TOCDriver
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At the end of the day, the country is becoming over populated - you can only fit so much into a space before it breaks
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Rugby World Cup Problems (Including problems at Manchester Piccadilly in evening)
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Took a tram from MediaCityUK to Piccadilly at around 17:25 this evening. I'd say around 100 people were left on the platform. Not sure how many others were left behind at other stations along the route, couldn't see from where I was standing. Was packed, doors jamming where people couldn't fit it. Everyone was literally travelling all the way from MCU to Piccadilly. Took around 25 minutes to complete the journey.
That's certainly the view of the public. Had a brief conversation with a young lady on a XC service out of Piccadilly this evening who was complaining about the lack of seats and how she believed the reason for no seats was down to it bringing in no extra revenue for XC.
I took the 0900 (0800 cancelled at BRI due to a fatality) from BRI to MAN today and that was packed with a fair few football fans. I was standing/sitting on the vestibule floor between BRI and BHM, and others were standing between BHM and MAN. The TM apologised over the PA for the overcrowding and explained about the previous cancelled service and the sporting events in the city today. He also apologised to me personally when he saw me standing.
The TM on the return service (1805 out of Piccadilly) also apologised for the overcrowding on this service on the PA. I was standing for about 40 minutes until the TM was available to remove a person from my reserved seat. Well I say standing but the luggage rack was empty so I sat on that.
Manchester77
Established Member
Metrolink operated specials terminating at Old Trafford which were rammed. See this picture: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=109298045&postcount=28324
Don't think any doubles ran along the East Manchester Line although it would have helped (however there was an engineering possession at Queens Road so they couldn't just get a double out in the normal way if needed!)
Surely northern could hire those off lease 317s - there's nine - take out one which is the demonstrator and is probably going to GA(?) and you have 8 EMUs. If they start the wheel moving say in December could they have the depot staff and train staff trained and familiar enough to have some in service by May/June allowing DMUs to be freed to operate services which will be busier due to TPE services leaving/journeys fully under the wires (Hazel Grove services).
Don't think any doubles ran along the East Manchester Line although it would have helped (however there was an engineering possession at Queens Road so they couldn't just get a double out in the normal way if needed!)
Surely northern could hire those off lease 317s - there's nine - take out one which is the demonstrator and is probably going to GA(?) and you have 8 EMUs. If they start the wheel moving say in December could they have the depot staff and train staff trained and familiar enough to have some in service by May/June allowing DMUs to be freed to operate services which will be busier due to TPE services leaving/journeys fully under the wires (Hazel Grove services).
Think to put the whole issue of today into context, if the entire northern fleet was out on the network and completely full, that would mean 75000 passengers on the move at any one moment.......which oddly enough was the same size as the crowd at Old Trafford. Lots of fans appear to have also made their way to manchester anyway simply to celebrate the occasion, As I mentioned earlier, its been very sunny here today and its brought a lot more out in general....
I have never seen Piccadilly look this busy...
https://twitter.com/absy909/status/406937874379313153/photo/1/large
https://twitter.com/Andy_Mac100/status/406895167007100928/photo/1/large
And just to balance it out... one from Victoria too...
https://twitter.com/MyNamesNatalie/status/406899142624313344/photo/1/large
https://twitter.com/absy909/status/406937874379313153/photo/1/large
https://twitter.com/Andy_Mac100/status/406895167007100928/photo/1/large
And just to balance it out... one from Victoria too...
https://twitter.com/MyNamesNatalie/status/406899142624313344/photo/1/large
Drsatan
Established Member
This has been discussed before. Apparently the 317/7s (the ex Stansted Express ones) in store at Eastleigh works are not in good condition having been kept outside since March 2012. The leasing costs for these 317s are apparently three times higher than for other 317s, so unless Porterbrook agrees to reduce the leasing fees, or the DfT agrees to underwrite the costs, then I think those 317s will remain in store for a little while longer.
I'm not also sure if introducing the 317s will displace any DMUs. Certainly it would allow for some 323 worked services to be 'doubled up', but would any DMUs be directly displaced as a result?
dannypye9999
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I travelled on the 1058 Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly it was a nightmare, especially with kids taking up most of the standing room with their bikes.
WatcherZero
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Yowzers, ive never seen it that busy either.
HSTEd
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Well its not really going to be overpopulated by any conventional description any time soon.
We could fit 80 million people into the UK at Japanese population densities, and they have rather less usable land as a proportion of the total than Britain does (Japan being insanely mountainous outside of narrow coastal plains).
At Dutch population densities the number comes out at something like 120 million, although obviously the dutch don't have to deal with huge mountain ranges or anything like that.
But it seems reasonable to assume that we are not going to be overpopulated any time in the next 50 years if the growth rate holds at a rather slow 150k/yr.
And even if we were, there is sufficiently large areas of relatively shallow water in the Irish Sea (east of the Isle of Mann) and the southern North Sea (around the Dogger bank and the Thames Estuary) to support titanic polders that could easily hold cities of several million people with respectable hinterlands.
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Think a better way of describing that is that the countries infrastructure isnt being upgraded to the same rate as population growth. The demographics are changing as well......with people living longer lives the percentage of older people in the population is growing faster than any other. You can understand Governments concerns about the ballooning cost of state pensions to the country, this is one area of government spending which might be better off in the private sector....
fireftrm
Member
I was in Leeds and all the TPE services I saw were only single unit. Arriving into Leeds at midday there were queues on the two bridges, with BTP staff controlling platform access, limiting entry to the number that could be shoe-horned into a 185. Same numbers exiting services at around 18:00 and still single units.
hairyhandedfool
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Oh I'm sure Manchester can cope with one event too (they do have two Premier League football teams), but aiui, Manchester's Christmas Market is the largest they have ever had and a friend of mine gave up with it after 30 mins yesterday (having travelled three stops the wrong way on the tram just to get on one into town), not because it was too big, but because of the number of people there. This on top of a rugby world cup final and the regular Christmas shoppers plus people for the various 'gigs' at the various arenas, means LOTS of people.
I wonder if Cardiff could cope with that?
voyagerdude220
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Please can someone upload a copy of these photographs onto here? I'm unable to view them via the links as I'm not on twitter. Thanks.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It's probably worthwhile for train operators to bring out units that normally work peak hours and even to re-schedule some maintenance to get a couple more units into service if a particular day is expected to be unusually busy - and from posts above this seems to have happened to some extent.
In the past it might have been possible to have some "spare" trains available for use at busy times, but at least four things have put paid to that:
- The operator has to pay the leasing charge whether the unit is in service for 350 days per year or just one.
- Modern trains, even loco-hauled, are far more complex than the likes of Mk1 stock and if they are stored for three months and expected to work on demand they probably won't.
- It was formerly possible to keep some older trains serviceable in reserve, but the trains scrapped in the last decade or so wouldn't comply with mandatory safety rules.
- There is so much pressure for DMUs in particular that any spare ones would very quickly find themselves in daily use anyway.
In the past it might have been possible to have some "spare" trains available for use at busy times, but at least four things have put paid to that:
- The operator has to pay the leasing charge whether the unit is in service for 350 days per year or just one.
- Modern trains, even loco-hauled, are far more complex than the likes of Mk1 stock and if they are stored for three months and expected to work on demand they probably won't.
- It was formerly possible to keep some older trains serviceable in reserve, but the trains scrapped in the last decade or so wouldn't comply with mandatory safety rules.
- There is so much pressure for DMUs in particular that any spare ones would very quickly find themselves in daily use anyway.
bewildered
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I was one of the RL fans on the 11:55am from Leeds to Manchester yesterday and it wasn't pleasant. It was dangerously loaded and got worse when there was no crowd control at Dewsbury and Huddersfield and idiots just piled on not caring about the people already on board.
Having said that credit where credit is due to TPE. I noticed as we passed the depot near Piccadilly there didn't appear to be any additional carriages. They did however put n shuttle coaches from Leeds direct to Manchester to ease the crowding somewhat.
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Having said that credit where credit is due to TPE. I noticed as we passed the depot near Piccadilly there didn't appear to be any additional carriages. They did however put n shuttle coaches from Leeds direct to Manchester to ease the crowding somewhat.
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You're rather banal aren't you?The rugby league ( crap one)
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I think it is SWT which turns out old 455s at weekends rather than the newer 450s, because the maintenance regime for the 450s is mileage based.
This means it pays to lay up the 450s to lower the overall maintenance cost.
Northern doesn't have the luxury of a new train fleet to manage like that, but it does illustrate why TOCs might leave stock in depots rather than use them.
I would also guess that the performance regime does not apply at weekends (overcrowding stats etc), so the TOCs are not incentivised to do anything about it.
I think it is about 50 years since I first realised that the railway "doesn't care" at weekends.
Which is equivalent to the entire population of Bolton AND Stockport moving to Central Manchester!!!
Clearly a very exceptional day yesterday....and from a rail perspective, we as a nation value the concept of a " walk on " railway. As in other areas of infrastructure, if the design limit of capacity is reached, then clearly a log jam will ensue, be it trains, buses , cars or shopping centres. Im suprised that nobody mentioned what happened in Asda the previous day on Black Friday...
northernchris
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Do tfgm sponsor Northern to strengthen services on a weekend like they do at peak times? One thing is certain though, Northern's PPM would have taken a bad hit yesterday as station dwell times were increased due to the overcrowding
evergreenadam
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75,000 spectators in attendance at Old Trafford yesterday.
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But aren't they allowed to void a day's PPM result in the face of exceptional problems?
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But aren't they allowed to void a day's PPM result in the face of exceptional problems?
YorkshireBear
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You dont need to have a twitter account they open to view.
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Never heard that word and the definition in dictionary doesn't make sense to me.
But presuming you are insulting me.
It was a joke as indicated by the wink and was meant to build on the freindly banter i have with many people over the best type of Rugby.
That depends on the platform. There are some platforms which you are required to log in to see Twitter content.
Exceptional yes, and predictable, given what was happening simultaneously. In the days of BR we would take sunshine as being the worst case, and sunshine did allow you to leave people on the platform, pouring rain would have lead to fewer travellers but they probably should have been able to board the first train to arrive.
In a case such as yesterday, I would have expected some central coordination given that most if not all the events would have been known for months, some for over a year.
Taking into account current operating conditions, I would assume that a few dagrams could have been replaced by LHCS, even if most probably could not, and that is where additional vehichles from non-scheduled TOCs e.g. West Coast could be drafted in. Northern could have released some DMU vehichles with e.g. Blackpool-Manchester LHCS and TPE with e.g. Newcastle-Liverpool LHCS. Whether there are Locos capable of matching DMU speeds is another issue and some stops may have had to be sacrificed and/or special timings used. I realise that it is far from easy to change workings just for one day as it can disrupt a large number of diagrams, but with advance planning, it used to work. And may even be needed for the next few saturdays, especially if there is a risk of sun.
voyagerdude220
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I'm unable to view the pictures..
northwichcat
Veteran Member
According to the Chairman of MCRUA yesterday a Chester-Manchester service left 25 unable to board at Northwich and that was before it reached the station which usually has the highest number of boarding passengers in the Manchester direction (Knutsford.)
Northern don't seem to understand Altrincham is where a lot of people travelling to sport at Old Trafford change between National Rail and Metrolink!
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Not usually unless the match day shuttles between Manchester and Old Trafford are running. Although:
Some reported 3 x 142s sitting in Stockport sidings idle yesterday.
Northern don't seem to understand Altrincham is where a lot of people travelling to sport at Old Trafford change between National Rail and Metrolink!
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Not usually unless the match day shuttles between Manchester and Old Trafford are running. Although:
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Some reported 3 x 142s sitting in Stockport sidings idle yesterday.
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That would be a matter for parliament/Government to determine. As it is now. And as it was under BR!
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Two observations:
1. The person who posted one of the photos complains about 'no organisation' - but the photo shows crush barriers in place and staff supervising, so clearly some organisation.
2. The photos show crowds similar to what were experienced every summer Saturday at the likes of Blackpool, Llandudno etc up to the early 60s.
Isnt the inability to meet one-off spikes in demand all part of the pay off which comes when sweating assets to the extreme. If there was spare capacity in place for coping with extreme peaks it would by definition be unused for much of the time. The same people complaining about overcrowding might be the ones who complain when the railways cost so much more due to the overprovision of stock for much of the year.
I think Northern face a unique problem with overcrowding etc. They have a ver high subsidy profile which in part must be linked to a cheap fare structure. Demand is growing and the only way I can see it being capped is with price increases. I am not sure the Dft would accept large fleet increases if it meant higher subsidies when all their efforts are going into reducing the strain on the public purse. We all like the turn up and go railway we just dont like paying for it so much.
Oh and as an aside if units are used over the weekend out of cycle and maintenance suffers leading to problems in peak hour on Monday mornings the TOC would get slammed. Damned if you do ....
I think Northern face a unique problem with overcrowding etc. They have a ver high subsidy profile which in part must be linked to a cheap fare structure. Demand is growing and the only way I can see it being capped is with price increases. I am not sure the Dft would accept large fleet increases if it meant higher subsidies when all their efforts are going into reducing the strain on the public purse. We all like the turn up and go railway we just dont like paying for it so much.
Oh and as an aside if units are used over the weekend out of cycle and maintenance suffers leading to problems in peak hour on Monday mornings the TOC would get slammed. Damned if you do ....
That's another thing, passengers don't help themselves. Yesterday I witnessed a women with her fella and kids standing in the middle of aisle with her suitcase blocking access from either direction whilst she digged through her bag to find her reservation ticket because she didn't know which seat she was sat in. This went on for a few minutes to the point where myself and some others left the train to walk around the platform and rejoin at the other end of the carriage. Given she was standing on the platform for atleast 20 minutes prior to the train arriving, that would have been a better time than any to check her reservations details.
There was also a uni open day at Manchester Met which was heaving.
When I passed Longsight there was only 2 DMUs there.
Excellent post ......this is the true reality which a lot of the public simply dont realise , and judging by some of the comments on here, rail enthusiasts as well.
If I was the ultimate decision maker on rail policy in the North, I would have to accept that there are genuine reasons for public subsidy owing to the wide spread of population depsite the North also having 4 major cities and related suburbs. Clearly operating rolling stock in the fom of Pacers is not ideal for todays railway, but of course that decision was taken 30 years or so ago, and who was predicting the record amounts of passengers today back then????
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