Running locos around at terminus stations

[edwin_m]

edwin_m raises an interesting point about the arriving loco being allowed to follow the departing train out of the platform. I believe this was a unique example (not sure if it was in the rule book then) of a driver not being allowed to pass a signal which was off.

These were colour light signals and standard practice would be for them to revert to danger as soon as the train passed onto the track circuit beyond, which in the major termini would be only a few metres after the signal. In which case they would definitely be at danger by the time the released loco got there.

Sometimes a special control was fitted called "last wheel replacement" which keeps the proceed aspect displayed until the whole train has passed it. You can still see this at Derby. However the main reason for installing this at a terminus would be to ensure that a driver propelling a train didn't see a signal revert to danger ahead of him - Derby did and probably still does have many trains propelling to the RTC sidings. However propelling to sidings was an alternative to the loco following the train out, and at the stations where locos followed the trains out last wheel replacement probably wasn't necessary and may even have been forbidden (I'd be interested to know).

 

[DJL]

I'm pretty sure that about 6 years ago there was still a loco release at one of the platforms at London Bridge (Southern side). I was surprised to spot it given that London Bridge probably hasn't seen a Loco hauled service in a very long time!

I would imagine it has gone by now in the rebuild.

 

[G0ORC]

These were colour light signals and standard practice would be for them to revert to danger as soon as the train passed onto the track circuit beyond, which in the major termini would be only a few metres after the signal. In which case they would definitely be at danger by the time the released loco got there.

Sometimes a special control was fitted called "last wheel replacement" which keeps the proceed aspect displayed until the whole train has passed it. You can still see this at Derby. However the main reason for installing this at a terminus would be to ensure that a driver propelling a train didn't see a signal revert to danger ahead of him - Derby did and probably still does have many trains propelling to the RTC sidings. However propelling to sidings was an alternative to the loco following the train out, and at the stations where locos followed the trains out last wheel replacement probably wasn't necessary and may even have been forbidden (I'd be interested to know).

Absolutely right regarding the last wheel replacement in Derby station.

Propelling from Derby station to Etches Park was allowed in the 80s as long as there was a guard's brake as the rear or next to rear vehicle. The last wheel replacement was so as the driver, being unable to see the guard as the curvature of the line prevented it, would have the reassurance of a clear signal when his loco reached it. If however there was no rear brake, a shunt engine or run-round was required.

Before that, propelling was universally allowed until a loco-hauled train propelling from platform 2 to Etches Park had the signal put back on it when it failed to move. The route timed out (2 mins) and then a route was cleared for a a 2-car Class 114 (Lincoln) DMU to leave Platform 3 for Nottingham. You can guess what happened next - both trains moved and met in sidelong collision over London Road Junction!

There was also a propelling incident (not in the station but badly affecting it) with a train of brand-new Mk 3 coaches en route (as 5A12 0820 Derby EP - Willesden CS), out of the works being propelled out of Etches Park, running past DY428 at danger and straight through the middle of a Class 7 Tinsley - Severn Tunnel freight passing over London Road Junction on the goods lines.! It didn't do the brand new coaches a lot of good and the regulations were then changed so as DY428 had to be cleared for all propelled movements out of EP towards the good line.

After the mid 80s no propelling was allowed at Derby Station at all - shunt engines were employed to dispose of loco-hauled trains but by this time they were getting much fewer in number as HSTs were being introduced.

At St. Pancras too in those days, all trains were re-engined and the "bank" engine as it was called (the loco at the buffer stops) would follow the train out at a respectful distance. The signals there were "first wheel replacement", i.e. the track circuit controlling that signal started immediately after it and thus the signal would revert to danger immediately it was occupied by the first wheels of the departing train. Thus the the driver of the bank engine would never mistake the platform signal cleared for the train as being for him.

 

[eps200]

Really stupid question but how did they get the loco the right way around?

New Brighton still has what where loco release lines, since changed to sidings for overnight stabling, I can't for the life of me figure out how it rotates 180, I presume they didn't run locos down the line backwards.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm pretty sure that about 6 years ago there was still a loco release at one of the platforms at London Bridge (Southern side). I was surprised to spot it given that London Bridge probably hasn't seen a Loco hauled service in a very long time!

I would imagine it has gone by now in the rebuild.

It was still there fairly recently - someone was asking in this forum why it was still there, and what would it have been used for, within the last year or so. And here's a picture from Jan last year:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/deepgreen2009/8410037431/

 

[Taunton]

I presume they didn't run locos down the line backwards.

They most certainly did!

On the Fenchurch Street to Shoeburyness line, for example, steam locos worked equal amounts of their daily mileage running forwards and in reverse. I believe the only reason you don't see a lot of it in old photos is that photographers preferred to snap locos from the front heading forward rather than in reverse.

the shunter giving handsignals to the driver, I've seen allsorts being used, newspapers, rags, paper towels

I had much misspent youth at my namesake station watching terminating trains from Minehead, Barnstaple, Exeter locals, etc, doing exactly this across the layout at the west end of the station all day long. All these incoming trains arrived on the up side, then were later shunted across to the down side, in a way I can't think happens anywhere nowadays. Sometimes a pilot engine was provided if, after the train engine was released, the stock was then to be propelled straight into the departure bays, other times, notably if the stock was to be put into the dead-end sidings outside the station, this couldn't be done.

Regarding the incoming loco following a train out very closely, I do believe this was stopped after a collision, which could be envisaged should the main train stop suddenly, for example if the communication cord was pulled. Air braked trains stopped a lot quicker in such circumstances than their vacuum braked predecessors.

 

[w0033944]

Really stupid question but how did they get the loco the right way around?

New Brighton still has what where loco release lines, since changed to sidings for overnight stabling, I can't for the life of me figure out how it rotates 180, I presume they didn't run locos down the line backwards.

What sort of locos do you mean? Most diesel/AC electric locos had a cab at both ends, and those which did not either had a narrow bonnet giving similar forward visibility to that of a steam loco (where the crew would have sightlines along the boiler), this being the case for classes 15, 16 and 20, or a central cab with small bonnets at either end (Classes 14 and 17). In the case of steam locos, tank designs were usually designed to haul trains either bunker-first or boiler-first, so had reasonable sightlines in either direction. Tender designs were less well-suited to running backwards (i.e. tender-first), but they were usually turned on station turntables or used triangular junctions for the same purpose.

 

[poshfan]

Sorry, but not correct.Speaking with my ex-Nottingham power controllers hat on, none of the Sheffield - London via Nottingham trains were booked to run round in the 70s and 80s.

Oh, right. Assumed it was a run round as the original loco disappeared under the bridge and another one that looked the same came back after what seemed the right amount of time to switch tracks. Still interesting to watch though (especially to a 16 year old).
On another occasion, about the same time, I travelled from Leicester to Carlisle on a Saturdays only Leicester to Glasgow via S&C and G&SWR train (on weekdays, it started at Nottingham). That train reversed twice, at Nottingham and at Leeds. I always assumed those were run rounds but maybe not. Made the trip just to get the S&C in which was proposed for closure at the time. Came back WCML and Nuneaton.
I particularly remember there was a queue at the ticket office at Leicester 10 mins before departure and several passengers were in a panic as the train was already at the platform and had been announced, they seemed to think it might leave early, guess they though it had come up from London.

 

[G0ORC]

Oh, right. Assumed it was a run round as the original loco disappeared under the bridge and another one that looked the same came back after what seemed the right amount of time to switch tracks. Still interesting to watch though (especially to a 16 year old).
On another occasion, about the same time, I travelled from Leicester to Carlisle on a Saturdays only Leicester to Glasgow via S&C and G&SWR train (on weekdays, it started at Nottingham). That train reversed twice, at Nottingham and at Leeds. I always assumed those were run rounds but maybe not. Made the trip just to get the S&C in which was proposed for closure at the time. Came back WCML and Nuneaton.
I particularly remember there was a queue at the ticket office at Leicester 10 mins before departure and several passengers were in a panic as the train was already at the platform and had been announced, they seemed to think it might leave early, guess they though it had come up from London.

Presumably you are talking about "The Thames-Clyde Express" 1S68 0800 St Pancras - Glasgow about 0930-ish from Leicester. This and the night "Scotsman" were slight oddities and not in the normal Sheffield - London batch of diagrams and were I think self contained.

It was, and I'm stretching my memory now, booked a A Class 45/1 (or was it a 47?) from London - Nottingham, another Class 45/1 to Leeds and a Class 47 ETH from Leeds - Glasgow. Going back a bit further it was dual heat stock and Class 45/0's and Class 47/0 were used as long as a secondman was available to operate the loco boiler.

Sorry for going off topic a bit...

 

[Tomnick]

Just a quick one regarding locos at the buffer stops following their trains out as far as the platform starter, in response to a couple of posts. I'm not sure that it was ever 'banned' as such, at least not in the 90s; although I can't find any reference to it in the Rule Book after a fairly quick look, I'm fairly sure that it was permitted (generally) in the rules at least until the last year or so. Can anyone confirm or tell me that I'm talking rubbish?

 

[Railsigns]

What will the layout be at Tweedbank? It was going to be a single line wasn't it until the Scottish Gov confirmed it would be able to accommodate excursions...anyone know?

The proposed layout for Tweedbank station has always comprised two platform lines, one either side of an island platform. There will be no run-round facility. The only change to accommodate excursion trains was to increase the distance between the points and the buffer stops.

 

[Essexman]

One of my childhood memories of trains is watching trains depart from Paddington with the loco from the buffer end following it down the platform. Would have been mid to later 1960s.

 

[LexyBoy]

Don't know if it's still done, but some regional services in Paris were hauled out by a new loco with the terminus-end loco uncoupled but following a few tens of metres behind (presumably to a siding beyond the end of the station to await the next service). Looked pretty efficient but I did think that it wouldn't happen in the UK, even if we did still have loco-hauled services.

 

[dysonsphere]

There used to be a station with a turntable at the buffer end of the platforms which was used to turn the loco and put it onto a differant road im sure it was in Kent if fell out of used with DMU coming into use I think it was pretty unique. Cant find a pic Im sure someone will have one.

 

[G0ORC]

Just a quick one regarding locos at the buffer stops following their trains out as far as the platform starter, in response to a couple of posts. I'm not sure that it was ever 'banned' as such, at least not in the 90s; although I can't find any reference to it in the Rule Book after a fairly quick look, I'm fairly sure that it was permitted (generally) in the rules at least until the last year or so. Can anyone confirm or tell me that I'm talking rubbish?

No, you are correct but the regulations were not in the rule book.

Because the rules were "location specific" they were generally either in the Sectional Appendix or the monthly notice which amended it.

It depended on the signalling, length of platform and the curvature of the platform, so hard and fast rules could not be made.

I remember the SA entry for St. Pancras specified that the driver of the bank engine must observe the platform signal revert to danger and clear again for his movement. This despite the fact that the station signalling was first wheel replacement and it would have been almost impossible for a driver on a loco at the buffer stops, with a train in front of him to actually see the signal concerned!

 

[Leylandlad]

The proposed layout for Tweedbank station has always comprised two platform lines, one either side of an island platform. There will be no run-round facility. The only change to accommodate excursion trains was to increase the distance between the points and the buffer stops.

That's why I'm a bit puzzled about the layout, because Borders rail website are still showing Tweedbank as 1 platform :-?

http://www.bordersrailway.co.uk/stations/tweedbank.aspx

An island platform with 2 lines I would have said is 2 platforms...perhaps it's to keep the accountants happy

 

[poshfan]

Presumably you are talking about "The Thames-Clyde Express" 1S68 0800 St Pancras - Glasgow about 0930-ish from Leicester.

No that was before my time. When I took my trip the St Pancras - Glasgow through services had been stopped, but there were still I think 3 services to Glasgow that started from Nottingham, and on Saturdays one of these started from Leicester. I believe these were the only services over the S&C at the time.

 

[G0ORC]

No that was before my time. When I took my trip the St Pancras - Glasgow through services had been stopped, but there were still I think 3 services to Glasgow that started from Nottingham, and on Saturdays one of these started from Leicester. I believe these were the only services over the S&C at the time.

Yes, that's right. The service was run down thus :

St Pancras - Glasgow St. Enoch (1 daytime service each way and 1 night service each way i/c sleepers from London)
St.Pancras - Glasgow Central (1 daytime service (1S68 0800 ex St.P) and 1 night service (1S24 2130 ex St. P) i/c sleepers from Nottingham)
Nottingham - Glasgow Central (1 day service (1S68 1020 ex Nottm), night service became parcels/mail only (3S24 2354 Nottingham - Glasgow and later 3E24 2354 Nottingham - Leeds)
Nottingham - Leeds (several services daily operated by EP Class 150/1 units from new)

Sad but true...

 

[CallySleeper]

In Fort William, the morning sleeper arrival, and other loco/steam hauled make use of the run-round facility on platform 1. (The ECS for the evening departure simply shunts into the platform).

At Euston, a class 90 usually brings the sleeper in and is detached before departure.

At Kings Cross in the 70s / 80s before HSTs, I believe an incoming loco was detached from the front and then used to propel another outgoing train.

I would be very interested if anyone had any pictures especially or any other info. regarding loco run-rounds/other shunt movements in Nottingham from the 1970s/80s/90s.

 

[poshfan]

Here's some you tube footage of a class 31 running round at Mablethorpe in 1970, at which time the station was a terminus, the line up to Louth having closed in 1951.
[youtube]zztkpCfZWTQ[/youtube]

 

[QJ]

There was a variant at some terminus stations on the practice of the engine off the inbound working following the outbound working up the platform.

This was for the inbound loco to assist the outbound locomotive by shoving the outbound train out of the station without being coupled to the train. This occurred where there was a gradient against the departing train.

In the 1970s and 1980s this practice could be observed at Glasgow Queen Street station. The inbound loco would bank the train for a mile or so out of the station through the tunnel up the Cowlairs bank. It would then stop at the designated location, once the train it was assisting picked up enough speed, to either wait for permission to run light engine to Eastfield Depot, Cowlairs Carriage Sidings or back to the station for its next working.

No doubt this occurred in the days of steam at Glasgow Queen Street and other stations such as London Euston and Kings Cross to assist with departure of heavy trains. It definitely occurred at London Waterloo station where the outbound train was given a shove by the inbound loco. The loco would then retreat light engine tender first to Nine Elms shed to be turned and prepared for its next working. The practice of giving a helping hand to the outbound working can still be observed at London Victoria when the VSOE and steam loco charters run.

In my experience the run round loops that were located at major main line termini saw very litle use to release locos to run round passenger trains. There was usually another loco hanging around to power the outbound working or shunt release the inbound loco if that was to work the outbound service. From my experience the run round points were usually used at night for engineers trains or parcels trains and the like. Very occasionally the last services of the day might do so if there was no relieving engine available or when services were badly disrupted and there was no alternative.

When the commuter trains ran to and from London Bridge the empty coaching stock was taken away or brought in with locos at both ends. In the evening the country end loco on the ECS worked the first train out whilst the London end loco waited at the signal for the second stock to arrive before working that service. The loco left behind then worked the next train out. All very efficient and could be done very quickly (much quicker than the claimed 9 minutes used to justify the bi-mode train sets on order for the UK railways). Proof of that could be viewed at many of the termini stations in Germany and Switzerland before driving trailers became the fashion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There was a variant at some terminus stations on the practice of the engine off the inbound working following the outbound working up the platform.

This was for the inbound loco to assist the outbound locomotive by shoving the outbound train out of the station without being coupled to the train. This occurred where there was a gradient against the departing train.

In the 1970s and 1980s this practice could be observed at Glasgow Queen Street station. The inbound loco would bank the train for a mile or so out of the station through the tunnel up the Cowlairs bank. It would then stop at the designated location, once the tarin it was assisting picked up enough speed, to either wait for permission to run light engine to Eastfield Depot, Cowlairs Carriage Sidings or back to the station for its next working.

No doubt this occurred in the days of steam at Glasgow Queen Street and other stations such as London Euston and Kings Cross to assist with departure of heavy trains. It definitely occurred at London Waterloo station where the outbound train was given a shove by the inbound loco. The loco would then retreat light engine tender first to Nine Elms shed to be turned and prepared for its next working. The practice of giving a helping hand to the outbound working can still be observed at London Victoria when the VSOE and steam loco charters run.

The run round loops that were located at main line termini saw very litle use to release locos to run round passenger trains. There was usually another loco hanging around to power the outbound working or shunt release the inbound loco if that was to work the outbound working. From my experience the run round points were usually used at night for engineers trains. That is not to say that it never occurred of course.

When the commuter trains ran to and from London Bridge the empty coaching stock was taken away or brought in with locos at both ends. In the evening the country end loco on the ECS worked the first train out whilst the London end loco waited at the signal for the second stock to arrive before working that service. The loco left behind then worked the next train out. All very efficient and could be done very quickly (much quicker than the claimed 9 minutes used to justify the bi-mode train sets on order for the UK railways). Proof of that could be viewed at many of the termini stations in Germany and Switzerland before driving trailers became the fashion.

 

[matchmaker]

At Glasgow Queen Street the original loco was often used to bank the departing service up Cowlairs Incline.

Whoops - just read the last post!

 

[D1009]

Yes, that's right. The service was run down thus :

St Pancras - Glasgow St. Enoch (1 daytime service each way and 1 night service each way i/c sleepers from London)
St.Pancras - Glasgow Central (1 daytime service (1S68 0800 ex St.P) and 1 night service (1S24 2130 ex St. P) i/c sleepers from Nottingham)
Nottingham - Glasgow Central (1 day service (1S68 1020 ex Nottm), night service became parcels/mail only (3S24 2354 Nottingham - Glasgow and later 3E24 2354 Nottingham - Leeds)
Nottingham - Leeds (several services daily operated by EP Class 150/1 units from new)

Sad but true...

In it's last days the night train ran from Euston via the Northampton - Market Harborough line. It was the only regular diesel worked passenger train out of Euston at the time, usually a 45.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was a variant at some terminus stations on the practice of the engine off the inbound working following the outbound working up the platform.

This was for the inbound loco to assist the outbound locomotive by shoving the outbound train out of the station without being coupled to the train. This occurred where there was a gradient against the departing train.

Definitely the case pre electrification at Liverpool Lime Street where the engine that had worked the empty stock, often a "Jinty" tank used to assist the departing train out of the station. Can't remember whether the starting signal remained off for this purpose.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

In the final days of Kings Cross suburban services running through to Moorgate via York Road what was the procedure with the 31s at the terminus?

 

[L&Y Robert]

This was for the inbound loco to assist the outbound locomotive by shoving the outbound train out of the station without being coupled to the train. This occurred where there was a gradient against the departing train.

Yes, at Euston in the late 50s early 60s. A pannier tank (I think) used to bring the rake (often 10 or 11 coaches for Manchester) down into the departure platform and sit there agaist the buffers. Then when the train engine was attached, and we were ready to go there would be (I think I remember, but I'm guessing!) a series olf whistle codes, and off we'd go, train engine heaving at the front, pannier shoving from the back, all the way up the hill. I recollect seeing a cross-over, and maybe a centre lay-by line, to hold the bankers until they could trundle back to the carriage sidings to bring out the next departure. It happened often enough for me to assume it was standard practice with the long trains.

 

[Taunton]

In the final days of Kings Cross suburban services running through to Moorgate via York Road what was the procedure with the 31s at the terminus?

I think in the last diesel years all dmus were used, the Cravens low-density ones, quite unsuited for suburban work but they were on short 57' underframes which suited the curves and short platforms going down to Moorgate marshalled as 6-car sets. However, before this loco-hauled stock was used, in fact in the first years of dieselisation they were still using the LNER articulated coaches.

Procedure in say the morning was, firstly, a light diesel ran down from Finsbury Park and stood in the short siding just outside the platform. Then the first train ran down, this diesel backed on to the train and took it out to the sidings at Hornsey, the incoming train loco going into the siding. Next train in, that loco then backed on and took the stock out, and so on and so on. Last train of the morning was taken out, the loco left then followed light back to the shed.

Remember that every loco was double-manned with driver and fireman (who tended the steam train heating boiler), there was a shunter at both ends of the platform to do the coupling, guard on each train - it was all very labour intensive.

 

[6Gman]

This was for the inbound loco to assist the outbound locomotive by shoving the outbound train out of the station without being coupled to the train. This occurred where there was a gradient against the departing train.

Yes, at Euston in the late 50s early 60s. A pannier tank (I think) used to bring the rake (often 10 or 11 coaches for Manchester) down into the departure platform and sit there agaist the buffers. Then when the train engine was attached, and we were ready to go there would be (I think I remember, but I'm guessing!) a series olf whistle codes, and off we'd go, train engine heaving at the front, pannier shoving from the back, all the way up the hill. I recollect seeing a cross-over, and maybe a centre lay-by line, to hold the bankers until they could trundle back to the carriage sidings to bring out the next departure. It happened often enough for me to assume it was standard practice with the long trains.

The Premier Line had little taste for Pannier Tanks! I think it would have been a Side Tank - Pannier Tanks were more the choice of the Great Way Round.

 

[The Crab]

Yes, at Euston in the late 50s early 60s. A pannier tank (I think) used to bring the rake (often 10 or 11 coaches for Manchester) down into the departure platform and sit there agaist the buffers. Then when the train engine was attached, and we were ready to go there would be (I think I remember, but I'm guessing!) a series olf whistle codes, and off we'd go, train engine heaving at the front, pannier shoving from the back, all the way up the hill

What you describe as a "(w)olf whistle" was probably a "crow". If you look for videos of the Lickey incline you may hear the banking engine giving a "crow" to announce that it is buffered up to the train and the train engine giving a similar call in acknowledgement. In practice there were variations but something like long-short-short-short-long-long gives an idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really stupid question but how did they get the loco the right way around?

New Brighton still has what where loco release lines, since changed to sidings for overnight stabling, I can't for the life of me figure out how it rotates 180, I presume they didn't run locos down the line backwards.

I never remember seeing a tender engine on the New Brighton line. If I remember correctly, incoming steam excursions would have the tender engine replaced by a 2-6-4T at Bidston, the long-distance engine would be turned when it was serviced. Engines could be turned on the triangle at Bidston or at Birkenhead, Mollington St shed.

I remember seeing a Royal train up the branch headed by two 2-6-4Ts. I presume that tender-first running would be avoided on Royal duties, even on the empty stock. I would be interested to know what the run-round arrangements were in this case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, at Euston in the late 50s early 60s. A pannier tank (I think) used to bring the rake (often 10 or 11 coaches for Manchester) down into the departure platform and sit there agaist the buffers. Then when the train engine was attached, and we were ready to go there would be (I think I remember, but I'm guessing!) a series olf whistle codes, and off we'd go, train engine heaving at the front, pannier shoving from the back, all the way up the hill

What you describe as a "(w)olf whistle" was probably a "crow". If you look for videos of the Lickey incline you may hear the banking engine giving a "crow" to announce that it is buffered up to the train and the train engine giving a similar call in acknowledgement. In practice there were variations but something like long-short-short-short-long-long gives an idea.

 

[RichmondCommu]

In it's last days the night train ran from Euston via the Northampton - Market Harborough line. It was the only regular diesel worked passenger train out of Euston at the time, usually a 45.

I'm interested to know why the train ran from Euston? I can only assume that it was to ensure that all the sleeper's were maintained at the same place i.e. Wembley.

At this point it's also worth remembering that class 25's were used as station pilots at Euston in the 1970's.

 

[6Gman]

I'm interested to know why the train ran from Euston? I can only assume that it was to ensure that all the sleeper's were maintained at the same place i.e. Wembley.

At this point it's also worth remembering that class 25's were used as station pilots at Euston in the 1970's.

And before then 24s, and before them does anybody else remember Class 20s on Euston ECS moves?

(I'm feeling old!)