Running locos around at terminus stations

[straller]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering that when a locomotive-hauled train arrives at a terminus station (with carriages behind it), how does the loco get to the back to the front of the train, assuming there's no DVT in the back?

 

[Sacro]

There are a few different ways, some stations have "loco escape" points (like Hull), where the train can run on the opposite line / platform around to the other end. Some places (like King's Cross) had extra locomotives that would take the outbound working to its next destination, leaving the inbound locomotive to back out and prepare to take the next set of coaches. Some stations had a shunter that would bring the coaches out, release the loco and then shunt them back in (possibly via a carriage washer).

The only trains these days that only have a loco on one end only that I can think of off-hand are the sleepers, I know FGW use either a 57 or an 08 at Old Oak Common and a 57 at Penzance that move the stock around, and I think Scotrail use a 90 or perhaps a 67? at Euston.

 

[TheEdge]

In the days of proper railways either a pilot locomotive (normally a small tank engine or later a diesel shunter) would have come and taken the carriages away freeing the original loco or a new loco to take the carriages away on their next journey would attach, again, freeing the original loco.

Some terminal stations have/had the point work to run round in the traditional sense. In that case the terminating train would stop short of the buffers so the train was clear of the points at the buffer end of the station. The loco would then uncouple, run forward to the the buffers and run round.

As far as I know the first style is no longer done anywhere, the running round still happens now and again. The Great Yarmouth drag's rely on it.

 

[w0033944]

From your question I'm guessing you're under about 30 years of age, correct? I'm not much older but, thanks to being a modeller of the '70s and '80s, when there were still plenty of loco-hauled services into termini, I'm familiar with the procedure. In most cases, there would be a crossover (essentially a pair of turnouts) just over a locomotive length from the usual stopping point in advance of the bufferstops. Once the loco had uncoupled, it would run forward past the crossover, which would then be reversed (i.e. the points would be changed), and the loco would reverse past the stock, either on the adjacent platform road or a dedicated run-round loop. At the other end, another crossover would take the loco back onto the correct road, whereupon it would back onto the stock ready for departure.

In steam days (and I think also deep into the post-Modernisation Plan era), the alternative, especially at busy commuter termini where speed of departure was of the essence, the loco which operated the service inward would run forwards to the stops, and a fresh loco would back onto the other end of the stock under a calling-on signal. Once it had coupled and taken the train onwards, the original loco would be allowed to follow out to go on shed or to await its next turn in a spur.

EDIT: Much better explanations have already been given! As The Edge suggests, the station pilot was a vital loco in the steam and early Modernisation Plan era, and was, on occasion, painted in a variant of its Grouping livery well after Nationalisation (Newcastle's J72 no. 68723 is a good example).

 

[edwin_m]

In steam days (and I think also deep into the post-Modernisation Plan era, the alternative, especially at busy commuter termini where speed of departure was of the essence, the loco which operated the service inward would run forwards to the stops, and a fresh loco would back onto the other end of the stock under a calling-on signal. Once it had coupled and taken the train onwards, the original loco would be allowed to follow out to go on shed or to await its next turn in a spur.

This was certainly the practice in places like Manchester Piccadilly and Euston before the day of push-pull sets. To save a bit of time the arriving loco was permitted to follow the departing train down the platform at separation of a coach length or so, to stop at the starter signal. This was banned in around 1990 by which time there was virtually no need for it to happen anyway.

 

[w0033944]

This was certainly the practice in places like Manchester Piccadilly and Euston before the day of push-pull sets. To save a bit of time the arriving loco was permitted to follow the departing train down the platform at separation of a coach length or so, to stop at the starter signal. This was banned in around 1990 by which time there was virtually no need for it to happen anyway.

Interesting - as an LNER enthusiast with a friend who is a GER/M&GN/BR ER expert, I was thinking of the GER "Jazz" commuter services from Liverpool Street. Buckjumpers hauling Quint-Art sets on timings of well under 5 minutes between arrival and departure at peak times.

 

[Taunton]

Another option was that the train locomotive just reversed the carriages back out to a siding or loop outside the platforms. This was typically accompanied by a shunter in the end vestibule of what was now the leading vehicle, leaning out with a fistful of paper towels taken from the adjacent toilet, giving a slow handsignal up and down to the loco driver, who was also leaning backwards out of the cab, that movement was to continue.

Please don't laugh, that's how it was actually done! Some points actually had "backing signals" as part of this.

Crossovers at the buffers to permit locos to run round by the next track were actually not that common, and even when provided were often not used.

If you think about it, exactly the same approach was required for a departure from a terminal platform if a loco bringing the stock in was not to be trapped against the buffers until it left.

In truth, the most common approach at the main London and other termini was for another loco to come on the opposite end. This meant that the incoming loco was effectively dead until released an hour or more later. Places like Euston were full of electric locos against the buffers with trains behind them, and another loco being attached to the front for the reverse working. The increase in productivity and loco mileage per day, and the saving in numbers of locos, was very considerable when DVTs came along. This was only possible after a longstanding rule that no more than two vehicles could be propelled ahead of the loco/power unit outside "yard limits" was rescinded.

It was only in the 1960s that "in and out" working of main line coaching sets was adopted. Before this time they were generally pulled back out by a pilot loco to carriage sidings where they were serviced etc, and quite commonly remarshalled as well, then brought back later by another pilot loco if they were doing a return trip that day; the productivity of the coaching sets was also greatly enhanced by turning them round in the platform. The pilot might be a train loco for a subsequent departure, which brought coaches for a previous departure in tender-first, this was a common approach at Paddington where stock for a train to Oxford might be brought in by a "King" which was shortly afterwards setting off with a train for Birmingham.

 

[straller]

Thanks for the replies! In my country, push-pull trains were common until recently replaced by an unusual type of DMUs. I have never seen a locomotive-hauled service.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....Some stations had a shunter that would bring the coaches out, release the loco and then shunt them back in (possibly via a carriage washer)....

There was a similar operation at Brighton until the Voyagers took over on Cross Country duties, where the resident 09 at Lovers Walk Depot would move onto the rear of a 47 hauled service and drag the stock and loco into the depot. The 09 and the 47 then swapped places and the 09 hauled the train back into the station, departing for the depot once the service had left. It was the only reason Lovers Walk Depot had an 09.

.....The only trains these days that only have a loco on one end only that I can think of off-hand are the sleepers, I know FGW use either a 57 or an 08 at Old Oak Common and a 57 at Penzance that move the stock around, and I think Scotrail use a 90 or perhaps a 67? at Euston.

The resident 08 at Lock Rock (Penzance) hauls the sleeper stock into Penzance station with a 57 on the rear. as I understand it, the other three 57s are at Old Oak Common.

The Scotrail Sleeper is moved with a 90 at Euston.

Another option was that the train locomotive just reversed the carriages back out to a siding or loop outside the platforms. This was typically accompanied by a shunter in the end vestibule of what was now the leading vehicle, leaning out with a fistful of paper towels taken from the adjacent toilet, giving a slow handsignal up and down to the loco driver, who was also leaning backwards out of the cab, that movement was to continue.

Please don't laugh, that's how it was actually done! Some points actually had "backing signals" as part of this....

It was particularly common in Devon where a class 50 and coaches (or a 'dead' DMU) replaced an 'unavailable' DMU in the late eighties. Barnstaple was a common place for it to occur, though, as I understand it, the stock was propelled 'in service' to reduce late running.

About 5 minutes into this video (not mine) there is a 57 propelling it's sleeper stock into Long Rock via 'the wash'. staff are clearly visible in the sleeper coach at the front. I rather suspect they use walkie-talkies rather than paper towels now.

 

[CockneySparrow]

They used to do this every train at Kings Lynn pre electrification, W0033994 has it nearly spot on except the engine pushes the carriages back then uncouples moves forward again then go through some points on the next line

When the train comes into the platform first time the first two carriages always sit in the points hence the carriages being shunted back for the engine to move over

The only place I know where they still do this is Great Yarmouth (Summer Saturday service from LST) and Lowestoft when the air show is on

GA did have a top and tail set they used to use for the Yarmouth run when they run out of DMUs

 

[6Gman]

I'm pretty sure that at Birmingham Moor Street, many years ago, locos were released by use of a traverser. Difficult to describe, but basically a movable platform carrying a single set of tracks which moves sideways between platform roads.

Don't know of any other station that used the idea, but was certainly used at certain railway works (e.g. Derby Litchurch Lane and Crewe) where, if you think about it, the points and crossings needed to link up all those sidings would have been extremely complex!

Not visited either works recently, but suspect still in use. (Checking Trackmaps shows the Crewe one still exists, serving over 20 roads, Litchurch Lane isn't mapped, but I discover the RTC also has one!)

 

[route:oxford]

From memory...

Often at Glasgow Queen Street, a service would be piloted up the Cowlairs tunnels up to the triangle at Ashfield station, the service would then reverse.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Railtours still do it especially on the Cambrian Aberystwyth still has loco run round facilities.

 

[w0033944]

They used to do this every train at Kings Lynn pre electrification, W0033994 has it nearly spot on except the engine pushes the carriages back then uncouples moves forward again then go through some points on the next line

They might well have done that at Lynn, but I'm 99% sure that the procedure I described was used elsewhere. It probably was one of those things that varied between different locations in different eras depending on local conditions, traffic flows and traditions.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Railtours still do it especially on the Cambrian Aberystwyth still has loco run round facilities.

Some do, these days NR dont like points, over the last 20 years so many have been removed not only at stations but in the middle of running lines

Getting back to Kings Lynn the points in the station have long gone, about a month ago there was a tour train that was top and tailed in the platform all afternoon, also the points have been removed for direct access to Middleton Towers

 

[Whistler40145]

Loco hauled trains at Blackpool North used to be propelled out to the sidings with a Shunter in the rear carriage waving instructions to the Driver, this was common practice until a train reversing into the sidings derailed, this was the end for trains being propelled, therefore trains stayed in the platform & a fresh loco backed on.

Also, I remember Cardiff to Manchester Piccadilly Class 37 hauled services using the now rarely used crossover in the mainline platforms.

 

[fowler9]

I used to love Lime Street back in the late 70's and 80's. All of the roads between the platform full of locos ready to back on to their next train, then as the train left watching the loco that brought the service in tail the train down the platform. The Cardiff was weird as they got back shunted by whatever was handy in that road down the tunnels, you'd get 86's and all kinds doing the shunt so the 37 was released. The Preston services always had plenty of 31'sor what have you just to back another one on to the front.

 

[IanXC]

I'm pretty sure that at Birmingham Moor Street, many years ago, locos were released by use of a traverser. Difficult to describe, but basically a movable platform carrying a single set of tracks which moves sideways between platform roads.

Yes that sounds familiar, I seem to recall the remains of this traverser were visible up until the recent refurbishment.

 

[poshfan]

Not a terminus station, but I remember watching the operation at Nottingham in the late 70's when a London-Sheffield express came in, a 47 with about 8 Mk2s. In those days, the Sheffield trains alternated between via Derby and via Nottingham, with a few in the peak going direct down the Erewash valley line. At Nottingham this meant a reversal of direction, and the same loco that brought the train in would take it out again, so you could watch the uncoupling operation at one end then amble down to the other end in time to see the loco turn up again after its run round and couple up again. The whole operation was done remarkably quickly. I assume this carried on until HST's came in, not sure when that was. I remember in those days Midland line tickets were very cheap compared to similar distances on the ECML, for example from where I live, Stamford, if you wanted a day out in London, it was much cheaper to get the train from Kettering than from Peterborough. You had to drive there, in those days Stamford line trains were one every 2hours and finished about 6pm. Also there was always loads of space on the Midland, it was not uncommon to get a whole coach to yourself off peak.

 

[LWB]

Go to most of the preserved lines and you will see this being done most days. They still have the trackwork in place to do it.

There never was a better sight than a 'freed' loco tanking down the middle track of three (or four) tracks, on its way to the front of the train it'd just brought in.

 

[Golden Gripper]

I'm pretty sure that at Birmingham Moor Street, many years ago, locos were released by use of a traverser. Difficult to describe, but basically a movable platform carrying a single set of tracks which moves sideways between platform roads.

Don't know of any other station that used the idea, but was certainly used at certain railway works (e.g. Derby Litchurch Lane and Crewe) where, if you think about it, the points and crossings needed to link up all those sidings would have been extremely complex!

Not visited either works recently, but suspect still in use. (Checking Trackmaps shows the Crewe one still exists, serving over 20 roads, Litchurch Lane isn't mapped, but I discover the RTC also has one!)

I remember the traverser at Moor Street, it was just long enough to hold a Prairie tank, as Moor Street was only used by suburban trains. However, it wasn't a single piece of track as at Crewe Works, but three parallel tracks that slid from side to side so that at the terminal end of the platform there was always some track to the buffers, even after the loco had shunted across. I always assumed this was so that if the fresh engine backing down onto the train pushed it backwards it wouldn't derail.

The traverser slid under the platform as it went from side to side. Long after the traverser was removed there was a gap under the terminal ends of what are now platforms 3 and 4 for the traverser to slide into, though I haven't looked for it recently. It might have gone with the recent refurbishment.

 

[noddingdonkey]

There were recently, and may still be, freight workings from a recycling company in Laisterdyke that ran around in Bradford Interchange Platform 1, which has a loco release line.

I think I read of a curious arrangement at the Interchange/Exchange whereby the train would stop clear of a set of points, the loco would be uncoupled, then the stock would freewheel into the platform downhill, controlled by the guard operating the brake. Then the loco would reverse onto the stock.

Not sure whether that was an official procedure!

 

[Mugby]

edwin_m raises an interesting point about the arriving loco being allowed to follow the departing train out of the platform. I believe this was a unique example (not sure if it was in the rule book then) of a driver not being allowed to pass a signal which was off.

Also, Taunton is absolutely correct about the shunter giving handsignals to the driver, I've seen allsorts being used, newspapers, rags, paper towels.......!

It always used to amaze me how much power some of those little shunting engines had, particularly steam ones, when pulling a rake of maybe a dozen coaches!

I wonder how many shunters are still employed on the railway (people, not engines) the number must be minimal nowadays!

 

[Golden Gripper]

It was only in the 1960s that "in and out" working of main line coaching sets was adopted. Before this time they were generally pulled back out by a pilot loco to carriage sidings where they were serviced etc, and quite commonly remarshalled as well, then brought back later by another pilot loco if they were doing a return trip that day; the productivity of the coaching sets was also greatly enhanced by turning them round in the platform. The pilot might be a train loco for a subsequent departure, which brought coaches for a previous departure in tender-first, this was a common approach at Paddington where stock for a train to Oxford might be brought in by a "King" which was shortly afterwards setting off with a train for Birmingham.

That arrangement at Paddington only came in well into 60s. Prior to that there was a dedicated fleet of pannier tanks that brought the sets in from Old Oak Common. They were often of the 1500 class, of which there was, I think, only 10 built. They were unusual in that the tanks were only attached to the boiler and didn't extend forward alongside smokebox. This gave them a rather ungainly appearance. I also seem to remember they were the last pannier tanks to be designed in this country. Some more were built later, but from an earlier design. If anybody knows different I'd be interested to hear.

 

[Leylandlad]

Kyle of Lochalsh still has a run round loop on the right hand side platform as you look from the road bridge. Only used by occasional excursions and the Royal Scotsman.

Can't much more of a terminus than Kyle

Whitby will have a run round loop installed shortly in the station, instead of having to propel back to Bog Hall to run round in the sidings. Must be a very long time since a Network Rail station had a RR loop installed.

What will the layout be at Tweedbank? It was going to be a single line wasn't it until the Scottish Gov confirmed it would be able to accommodate excursions...anyone know?

 

[Manchester77]

At Piccadilly there are points at the end of each platforms up near the buffers which I guess were used for the process edwin_m described

 

[Thomas6187]

Just platform 5/6, which get tested every so often

 

[Cletus]

Not knowing what a traverser was, I had a quick google and found this picture

At Moor Street, from the following webpage http://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1223.htm

 

[edwin_m]

At Piccadilly there are points at the end of each platforms up near the buffers which I guess were used for the process edwin_m described

No, the loco followed the train out on the same track. There were some buffer stop crossovers, one remains, but this would have needed the adjacent platform to be empty.

 

[G0ORC]

Not a terminus station, but I remember watching the operation at Nottingham in the late 70's when a London-Sheffield express came in, a 47 with about 8 Mk2s. In those days, the Sheffield trains alternated between via Derby and via Nottingham, with a few in the peak going direct down the Erewash valley line. At Nottingham this meant a reversal of direction, and the same loco that brought the train in would take it out again, so you could watch the uncoupling operation at one end then amble down to the other end in time to see the loco turn up again after its run round and couple up again. The whole operation was done remarkably quickly. I assume this carried on until HST's came in, not sure when that was. I remember in those days Midland line tickets were very cheap compared to similar distances on the ECML, for example from where I live, Stamford, if you wanted a day out in London, it was much cheaper to get the train from Kettering than from Peterborough. You had to drive there, in those days Stamford line trains were one every 2hours and finished about 6pm. Also there was always loads of space on the Midland, it was not uncommon to get a whole coach to yourself off peak.

Sorry, but not correct.

Speaking with my ex-Nottingham power controllers hat on, none of the Sheffield - London via Nottingham trains were booked to run round in the 70s and 80s.

The booked diagrams were Class 45/1 (with one exception). The regular working was that the incoming locos from Sheffield were booked fuel and worked the next fast to St. Pancras. Incoming locos from London were booked fuel and worked the next Sheffield departure.

As far as I can recollect the only Class 47 diagram involved worked the last up Sheffield in the evening and then onto a parcel working to the west country (4V09 2134 Nottingham PCD - Bristol) if I remember correctly. The incoming balance Class 47 from Bristol worked the first Sheffield.

Trains were given I think 6 minutes for the incoming loco to be detached, the outgoing loco attached and the train depart. There was a dispensation at Nottingham for the air brake regulations to be short circuited to enable the change to be made more swiftly.

That's not to say run-rounds didn't occur - in the event of a failure, a loco stopped for exam, repairs or brake blocks and nothing being available off Toton shed, the incoming loco would have to run round. The problem was always fuel and if that was needed, a delay of anything up to 30 mins would often occur whilst it was refuelled in Nottingham HS.

Even a straight run-round would cost 5 minutes station overtime so it was avoided as often as possible. Of course even though most trains were booked Class 45/1 that's not to say Class 47 ETH didn't appear - they did. Even Class 25 and Class 31 non ETH fitted would sometimes appear on air-con stock when absolutely necessary and we would do our utmost to confine them to the Sheffield - Nottingham leg so as the time lost in running would be minimised.