Rugby - Leicester suggestion

[A0wen]

More crayonista pipe dreams, now being peddled by a local news website......

Looks like another wheeze to spend £ 1bn without creating anything vaguely useful.

New railway stations in plan to re-open forgotten line from Northampton

The old Leicester to Northampton line was a victim of the Beeching cuts

www.northantslive.news

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Isn't there already a route open between Rugby and Northampton?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Isn't there already a route open between Rugby and Northampton?

Yes. But this proposal - such as it is - talks about opening Rugby to near Leicester.

The report claims it is about reopening 'the old' Northampton to Leicester line.

Unfortunately this can't be reopened, as it never existed in the first place. So I hope that's a journalist's error, and not what the 14-year old rail campaigner said, otherwise he should stay a few more years in school and learn about the former rail routes.

It looks as though he's proposing to use a section of the former MR out of Rugby, then switch to the GC trackbed to serve Lutterworth, then use a new connection to the Leicester-Nuneaton route to access Leicester.

It will, of course, never happen. Although I personally lament the loss of the old MR route Rugby - Wigston. Today, either that, or the Northampton - Mkt Harboro routes would be excellent to improve connectivity in this region.

 

[A0wen]

Yes. But this proposal - such as it is - talks about opening Rugby to near Leicester.

The report claims it is about reopening 'the old' Northampton to Leicester line.

Unfortunately this can't be reopened, as it never existed in the first place. So I hope that's a journalist's error, and not what the 14-year old rail campaigner said, otherwise he should stay a few more years in school and learn about the former rail routes.

It looks as though he's proposing to use a section of the former MR out of Rugby, then switch to the GC trackbed to serve Lutterworth, then use a new connection to the Leicester-Nuneaton route to access Leicester.

It will, of course, never happen. Although I personally lament the loss of the old MR route Rugby - Wigston. Today, either that, or the Northampton - Mkt Harboro routes would be excellent to improve connectivity in this region.

The "journalism" in it is laughably poor.

BIB - what "connectivity" do you think is missing ? If you're going to say Leicester to Northampton, then I'll contest that. Having lived in the area 2 decades, I've yet to meet anyone who commuted to Leicester regularly. Milton Keynes, Coventry, London or Birmingham - all yes. Oxford even. But not Leicester.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes. But this proposal - such as it is - talks about opening Rugby to near Leicester.

The report claims it is about reopening 'the old' Northampton to Leicester line.

Unfortunately this can't be reopened, as it never existed in the first place.

Thanks for clarifying. Noted that the map on the 'NorthantsLive' webpage shows the Rugby to Northampton section in the same colour crayon as Leicester to Rugby.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The enthusiastic and polite young campaigner in question was on this very forum a few months back: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/campaigning-for-a-railway-line-who-to-contact.210510/

 

[The Planner]

The enthusiastic and polite young campaigner in question was on this very forum a few months back: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/campaigning-for-a-railway-line-who-to-contact.210510/

Fair play to the lad for getting some media coverage, especially since he clearly has gone to the local MP too who has listened.

 

[A0wen]

Fair play to the lad for getting some media coverage, especially since he clearly has gone to the local MP too who has listened.

The media ought to be scrutinising stories, not just reprinting press releases though.

And the local MP's comments are laughable. If he were my MP I'd be writing to him saying 'WTF are you on about' (and politically I'm sympathetic to his side).

 

[InTheEastMids]

OK, it's probably not high on the priority list, but admire the drive of the proposer to even get anyone to talk about it.
Certainly beats sitting on a forum moaning about the state of the railway, doesn't it?

Also, by testing ideas via scrutiny, the idea can itself be improved.

Some good points
- Magna Park could be connected, and have an intermodal terminal (it's the size of DIRFT so surely some intermodal traffic?)
- rail service to Lutterworth, which will grow significantly in coming 10-20y, and maybe other places not served by the railway
- Improved connectivity for Leicester & Northampton, which both have significant traffic issues

However, if the basic idea is about East-Mids to Northampton/MK connectivity, then Harborough-Northampton looks like it'd be shorter and faster.
If the real issue is Magna park, then simply build a freight spur
If the real issue is traffic in Leicester and/or Northampton then maybe other public transport is the answer?

So my feedback is that the idea needs a bit more focus about the problems it'll solve

Secondly it needs to be based on 21st century needs, and so only use old alignments if that's convenient. This feels like it's trying to do too much with 19th century railways.

 

[A0wen]

OK, it's probably not high on the priority list, but admire the drive of the proposer to even get anyone to talk about it.
Certainly beats sitting on a forum moaning about the state of the railway, doesn't it?

Also, by testing ideas via scrutiny, the idea can itself be improved.

Some good points
- Magna Park could be connected, and have an intermodal terminal (it's the size of DIRFT so surely some intermodal traffic?)
- rail service to Lutterworth, which will grow significantly in coming 10-20y, and maybe other places not served by the railway
- Improved connectivity for Leicester & Northampton, which both have significant traffic issues

However, if the basic idea is about East-Mids to Northampton/MK connectivity, then Harborough-Northampton looks like it'd be shorter and faster.
If the real issue is Magna park, then simply build a freight spur
If the real issue is traffic in Leicester and/or Northampton then maybe other public transport is the answer?

So my feedback is that the idea needs a bit more focus about the problems it'll solve

Secondly it needs to be based on 21st century needs, and so only use old alignments if that's convenient. This feels like it's trying to do too much with 19th century railways.

The big difference between Magna Park and DIRFT is their age - MP dates from the late 80s / early 90s. DIRFT was late 90s.

Magna Park has never been rail connected so the whole design and layout is, rightly or wrongly, geared to road access. DIRFT on the other hand was designed to have rail access from Day 1.

This means the kind of use for MPs warehousing is quite different to that of DIRFTs. Disclosure: I've been involved with 2 companies, one which had a site on MP and one with a site on DIRFT.

 

[NoRoute]

BIB - what "connectivity" do you think is missing ? If you're going to say Leicester to Northampton, then I'll contest that. Having lived in the area 2 decades, I've yet to meet anyone who commuted to Leicester regularly. Milton Keynes, Coventry, London or Birmingham - all yes. Oxford even. But not Leicester.

And what about all the towns and cities north of Leicester; Loughborough, Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield and all the other destinations it opens up by accessing connecting services at Nottingham and Derby.

Given the size of Milton Keynes and Northampton its surprising how poor their rail connections are if you want to travel North, and vice-versa for anyone heading South trying to get to Northampton and Milton Keynes.

 

[30907]

And what about all the towns and cities north of Leicester; Loughborough, Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield and all the other destinations it opens up by accessing connecting services at Nottingham and Derby.

Given the size of Milton Keynes and Northampton its surprising how poor their rail connections are if you want to travel North, and vice-versa for anyone heading South trying to get to Northampton and Milton Keynes.

Most of those - and everywhere beyond - have a decent alternative route via Tamworth, though with an extra change. Loughborough and possibly Nottingham are exceptions.

 

[NoRoute]

Most of those - and everywhere beyond - have a decent alternative route via Tamworth, though with an extra change. Loughborough and possibly Nottingham are exceptions.

I have to beg to differ, yes you can get there but they're not a decent alternative because the journey times are typically very long with delays for changing trains and compare poorly with driving up or down the M1. Realistically, no one is going to regularly travel by train between Northampton or Milton Keynes to any of those destinations with the current routes because currently it's such a poor alternative to taking the M1.

Northampton to Nottingham, ~60 miles on the M1 around an hour with some delays for traffic; 2+ hour by train, even worse with current services.
Northampton to Leicester, ~40 miles on the M1, under an hour, typically at least 1hr 30 by train and very sensitive to when you travel, delays for changing trains etc.
Similar times for Milton Keynes because of the faster service upto Tamworth.

Given the size of Milton Keynes and Northampton (approaching 500,000 people in total) and the economic growth along the M1 corridor, it makes no sense to have a rail network without a North-South route to link them to the major towns and cities directly north. If the rail network was being designed today, you wouldn't connect Leicester, Nottingham and Derby just to Kettering and Wellingborough, you'd connect them to Northampton and Milton Keynes.

 

[A0wen]

I have to beg to differ, yes you can get there but they're not a decent alternative because the journey times are typically very long with delays for changing trains and compare poorly with driving up or down the M1. Realistically, no one is going to regularly travel by train between Northampton or Milton Keynes to any of those destinations with the current routes because currently it's such a poor alternative to taking the M1.

Northampton to Nottingham, ~60 miles on the M1 around an hour with some delays for traffic; 2+ hour by train, even worse with current services.
Northampton to Leicester, ~40 miles on the M1, under an hour, typically at least 1hr 30 by train and very sensitive to when you travel, delays for changing trains etc.
Similar times for Milton Keynes because of the faster service upto Tamworth.

Given the size of Milton Keynes and Northampton (approaching 500,000 people in total) and the economic growth along the M1 corridor, it makes no sense to have a rail network without a North-South route to link them to the major towns and cities directly north. If the rail network was being designed today, you wouldn't connect Leicester, Nottingham and Derby just to Kettering and Wellingborough, you'd connect them to Northampton and Milton Keynes.

But there *isn't the demand* for travel between Northampton and Leicester / Nottingham.

I've lived in Northampton for nearly 2 decades, in that time I've met people who've commuted to Milton Keynes, Coventry, Rugby, Birmingham, London and even Oxford, but never Leicester. In that time I've travelled to Leicester once on business and a couple of times to the GCR or the Space Centre. Whereas I've been to London or Birmingham countless times and have worked in MK most if that time.

This scheme would cost £1bn and doesn't have a viable business case.

And good luck with doing Northampton - Nottingham in 60 mins on the M1. You can just about get to East Mids Airport in 50 mins. Google maps reckons from my house in Northampton to Nottingham station is 1h 20m. MK will be another 30 mins on that.

Most people in Northampton who wanted to get the train to Nottingham would drive 20 mins to either Wellingboro or Kettering. And for those who don't drive the X4 takes 30 mins to Wellingboro. And Wellingboro - Nottingham takes 60 mins.

The MK area will have a link to the Midland Mainline when EWR is upgraded - 30 mins to Bedford.

 

[NoRoute]

But there *isn't the demand* for travel between Northampton and Leicester / Nottingham.

I've lived in Northampton for nearly 2 decades, in that time I've met people who've commuted to Milton Keynes, Coventry, Rugby, Birmingham, London and even Oxford, but never Leicester. In that time I've travelled to Leicester once on business and a couple of times to the GCR or the Space Centre. WherecI've been to London or Birmingham countless times and have worked in MK most if that time.

This scheme would cost £1bn and doesn't have a viable business case.

You focus on Northampton and I'd agree that passenger volumes to Northampton alone wouldn't justify it, but a rail link doesn't just benefit the two stations at each end, it allows services to the stations beyond the link at either end, so Milton Keynes, Bletchley, Hemel Hempstead, Watford and then all the towns and cities north of Leicester; Loughborough, Nottingham, Derby. When you put together all of the towns and cities which would benefit from a service enabled by a route between Northampton and Leicester, I think there would be a strong case.

Basically it allows a rail service between the cities and towns along the East Midlands M1 corridor and I don't think anyone would dispute the demand for travel along that route, I think it's more surprising there aren't rail services along this route already. A real speculative idea would be a rail service along the M1 corridor, start at Leeds and stop at all the major towns and cities along the M1.

That said, I'm not sure about this proposed route, it looks difficult, I think the Northampton to Market Harborough route is probably more likely if it does ever happen.

 

[A0wen]

You focus on Northampton and I'd agree that passenger volumes to Northampton alone wouldn't justify it, but a rail link doesn't just benefit the two stations at each end, it allows services to the stations beyond the link at either end, so Milton Keynes, Bletchley, Hemel Hempstead, Watford and then all the towns and cities north of Leicester; Loughborough, Nottingham, Derby. When you put together all of the towns and cities which would benefit from a service enabled by a route between Northampton and Leicester, I think there would be a strong case.

Basically it allows a rail service between the cities and towns along the East Midlands M1 corridor and I don't think anyone would dispute the demand for travel along that route, I think it's more surprising there aren't rail services along this route already. A real speculative idea would be a rail service along the M1 corridor, start at Leeds and stop at all the major towns and cities along the M1.

That said, I'm not sure about this proposed route, it looks difficult, I think the Northampton to Market Harborough route is probably more likely if it does ever happen.

If you think linking Hemel Hempstead to Leicester makes a business case, then you haven't a clue about writing Business Cases.

Hemel doesn't have a direct train service to Birmingham yet that's on the same line and is the UK's second largest city.

Northampton - Harborough is dead and never coming back. It serves nowhere significant en route and the formation in Harborough has completely gone. Add in the MML betwenn Leicester and London is pretty much at capacity.

 

[NoRoute]

If you think linking Hemel Hempstead to Leicester makes a business case, then you haven't a clue about writing Business Cases.

Hemel doesn't have a direct train service to Birmingham yet that's on the same line and is the UK's second largest city.

Northampton - Harborough is dead and never coming back. It serves nowhere significant en route and the formation in Harborough has completely gone. Add in the MML betwenn Leicester and London is pretty much at capacity.

Well there were reports that Network Rail were examining the route last year and a recent Network Rail capacity study for Leicester station makes reference to a potential Northampton to Nottingham service. So while the odds are still slim, I'm not sure it's as dead as you think.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hemel doesn't have a direct train service to Birmingham yet that's on the same line and is the UK's second largest city.

There are (a token) two direct trains between Hemel Hempstead and Birmingham New Street on a weekday (at 0606 and at 0644) plus seven more on both Saturdays and Sundays, but otherwise your point is a valid one.

(Not much better in the reverse direction, four on a weekday, six on a Saturday and five on Sundays).

 

[A0wen]

Well there were reports that Network Rail were examining the route last year and a recent Network Rail capacity study for Leicester station makes reference to a potential Northampton to Nottingham service. So while the odds are still slim, I'm not sure it's as dead as you think.

Provide evidence that it was NR that were actually looking at it and not some half-baked pressure group who hold no sway or one of the QUANGOs which talk alot but have fewer delivery responsibilities than your local milkman.

As I said, at Harborough the formation is gone, you can add in NR spent *alot* of money straightening the platforms at MH which took out the formation in the station area. It also doesn't have a viable business case and that route doesn't serve anywhere en route, at least nowhere that justifies a station.

Brixworth is about the only place on the line, that's only 5000 people and none of the old stations on the line were in the villages they were named after - Brixworth's for example was about 1.5 miles away at the bottom of a steep hill - Google Earth reckons its a 30 minute walk and knowing the area I can believe that.

It would be cheaper than the mad Rugby - Leicester suggestion, but not by much. And you'd also have to replace the Brampton Way - ironically as the Brampton Way that line probably gets more people usimg it than it ever did as an active raiway.

 

[NoRoute]

Local news report here, mentions Network Rail carrying out a feasibility study

New Fund Could Boost Idea To Re-Open Railway

The idea to re-open the railway between Market Harborough and Northampton could be given a boost thanks to a new government fund. It’s been announced today that £500m is being made available to investigate and develop plans to reinstate old lines across the country. Network Rail is continuing

harboroughfm.co.uk

Work to install lighting to the tunnels stopped, argued because there's a possibility of re-opening

Lighting ruled out at disused former railway tunnel in Kelmarsh

Councillors have ruled out making improvements to the cycling route at Kelmarsh Tunnel as it would be ‘unwise and premature’ due to the potential reopening of a railway line.

www.northamptonchron.co.uk

Network Rail Leicester Area Strategy paper, which has some references to a Northampton to Nottingham service in some of the potential future scenarios

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Leicester-Area-Strategic-Advice-2021.pdf

As a said, I think the chances of it being reopened are slim, even more so given the collapse in passenger numbers and the financial black hole the rail network faces post- Covid, but the idea of a rail route linking Northampton to Leicester, evidently cannot be that outlandish if Network Rail consider it as a scenario.

 

[A0wen]

Local news report here, mentions Network Rail carrying out a feasibility study

New Fund Could Boost Idea To Re-Open Railway

The idea to re-open the railway between Market Harborough and Northampton could be given a boost thanks to a new government fund. It’s been announced today that £500m is being made available to investigate and develop plans to reinstate old lines across the country. Network Rail is continuing

harboroughfm.co.uk

Work to install lighting to the tunnels stopped, argued because there's a possibility of re-opening

Lighting ruled out at disused former railway tunnel in Kelmarsh

Councillors have ruled out making improvements to the cycling route at Kelmarsh Tunnel as it would be ‘unwise and premature’ due to the potential reopening of a railway line.

www.northamptonchron.co.uk

Network Rail Leicester Area Strategy paper, which has some references to a Northampton to Nottingham service in some of the potential future scenarios

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Leicester-Area-Strategic-Advice-2021.pdf

As a said, I think the chances of it being reopened are slim, even more so given the collapse in passenger numbers and the financial black hole the rail network faces post- Covid, but the idea of a rail route linking Northampton to Leicester, evidently cannot be that outlandish if Network Rail consider it as a scenario.

So what does the Network Rail doc *actually* say - let's have a look:

'Northampton' actually appears 4 times:

First under 'Train service scenarios explored', along with Bedford - Leeds, and only under Scenario 3. The least likely of the scenarios and the only increment between Scenario 2 and Scenario 3 - Scenario 2 also contains more realistic stuff like 2 tph Birmingham - Leicester and Coventry - Nottingham / Coventry - Derby.

Second in the section 'Future Train Services' where it states: "Many other aspirational proposals exist for additional services in the Leicester area, including the potential to restore the line between Northampton and Market Harborough, supported by organisations such as England’s Economic Heartland. These additional services will place additional stress on the infrastructure in the study area as they are not currently included in the baseline timetable."

Key words here are aspirational and potential. Not that anything is being done. And the final sentence highlights the problem - these will cause problems to the existing services.

Third - a re-play of the table above.

Lastly under recommendations "On a congested railway, there are no shortage of competing demands for capacity, and it is not expected that progression of options would prove abortive, especially because further known aspirations, such as the Ivanhoe Line proposals or the reopening of the railway between Market Harborough to Northampton would also benefit from these recommendations. Furthermore, it is recommended that interventions in the study area take account of other projects to avoid abortive or corrective work being undertaken, and to maximise the benefits for passenger and freight customers"

So this is basically saying, take these things into account when undertaking the study and don't do anything which could preclude them. This is good practice in any project - to look to ensure you don't design solutions that preclude future changes, not that these future changes *will* happen, merely that you don't prevent them.

So nowhere does NR say it's looking at reinstatement of Northampton - Harborough beyond a simple, don't do anything which might stop it happening.

The Harborough FM news story says nothing useful

The Northampton Chron one shows the sheer stupidity of some councillors - they've gone against the recommended advice of the council officers. That said it's very much a last gasp for Daventry District council because it disappears imminently as part of the local government re-org in Northants - so there's every chance it will re-appear very soon under West Northants Council who may actually choose to approve it.

 

[30907]

I have to beg to differ, yes you can get there but they're not a decent alternative because the journey times are typically very long with delays for changing trains and compare poorly with driving up or down the M1. Realistically, no one is going to regularly travel by train between Northampton or Milton Keynes to any of those destinations with the current routes because currently it's such a poor alternative to taking the M1.

Northampton to Nottingham, ~60 miles on the M1 around an hour with some delays for traffic; 2+ hour by train, even worse with current services.
Northampton to Leicester, ~40 miles on the M1, under an hour, typically at least 1hr 30 by train and very sensitive to when you travel, delays for changing trains etc.
Similar times for Milton Keynes because of the faster service upto Tamworth.

That's why I excluded Loughborough and Nottingham from my comment about places North of Leicester.
Incidentally, with a reasonable connection at Nuneaton, MKC-LEI is about 70 minutes, which would be competitive with the M1 - how about a South to East curve at Nuneaton (along with the connection from the Coventry line, of course)

 

[InTheEastMids]

So what does the Network Rail doc *actually* say - let's have a look:

In support of this, I think a narrative of how we got here is helpful..

The event that started this was the local strategy consultation by the embryonic West Northants Unitary Authority in August 2019, which asked the question:
20. Should the plan consider the potential to deliver the Northampton Northern Orbital [Road] and North-South Rail as described above?
Source: https://westnorthantsplan.inconsult.uk/gf2.ti/f/1046082/54068613.1/PDF/-/WNSP_FINAL_smaller_003.pdf
I haven't been able to find a final, post-consultation version of this plan, so it's not clear what, if any action the new Unitary Authority will take. I expect we'll find out sometime after West Northants goes live next month.

This then got picked up by the local MP who asked Grant Shapps about it in Transport Questions on 24th October
Source: Rail Performance - Thursday 24 October 2019 - Hansard - UK Parliament
And this is where the media get interested, despite a reply from Shapps that whilst 'very supportive' is also decidedly non-committal.

Then, the Restoring Your Railways Fund was announced in early 2020, leading to more speculation that provides content for regional/local news
However, it's worth pointing out that there was no application in RYR Rounds 1,2 or 3
(Round 3 is currently being assessed, so let's wait and see, but have seen nothing to suggest an application has been made)
EDIT - update as full list of RYR proposals is available

Since Shapps has mentioned it in parliament, then NR can't really ignore it in their Leicester Strategic Advice document. So as Aowen says,

So nowhere does NR say it's looking at reinstatement of Northampton - Harborough beyond a simple, don't do anything which might stop it happening.

Only other point worth mentioning is that Englands Economic Heartland (EEH) may also look at this as one of its connectivity studies, but the relevant ones have not started, but I really hope will be interesting and find some strong business cases for new rail.
Connectivity Studies - England's Economic Heartland
Their passenger study by NR is interesting and damning about today's train service to Northampton (but it's not in scope to propose improvements).
Passenger_Rail_Study_Phase_One.pdf (eeh-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com)

EWR obviously doesn't help the business case, but HS2 probably damages it also - the release of WCML paths could allow more trains MK/Npton to Nuneaton/Tamworth, improving connectivity to the East Midlands.

In summary - there's no concrete evidence that reopening is anything more than a glint in the eye of the planning team at the West Northants Joint Planning Unit.

Which is a shame, it'd be quite useful for me... but therein lies the danger of creating/assuming/wishing the business case (or lack of it) based on personal experience or sentiment.

The actual subject of this thread is at an earlier stage, it doesn't even have West Northants Council interested yet
EDIT - Although obviously let's see what happens to its RYR proposal.

 

[NoRoute]

The Harborough FM news story says nothing useful

No, it says:

Network Rail is continuing to conduct a feasibility study into re-opening the 14 mile route, which shut in 1981, and was then converted into the Brampton Valley Way.

And in another article from late 2019 they included a quote from Network Rail confirming it is conducting a feasibility study of the Northampton to Market Harborough route:

A Network Rail spokesman told Hfm: “We are carrying out a high-level feasibility study on the route to inform funders where there may be a potential business case for re-instating the route, as part of England’s Economic Heartland’s wider transport strategy.”

Government Backing To Re-Open Railway

The Transport Secretary says he is ‘very supportive’ of re-opening the railway line from Market Harborough to Northampton. It was revealed earlier this month the idea is being looked into and Network Rail is now carrying out a 'high-level feasibility' study to see if there would be a business cas

harboroughfm.co.uk

Now clearly that's a long way from re-opening the route, but the fact that it is being considering by agencies and that Network Rail are carrying out a feasibility study on the route would suggest there's some interest in the idea. Of course that said, these reports and studies are from late 2019 and early 2020 before the economic situation for the railways sharply deteriorated to its current precarious state.

 

[zwk500]

Now clearly that's a long way from re-opening the route, but the fact that it is being considering by agencies and that Network Rail are carrying out a feasibility study on the route would suggest there's some interest in the idea. Of course that said, these reports and studies are from late 2019 and early 2020 before the economic situation for the railways sharply deteriorated to its current precarious state.

A vast number of these studies are actually undertaken purely to demonstrate the lack of feasibility of a project. A high-level study suggests whoever's found the money to commission NR hasn't found much, and doesn't expect a very positive answer.

The transport secretary being 'very supportive' of re-opening is worth exactly nothing in terms of real-world money or progress. And NR saying their objective is 'to inform funders where they may be a potential business case' suggests that the proposal current doesn't have any business case at all.