Rumour: Extremely Low Quota of Interrail tickets on Germany/France High-Speed Trains

[doc7austin]

There is currently a discussion on the German-language international rail form -> https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?030,10720681

According to the sales staff at in the German ticket center (DB ReiseZentrum), DB only releases only releases a total quota of 6 Interrail/Eurail tickets per train* through the DB sales channel.

* DB/SNCF cooperation high-speed train traffic (ICE/TGV Inoui):
Frankfurt - Strasbourg - Paris
Frankfurt - Saarbrücken - Paris
Stuttgart - Strasbourg - Paris
Munich - Stuttgart - Strasbourg - Paris

I do not know whether this rule also applies to the Frankfurt - Strasbourg - Lyon - Marseilles high-speed train.

If that rumour was true, that would be very bad news for Interrail/Eurail passholders.
Imagine only 6 available Interrail tickets per train during the busy summer travel season !
Until there was the belief that no quota exists for Interrail tickets at for the aforementioned trains. As long as normal-price tickets are available, Interrail tickets are still sold, as well.

Different quota may exist, when buying the Interrail ticket via the SNCF sales channel. Quotas/fares differ between the DB and SNCF sales channels.
It is not possible to book the Interrail ticket for these trains online through the DB sales channel bahn.de.

Mind you: No Interrail tickets are needed, if you use these trains wholly within Germany (e.g. Munich-Karlsruhe).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think this is news, it's already well known SNCF play this silly little game, Eurostar included. And these are basically TGVs in ICE clothing.

 

[rvdborgt]

I don't think this is news, it's already well known SNCF play this silly little game, Eurostar included. And these are basically TGVs in ICE clothing.

I doubt this is true. Last year, SNCF had just removed the limited quota for pass holders on this train. I've tried to test this theory by trying to find a TGV/ICE that is almost full but no luck so far. Maybe when Easter gets closer.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am increasingly finding that point to point is coming out significantly cheaper than interrail.

This has been the case for Leeds to Syracuse and back to Rome, Leeds to Stuttgart, Ljubljana, Vienna, Bratislava, Prague, Frankfurt and back to Leeds, and also for our up coming Leeds to Bødo trip.

 

[lkoroes]

I imagine at this point SNCF have an Interrail-shaped darts board in their office. Six seats for a train that can take 400 people is just outrageously low and unjustified.

 

[doc7austin]

I don't think this is news, it's already well known SNCF play this silly little game, Eurostar included. And these are basically TGVs in ICE clothing.

Well, SNCF and DB have different sales channels. And in their respective sales channel offer different quotas (e.g. for discounted tickets) and fares.
Until December 2023 there was a consensus in the community that the DB sales channel does not impose a quota on Interrail tickets for the Germany/France high-speed trains.

I doubt this is true. Last year, SNCF had just removed the limited quota for pass holders on this train.

The problem is that the train operators are not super open to share their commercial decisions regarding quotas for Interrail passengers.
I remember reading last year that SNCF had reformed the Interrail quota system for purely domestic TGV/Inoui trains. Quotas are still applied, however, Interrail tickets are priced in a dynamic way with two pricing levels. If the cheap quota runs out, Interrail tickets are still sold at a higher pricing level, as long as normal-fare tickets are available on a particular train.

I am increasingly finding that point to point is coming out significantly cheaper than interrail.

In my eyes this is the commercial goal of SNCF and co.: Implement full yield management across their long-distance train network.

 

[rvdborgt]

The problem is that the train operators are not super open to share their commercial decisions regarding quotas for Interrail passengers.

Correct. We can only do tests at the user end and try to draw conclusions from that.
However, when you can book at least 36 seats via Interrail (who will probably use the SNCF system), in one and the same train, then it seems unlikely that DB would only be able to sell 6.

In my eyes this is the commercial goal of SNCF and co.: Implement full yield management across their long-distance train network.

You may be right

 

[30907]

Just to clarify,

I remember reading last year that SNCF had reformed the Interrail quota system for purely domestic TGV/Inoui trains. Quotas are still applied, however, Interrail tickets are priced in a dynamic way with two pricing levels. If the cheap quota runs out, Interrail tickets are still sold at a higher pricing level, as long as normal-fare tickets are available on a particular train.

That is certainly the case, and not only since last year.

As for your rumour, the thread on Drehscheibe consistently discounts (with evidence!) the comment of one travel centre staff member.
You rightly point out that there are two booking systems on this group of services. I suspect their reference was to the number of tickets available (via travel centres?) at 6 months ahead (DB system) as opposed to 3 months (SNCF system).

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Has full yield management not been the declared policy of SNCF for some years (possibly right back to the Socrates ticket retailing disaster in the mid-90s...)? These days, they not only have a large range of fares available, by train, but also a range of discounts for different types of passengers as well as a 'Premier' offer on just a few lines with a dedicated 1st class section (normally the upper deck closest to the Power Car) and a free coffee/tea thrown in... And, in addition, they offer Ouigo as the 'budget carrier' on many routes as well.... So, yes, quotas for IR travel fits into this very clearly.

 

[rvdborgt]

I remember reading last year that SNCF had reformed the Interrail quota system for purely domestic TGV/Inoui trains. Quotas are still applied, however, Interrail tickets are priced in a dynamic way with two pricing levels. If the cheap quota runs out, Interrail tickets are still sold at a higher pricing level, as long as normal-fare tickets are available on a particular train.

That change is already from a number of years ago. Last year, probably all on 11/12/2022, SNCF removed limited quota from the TGV services to Barcelona, Milan and Germany. The quota only remain on the TGV services to Brussels. They also lowered the extortionate pass holders fares on TGV Lyria somewhat (€68 to €39 in 1st; 2nd is €29 now, I believe down from €35).

 

[doc7austin]

Correct. We can only do tests at the user end and try to draw conclusions from that.
However, when you can book at least 36 seats via Interrail (who will probably use the SNCF system), in one and the same train, then it seems unlikely that DB would only be able to sell 6.

It is only a rumour.
However, I assume the DB and SNCF sales channels control different quotas for all ticket types on the aforementioned cross-border trains.
DB cannot fully access the SNCF quota.
In vice-verse SNCF cannot fully access the DB quota.
So you may be able to buy that Interrail ticket for a specific train via a SNCF sales channel, but not via the DB sales channel.

So, the statement by the staff of the DB ReiseZentrum would make sense, that the DB yield management algorithm automatically allocates a quota of 6 Interrail tickets per train at a fixed price.
DB ReiseZentrum is able to sell SNCF tickets, however, I think this only applies to tickets that are available through the normal SNCF direct online sales channel. And we know that Interrail tickets for the France/Germany cross-border trains are not offered via the SNCF direct online sales channel.

It wouldn't even surprise me if SNCF prices thoses Interrail tickets dynamically (different price levels) and DB only applies one fixed price.

 

[peterblue]

I am increasingly finding that point to point is coming out significantly cheaper than interrail.

This has been the case for Leeds to Syracuse and back to Rome, Leeds to Stuttgart, Ljubljana, Vienna, Bratislava, Prague, Frankfurt and back to Leeds, and also for our up coming Leeds to Bødo trip.

Usually will be the case for journeys involving a lot of France/Italy/Spain highspeed trains, which feature additional high reservation fees.

There are a few countries where Interrail does represent decent value for money - particularly around Switzerland.

It depends how much you travel in a day, and how old you are. There's a discount for u28s, and it was a sad day for me to no longer qualify for it! Interrail works out at about 55-60 euros a day (I think; I'm on mobile so I can not easily check right now). You can of course, only use an Interrail day when travelling long distances. If only travelling a short distance in a day it's better to just buy a normal ticket and save the interrail travel day for a longer journey

Enjoy your trips

It is only a rumour.
However, I assume the DB and SNCF sales channels control different quotas for all ticket types on the aforementioned cross-border trains.
DB cannot fully access the SNCF quota.

It wouldn't even surprise me if SNCF prices thoses Interrail tickets dynamically (different price levels) and DB only applies one fixed price.

There are different interrail reservation prices for SNCF TGV trains , unsure if this is due to a quota or due to how late it is booked.

 

[rvdborgt]

There are different interrail reservation prices for SNCF TGV trains , unsure if this is due to a quota or due to how late it is booked.

Domestic journeys in France have a limited quota of €10 reservations, if sold old it's €20 until the train is full.
For international TGV journeys, the price may depend on journey length (such as for Paris-Barcelona), but for a particular journey the price is fixed. Only for TGV to Brussels, there is still a quota in place, which is also fairly limited (price is €20 in 2nd and €30 in 1st). However, it is possible that the pass holder quota is not available from Brussels anymore, but at the same time, in the same train, a €10 reservation is still available from Lille.

 

[doc7austin]

Usually will be the case for journeys involving a lot of France/Italy/Spain highspeed trains, which feature additional high reservation fees.

There are a few countries where Interrail does represent decent value for money - particularly around Switzerland.

Interrail provides incredible value for countries with an open/reservation-free system and relatively high (one-way) ticket prices.
Yes, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands come to mind.

However, yes, it's problematic on those "global prices" countries with reservation-mandatory long-distance trains.

The more you are getting to the East or Southeast (e.g. Poland, Hungary, Romania):
One-way tickets might be even cheaper in total than the price-tag for Interrail.
Moreover, some country's railways offer some good deals on domestic (non-Interrail) passes. Poland, Czech Republic, and Slovakia come to mind.

There are different interrail reservation prices for SNCF TGV trains , unsure if this is due to a quota or due to how late it is booked.

Well, in my eyes it's a question of semantics.
I personally do not prefer to call these Interrail tickets -> reservations.
The term reservation implies that the traveller just needs to "reserve" a seat.
However, Interrail tickets are nothing more than just normal discounted tickets. So train operators earn some good extra money on Interrail tickets.

Domestic journeys in France have a limited quota of €10 reservations, if sold old it's €20 until the train is full.
For international TGV journeys, the price may depend on journey length (such as for Paris-Barcelona), but for a particular journey the price is fixed.

The problem is that train operators do not publish all these terms/quota and prices for Interrail tickets. It is a black box. We only deduce the Interrail ticket prices from experience reports.

If someone wants to undertake extensive travels through Western Europe and thinks about purchasing an Interrail/Eurail pass -> this someone is buying a pig in a poke.
He or she doesn't know how much it is going to cost at the end.

On the other hand, if you stick to normal advance-purchase tickets (without a railpass), you will find out the prices easily in the sales channels of the respective train operators.

And if you want to ride from Marseilles to Barcelona on the Renfe high speed train (without touching Spain before) -> you have peace of mind, when booking an advance purchase ticket on renfe.com. But you will be sweating if you own a railpass -> you need to hope that there are still free seats available on the train, while trying to board the train.

 

[rvdborgt]

Well, in my eyes it's a question of semantics.
I personally do not prefer to call these Interrail tickets -> reservations.
The term reservation implies that the traveller just needs to "reserve" a seat.
However, Interrail tickets are nothing more than just normal discounted tickets. So train operators earn some good extra money on Interrail tickets.

Although especially TGV reservations are way more expensive than what a normal reservation should cost, I still prefer the term reservation, or pass reservation. Technically I think it's a reservation with included supplement.
For Interrail, a discounted ticket is something else, which only requires an active pass, but not an active travel day. Using the term "ticket" is confusing if you already have a pass, since the the pass normally functions as the (base) ticket.

 

[Flying Snail]

Although especially TGV reservations are way more expensive than what a normal reservation should cost, I still prefer the term reservation, or pass reservation. Technically I think it's a reservation with included supplement.
For Interrail, a discounted ticket is something else, which only requires an active pass, but not an active travel day. Using the term "ticket" is confusing if you already have a pass, since the the pass normally functions as the (base) ticket.

You are right, calling it anything other than reservation will just lead to confusion for people not very familiar with the internal workings of the railways.

In reality though these charges from SNCF, RENFE, Trenitalia, Eurostar, OBB (on their Italian cross border trains), etc are little more than another sneaky "tourist tax" and sadly Eurail B.V. as the promoters of Interrail/Eurail are not nearly as clear or upfront as they should be with potential customers about these significant additional charges and the difficulties around using their product on certain popular routes.

SNCF are basically admitting that these "reservation" charges are a blatant tourist rip-off by offering free Interrail reservations to French citizens travelling on Interrail passes.

Last I checked it was against EU directives to discriminate by country but certain EU member states have a long history of only obeying the rules they want so no surprise there.

 

[30907]

SNCF are basically admitting that these "reservation" charges are a blatant tourist rip-off by offering free Interrail reservations to French citizens travelling on Interrail passes.

Do you have a source (I can't find one) , and does it apply to residents or citizens?

Back on topic: the one service that seems to have a blanket restriction is ex-Thalys Eurostar in 2nd eg on Friday afternoons.

 

[rvdborgt]

Do you have a source (I can't find one) , and does it apply to residents or citizens?

Probably residents. Citizens is certainly forbidden.

Back on topic: the one service that seems to have a blanket restriction is ex-Thalys Eurostar in 2nd eg on Friday afternoons.

Except that they don't. I can still find pass holder fares Brussels-Paris on Friday 29 March (Friday before Easter), e.g. at 15:43. 1 week later, there's more choice.

 

[RT4038]

You are right, calling it anything other than reservation will just lead to confusion for people not very familiar with the internal workings of the railways.

In reality though these charges from SNCF, RENFE, Trenitalia, Eurostar, OBB (on their Italian cross border trains), etc are little more than another sneaky "tourist tax" and sadly Eurail B.V. as the promoters of Interrail/Eurail are not nearly as clear or upfront as they should be with potential customers about these significant additional charges and the difficulties around using their product on certain popular routes.

I don't think it is a tourist tax at all. I think it just shows what strain the Interrail/Eurail (but particularly Interrail) product is under. France in particular bears the brunt of conveying the northern European states population long distances to sunnier climes , with major peaks of demand, and the southern European states people visiting the northern countries. They don't want standing passengers in their long distance trains, and they clearly don't think their re-imbursement from the Interrail product is sufficient recompense for their efforts. So quotas and supplements are their way of dealing with it.

There is no 'right' to an Interrail product giving unlimited travel - it was introduced as an idealistic concept for youth travel, but the French in particular and some other railway lines have found it is not financially advantageous to them and have had to control its use. The French railway network just happens to be geographically good for the UK/Belgian/Dutch/German/Austrian/Scandinavian/Polish/Czech/Slovak etc population to get to Italy/South of France/Spanish and other sunny holiday destinations. (and before anyone points out, yes I know some of the combinations don't require travel in France!, but the OeBB have introduced their own measures on the Brenner and Tarvisio lines )

 

[rvdborgt]

the OeBB have introduced their own measures on the Brenner and Tarvisio lines

IIRC at first they didn't get any pass income from passengers on the Italian part of those routes. However, AFAIK the way the pass revenue is distributed nowadays means they could very well have their part for passengers travelling there. That means it's now just another way of generating more income and they keep the supplements because thy can get away with it.

 

[A S Leib]

Interrail works out at about 55-60 euros a day (I think; I'm on mobile so I can not easily check right now).

For the adult global pass:

• £61 per day for 4 days in a month
• £55 per day for 5 days in a month
• £47 per day for 7 days in a month
• £39 per day for 10 days within 2 months
• £32 per day for 15 days within 2 months
• £27 per day for 15 days continuous
• £23 per day for 22 days
• £19-£21 per day for 1 month (I'm not sure if it's 28, 29, 30 or 31 calendar days)
• £11-£12 per day for 2 months
• £9 per day for 3 months

I don't think it is a tourist tax at all. I think it just shows what strain the Interrail/Eurail (but particularly Interrail) product is under. France in particular bears the brunt of conveying the northern European states population long distances to sunnier climes , with major peaks of demand, and the southern European states people visiting the northern countries. They don't want standing passengers in their long distance trains, and they clearly don't think their re-imbursement from the Interrail product is sufficient recompense for their efforts. So quotas and supplements are their way of dealing with it.

Would increasing the cost of the France-only passes placate SNCF enough for more reservations to be made available or cheaper? I know it's not a like-for-like comparison, but when, for example, the 5 days in a month France pass is £192 and the 5 days in a month Germany pass is £228, I'd suspect that there's some room to increase fares in exchange for improving reservation systems.

 

[DeverseSam]

Kind of on topic but not really, reservations are no longer available from sncf machines. The menu showing interrail still exists but it doesn’t do anything

 

[rvdborgt]

Kind of on topic but not really, reservations are no longer available from sncf machines. The menu showing interrail still exists but it doesn’t do anything

You mean for the TGV/ICEs France-Germany they don't work? Last time I was in France, they worked for domestic pass reservations. That was in November.

 

[RT4038]

For the adult global pass:

• £61 per day for 4 days in a month
• £55 per day for 5 days in a month
• £47 per day for 7 days in a month
• £39 per day for 10 days within 2 months
• £32 per day for 15 days within 2 months
• £27 per day for 15 days continuous
• £23 per day for 22 days
• £19-£21 per day for 1 month (I'm not sure if it's 28, 29, 30 or 31 calendar days)
• £11-£12 per day for 2 months
• £9 per day for 3 months

Would increasing the cost of the France-only passes placate SNCF enough for more reservations to be made available or cheaper? I know it's not a like-for-like comparison, but when, for example, the 5 days in a month France pass is £192 and the 5 days in a month Germany pass is £228, I'd suspect that there's some room to increase fares in exchange for improving reservation systems.

I should imagine the main issue is the global Interrail tickets; of UK/Belgian/Netherlands residents travelling to Paris and then changing to South/West of France/Italy/Spanish destination trains, and Nordic/East European/German/Austrian residents travelling to Paris and changing for South/West of France and Spanish destinations, with a bit of Austrian/Swiss residents travelling across France to Spain. Putting up the price of France only tickets is probably only a fairly minor consideration compared to the global passes.



There probably needs to be a fairly hefty increase in the price of global passes , with a greater percentage going to SNCF and various other high speed operators. Of course, the problem with this is that it penalises those who don't wish to use any of these trains; which is why I said that the whole Interrail concept is under considerable strain. I would think a better system (which still may not be seen to financially fair to operators) would be for Interrail tickets to get a set monetary discount on the applicable long distance/high speed fare when making the booking reservation, and no quotas (so say 20 euros off the E* fare or 30 euros off Paris-Barcelona [prices indicative, I have not researched this thoroughly!], so as long as seats are available, Interrail passholders can travel). This would encourage Interrail users to use the less popular trains / regional services and would enable the operators to manage surges of demand and maximise yield. Whether this would be enough to placate these long distance operators is another matter though.

The problem now is that the Interrail ticket is covering far too many passenger demands - the alternative is to price it in the UK All-line rover compared to UK fares bracket to ensure that it does not undercut all but the most expensive and least used ordinary tickets. i.e. a lot more expensive.

If someone wants to undertake extensive travels through Western Europe and thinks about purchasing an Interrail/Eurail pass -> this someone is buying a pig in a poke.
He or she doesn't know how much it is going to cost at the end.

But this is precisely what the (long distance/High Speed) train operators models are - differential pricing for maximum yield - the very antithesis of a fixed price Interrail ticket. I don't think that is going to change, and unless the Interrail product changes to cope with this it is going to die.

 

[rvdborgt]

I would think a better system (which still may not be seen to financially fair to operators) would be for Interrail tickets to get a set monetary discount on the applicable long distance/high speed fare when making the booking reservation, and no quotas (so say 20 euros off the E* fare or 30 euros off Paris-Barcelona [prices indicative, I have not researched this thoroughly!], so as long as seats are available, Interrail passholders can travel). This would encourage Interrail users to use the less popular trains / regional services and would enable the operators to manage surges of demand and maximise yield. Whether this would be enough to placate these long distance operators is another matter though.

Discounted tickets automatically mean that you don't need an active travel day anymore. I'm not sure how that works out financially for the operators.

 

[RT4038]

Discounted tickets automatically mean that you don't need an active travel day anymore. I'm not sure how that works out financially for the operators.

No it doesn't 'automatically mean'. It would have to be discounted tickets with an active travel day. If the term discounted is a problem, they could call it something else ('reservation and travel variable fee').

 

[rvdborgt]

No it doesn't 'automatically mean'. It would have to be discounted tickets with an active travel day. If the term discounted is a problem, they could call it something else ('reservation and travel variable fee').

They would have to call it something else or change the conditions because currently, with a discounted ticket, it *does* automatically mean you don't need an active travel day.
However, if you go too far in that direction of making Interrail/Eurail a discount card instead of a pass, then they simply become a lot less attractive.

 

[RT4038]

However, if you go too far in that direction of making Interrail/Eurail a discount card instead of a pass, then they simply become a lot less attractive.

Yes, but it is not exactly attractive already for travelling on Long Distance/High Speed trains France, Spain and some other countries. They aren't interested in straight accepting a pass. Those countries think the Interrail is too cheap for their long distance products, that they don't get sufficient re-imbursement and need to control passenger loadings. Looking at the table in post #21 it is not hard to see why.

The Interrail can still be a pass for regional trains, and for long distance trains in those countries/lines where the operator is happy to accept this.

My suggestion is how to improve the Interrail experience in the current circumstances - allowing holders the choice of making bookings on any train - whilst blending it with the re-imbursement and yield management techniques.

The alternative is a much higher pass cost for everyone. And I mean expensive....

 

[Austriantrain]

Yes, but it is not exactly attractive already for travelling on Long Distance/High Speed trains France, Spain and some other countries. They aren't interested in straight accepting a pass. Those countries think the Interrail is too cheap for their long distance products, that they don't get sufficient re-imbursement and need to control passenger loadings. Looking at the table in post #21 it is not hard to see why.

The Interrail can still be a pass for regional trains, and for long distance trains in those countries/lines where the operator is happy to accept this.

My suggestion is how to improve the Interrail experience in the current circumstances - allowing holders the choice of making bookings on any train - whilst blending it with the re-imbursement and yield management techniques.

The alternative is a much higher pass cost for everyone. And I mean expensive....

Really the same as on Nightjet services, and leading to the same reactions here - which are understandable from a personal point of view but really don’t change the fact that Interrail works best where there is spare capacity to be used, and no operator can afford to offer separate capacity for IR users which pay very, very little - or have these IR passengers block capacity that they need for other passengers which, since they pay more, have a rightful expectation to be carried.

Of course it is sad - and what Interrail and the railways definitely need to do is to be more honest about it and make it easier to book those reservations and supplements. But it’s also unavoidable I fear. There is no „moral right“ to travel around Europe for actually very little money exactly the way that one wants. And offering Interrail to everyone (instead of the original aim to encourage travel by young people) has made it worse.

 

[RT4038]

Really the same as on Nightjet services, and leading to the same reactions here - which are understandable from a personal point of view but really don’t change the fact that Interrail works best where there is spare capacity to be used, and no operator can afford to offer separate capacity for IR users which pay very, very little - or have these IR passengers block capacity that they need for other passengers which, since they pay more, have a rightful expectation to be carried.

Of course it is sad - and what Interrail and the railways definitely need to do is to be more honest about it and make it easier to book those reservations and supplements. But it’s also unavoidable I fear. There is no „moral right“ to travel around Europe for actually very little money exactly the way that one wants. And offering Interrail to everyone (instead of the original aim to encourage travel by young people) has made it worse.

Quite. 'Spare capacity' is likely to be regional & local services, with long distance services being yield managed to ensure there is no spare capacity. Not that there is any obligation to provide regional & local services specifically or mainly for the convenience of Interrail holders!

Interrail and the railways need to be make it easier and have availability to book reservations/supplements/discounted yield managed tickets, for transparency of the product and enabling passholders to make informed decisions. The only option for some reservations of paying Interrail to obtain a reservation, at an inflated price, and then another large cost to send it to you is not!! Quotas for passholders on trains is not either - just give a discount on the public price please (varying that in line with spare capacity is ok).