the premium call charge for whatever reason (e.g. ToD failur), then as my contract is with the TOC, claim the charges back from the TOC under this new legisklation?