Same destination, same departure time, same train company

[swt_passenger]

I doubt there would be many people. Maybe a few unfamiliar people who did not use trains in that area much. But i doubt it caused much of a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2022 ==


There was definitely one daily Northbound through service and one daily Southbound through service in each direction. I clearly remember them both. Although i believe the Northbound service was withdrawn quite a few years before the Southbound service was withdrawn.

Yes, that’s what I remember and was trying to say, but I’ve just checked the 2004, 2006 and 2007 SX CWNs and none of them show an up service. So the last up must have been in 2003 or earlier. I’ve made my earlier post clearer I hope.

I doubt if enough people would have been confused to get seriously worried about...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I thought that was where Scotland played its home matches...

It is, but the nearest railway station to Hampden Park stadium in Glasgow is 'Mount Florida'.

The place in Glasgow is apparently named after John Hampden, a roundhead soldier in the English Civil War, whereas the locality in East Sussex is named after a Viscount Hampden, the grandfather of a Lord Willingdon, who sold the land to Eastbourne Corporation (to build a public park) at or around the turn of the 19th/20th century.

 

[ashkeba]

At the level of confusion suggested by the poster I was replying to, train number 471 will be confused with train number 823.

I think it's much more difficulty to confuse 471 and 823 than to mishear "Newark Castle" as "Newcastle", especially if you didn't know Newark has more than one station and one is called Castle.

 

[zwk500]

I think it's much more difficulty to confuse 471 and 823 than to mishear "Newark Castle" as "Newcastle", especially if you didn't know Newark has more than one station and one is called Castle.

Well the poster was originally claiming that somebody could confuse 'eleven' for 'fourteen' and was subsequently defended by claims that the operator would be totally disregarded by the majority of customers. If they're going to ignore 'this service is operated by East Midlands Railway' they're probably going to ignore 'this is Train EMT521 ...'

I think train numbers are good, I just don't think that they'll instantly eliminate confusion and misunderstanding across the network.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Well the poster was originally claiming that somebody could confuse 'eleven' for 'fourteen' and was subsequently defended by claims that the operator would be totally disregarded by the majority of customers. If they're going to ignore 'this service is operated by East Midlands Railway' they're probably going to ignore 'this is Train EMT521 ...'

I think train numbers are good, I just don't think that they'll instantly eliminate confusion and misunderstanding across the network.

"Meaningful" information - such as departure time and destination - is much easier for anyone to keep in their mind when checking departure signs than a more random string of digits/letters as in a train number. So the former will always be the most useful information to show (and information that people need anyway), whether or not there are train numbers as well. Just as someone can learn text that is meaningful much more easily than a string of random words. A "train number" might help on those very rare occasions that are being talked about here (ie with two services leaving for the same destination at the same time); but for the remaining 99%+ of the time that extra information is superfluous and therefore is more likely to lead to information overload and confusion than to be helpful.

I'm trying to imagine someone armed primarily with a train number for the service they want, who's at a busy station looking at departure boards - would the departure list be in order of train number rather than departure time, so they can find it?!

 

[Scotrail314209]

One thing I do recall was prior to COVID, when TransPennine ran Edinburgh to Manchester Airport services via Newcastle and Leeds.

There was an 0812 Edinburgh to Manchester Airport via Carlisle, as well as an 0812 Edinburgh to Manchester Airport via York.

I can’t imagine how many passengers may have ended up on the wrong train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Meaningful" information - such as departure time and destination - is much easier for anyone to keep in their mind when checking departure signs than a more random string of digits/letters as in a train number. So the former will always be the most useful information to show (and information that people need anyway), whether or not there are train numbers as well. Just as someone can learn text that is meaningful much more easily than a string of random words. A "train number" might help on those very rare occasions that are being talked about here (ie with two services leaving for the same destination at the same time); but for the remaining 99%+ of the time that extra information is superfluous and therefore is more likely to lead to information overload and confusion than to be helpful.

I'm trying to imagine someone armed primarily with a train number for the service they want, who's at a busy station looking at departure boards - would the departure list be in order of train number rather than departure time, so they can find it?!

You speak as if hundreds of thousands of people got confused at airports worldwide on a daily basis.

 

[Spartacus]

If someone can mistake North Berwick for Berwick Upon Tweed, Liverpool Lime Street for London Liverpool Street or Newcastle for Newark Castle, I’m more than certain they can confuse train number 230 for train 213 or 213 for 231. I use those examples as I know they’re local bus services that have caused confusion in the past. People who think train numbers will solve problems don’t see the new problems they will cause.

 

[Phil56]

You speak as if hundreds of thousands of people got confused at airports worldwide on a daily basis.

And bus stations.
I don't understand why so many people are against the introduction of route numbers on signage/timetables for trains.

 

[zero]

Just because some people speak English natively, know all UK station names and routes by heart, have perfect hearing even in noisy environments and have perfect recall of several strings of numbers after looking at them once on a tiny screen, while struggling up stairs with heavy luggage 5 minutes before they think their next train departs from a station with 10 platforms that they are visiting for the first time after a night of little sleep, doesn't mean everyone does.

 

[duncanp]

It's possible for anybody to confuse anything but there is not a lot more that the railway can do than schedule trains to different destinations at different times with different operators! Are we now to rename every station on the network such that it could never possibly be confused with any other on the network?

Of course not.

People who are unfamiliar with the rail network will always make inadvertent mistakes.

I was once passing through Kings Cross station early in the morning, and someone stopped me an asked why the train to Nottingham (due in 10 minutes time) was not showing on the departure screen.

I told him that the Nottingham trains left from St Pancras, and pointed him in the right direction.

Similarly at Kings Cross I have had people ask me where the Eurostar check in is situated.

 

[zwk500]

Of course not.

People who are unfamiliar with the rail network will always make inadvertent mistakes.

I was once passing through Kings Cross station early in the morning, and someone stopped me an asked why the train to Nottingham (due in 10 minutes time) was not showing on the departure screen.

I told him that the Nottingham trains left from St Pancras, and pointed him in the right direction.

Similarly at Kings Cross I have had people ask me where the Eurostar check in is situated.

Of course these things will happen, but there is no operational thing that can be done about it other than use clear signage and have staff available to help. This thread was started to discuss the specific situation where somebody even reasonably familiar with the network could legitimately confuse 2 trains departing at the same time to the same place by the same operator, where the only difference would be in the calling pattern.

Solving general confusion around the network is a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[ashkeba]

Just as someone can learn text that is meaningful much more easily than a string of random words.

The operating company is not meaningful to non enthusiasts. Often half the destination name is not meaningful because they don't care if is Kings Cross or Liverpool Street as long as it's London and if that is not their destination then even that may not be meaningful. So you are left with the time as part meaningful, which is a four digit number. Not really much easier to remember than a four digit train number and much more fragile because trains with similar departure times tend to depart around the same time and be on station information signs together.

If train numbers don't help, why do most major railway networks use them?

 

[The exile]

And no, we don't want train ID numbers, regardless of what airlines, Germany, or Hong Kong, might do.

why not? Because we’re British….?

 

[MaidaVale]

I've had this issue before at Leicester with EMR (This was in 2019, Unsure if a similar issue still exists)

There is/was two services departing between 3-5 minutes from each other, on the same platform, Both EMR Intercity services leaving from the same platform with the same destination of London St Pancras, However one calls(ed) at Kettering and other more local stops, with the other going direct straight through. The result of this issue ended in someone I know (Not hugely knowledgeable on the railway network) boarding the EMR St Pancras service 5 minutes before the one they meant to, meaning to alight at Kettering, yet ending up in London St Pancras as it sped straight through.

The boards on the footbridge at Leicester are the vertical sort that display a non-scrolling list of calling points that span across two pages. He assumed that it was just on page 2 of the service he meant to board, with it just saying London St Pancras as the calling point (as it usually does on page 2) and boarded the wrong train.

I beleive this issue may have been sorted out by now, Although it's caused confusion multiple times with people I know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just because some people speak English natively, know all UK station names and routes by heart, have perfect hearing even in noisy environments and have perfect recall of several strings of numbers after looking at them once on a tiny screen, while struggling up stairs with heavy luggage 5 minutes before they think their next train departs from a station with 10 platforms that they are visiting for the first time after a night of little sleep, doesn't mean everyone does.

However, pretty much everybody in an airport manages to see FR1234 on their boarding card and find FR1234 on the screens, and use that to go to the correct gate.

 

[miklcct]

This thread was started to discuss the specific situation where somebody even reasonably familiar with the network could legitimately confuse 2 trains departing at the same time to the same place by the same operator, where the only difference would be in the calling pattern.

The operating company is not meaningful to non enthusiasts. Often half the destination name is not meaningful because they don't care if is Kings Cross or Liverpool Street as long as it's London and if that is not their destination then even that may not be meaningful. So you are left with the time as part meaningful, which is a four digit number. Not really much easier to remember than a four digit train number and much more fragile because trains with similar departure times tend to depart around the same time and be on station information signs together.

If train numbers don't help, why do most major railway networks use them?

There was a severe disruption today and I was trying to change trains. I rushed to the platform and the board at Woking platform 5 showed "Portsmouth Harbour" as the destination, but the train itself showed "London Waterloo". I was going to Guildford so I knew I needed to look for the calling stops, as there are 2 possible routes. So I was confused at the train door. However the delayed train was ready to depart that the guard needed to clear the platform edge, and he needed to know if I was to board the train or not, so I asked loudly that if the train went to Haslemere, which the guard responded a firm no.

It turned out that the train was a suburban train to Basingstoke. If the platform information display showed some other destinations such as Havant, Haslemere or Guildford, I would have boarded the train immediately; and I would be doomed as the train was for Basingstoke.

In the automated announcements, a "via point" would be spoken, but it was not displayed prominently at the platform plate, neither on the 450 trains as well. This is very confusing if one misses the automated platform announcement (or is deaf), and the route is not obvious in any of the displays on the platform or the train.

And in the return journey, I was changing trains again at the same station where the two routes to Portsmouth diverge, and the train at the platform again was a Portsmouth train. Again I didn't have confidence boarding the train and stood at the door until I saw the calling stations scroll through the platform display and on the 444 on-board display (as there was severe disruption the timetable was useless to identify the trains).

If some forms of route number were used (such as 81xx for Portsmouth Harbour via Guildford and 84xx for Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh) I would not be confused. Otherwise, only by showing "via Guildford" or "via Eastleigh" along the destination, on the platform display, on the train (both outside and inside), everywhere where the word Portsmouth is shown, and announced repeatedly multiple times while the train is making a station call by looping "This train is for Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh" non-stop, I can have confidence knowing the route while I'm rushing trains when the timetable can't be followed.

Normally, the operating company can be useful because it can be used to identify the route (e.g. a CrossCountry train will not go to London), but at Woking, all trains are operated by SWR and the stocks used on both Portsmouth routes are also the same. However, the destination is completely meaningless here, as there are 2 routes to Portsmouth, comparable to the situation where there are 3 routes to Waterloo from Guildford. And at Woking, trains via both routes can depart at both platforms - trains via Eastleigh depart at platform 4 normally but platform 5 can also be used in case of disruption, and trains via Guildford depart mostly from platform 5 but some of them are booked to use platform 4.

 

[BayPaul]

However, pretty much everybody in an airport manages to see FR1234 on their boarding card and find FR1234 on the screens, and use that to go to the correct gate.

Really? I certainly don't work like that. Why would I remember a meaningless string of characters when I can just look for Ryanair to Barcelona and go there instead. Plus, Ryanair is a simple one. When you get on to codeshare flights with three or four numbers, the destination is far clearer. I think this is one that the UK rail system has got just right - the less information the better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? I certainly don't work like that. Why would I remember a meaningless string of characters when I can just look for Ryanair to Barcelona and go there instead. Plus, Ryanair is a simple one. When you get on to codeshare flights with three or four numbers, the destination is far clearer. I think this is one that the UK rail system has got just right - the less information the better.

More than one piece of information improves confidence. If you don't want or need a piece of information, ignore it.

Again, this is British exceptionalism in action - it is very unlikely for us to be right and most of the world to be wrong.

 

[kristiang85]

Really? I certainly don't work like that. Why would I remember a meaningless string of characters when I can just look for Ryanair to Barcelona and go there instead. Plus, Ryanair is a simple one. When you get on to codeshare flights with three or four numbers, the destination is far clearer. I think this is one that the UK rail system has got just right - the less information the better.

Surely a unique four character code is the simplest information you can have on a train info screen? Again, you don't see many confused Europeans at their stations, yet they must be utterly perplexed when they come over here and find the train reference changes at every station it comes to, as we use the time of departure.

For what it's worth, I always use flight codes at airports over any other information.

 

[swr444]

I’d like to point out that you can’t actually reserve a seat on any SWR service anyway

 

[ashkeba]

I’d like to point out that you can’t actually reserve a seat on any SWR service anyway

They do sell specific-train Advance tickets, though, so taking the wrong train can still cause problems.

 

[Wychwood93]

I’d like to point out that you can’t actually reserve a seat on any SWR service anyway

See: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/ticket-types/advance-tickets

Appears reasonably comprehensive.

Re. a couple other posts above - I am another one who does not look initially for a flight number (FRxxxx) - time, destination and airline will suffice.

"The boards on the footbridge at Leicester are the vertical sort that display a non-scrolling list of calling points that span across two pages. He assumed that it was just on page 2 of the service he meant to board, with it just saying London St Pancras as the calling point (as it usually does on page 2) and boarded the wrong train."

Useful here to note if it is 'page 1 of 1' or 'page 1 of 2' - usually in the bottom right corner.

 

[urbophile]

If someone can mistake North Berwick for Berwick Upon Tweed, Liverpool Lime Street for London Liverpool Street or Newcastle for Newark Castle, I’m more than certain they can confuse train number 230 for train 213 or 213 for 231. I use those examples as I know they’re local bus services that have caused confusion in the past. People who think train numbers will solve problems don’t see the new problems they will cause.

"Meaningful" information - such as departure time and destination - is much easier for anyone to keep in their mind when checking departure signs than a more random string of digits/letters as in a train number. So the former will always be the most useful information to show (and information that people need anyway), whether or not there are train numbers as well. Just as someone can learn text that is meaningful much more easily than a string of random words. A "train number" might help on those very rare occasions that are being talked about here (ie with two services leaving for the same destination at the same time); but for the remaining 99%+ of the time that extra information is superfluous and therefore is more likely to lead to information overload and confusion than to be helpful.

I'm trying to imagine someone armed primarily with a train number for the service they want, who's at a busy station looking at departure boards - would the departure list be in order of train number rather than departure time, so they can find it?!

Train numbers would surely be even more helpful where train services are provided by various operators who don't accept each other's tickets. As here in the UK more than most other countries. I tend not to bother about train numbers in France or Italy, but I know they are there as a useful double check that I am on the right train. So much the more here, once people got used to them.

 

[duncanp]

In Belgium, there are stations at Gent and Genk, so even in a country where train numbers are used, that doesn't guarantee that there will be no confusion.

And that is without considering the different French and Flemish place names.

I have been on a train that terminated at Ostend (Ostende, Oostende) and some people were asking where Bruges was. They didn't realise that the Flemish name for Bruges was Brugge, and so remained on the train. Granted these people were in the minority, as most visitors manage to get off at the right station, but it just goes to show that confusion can arise if you are not familiar with the area.

 

[zwk500]

In Belgium, there are stations at Gent and Genk, so even in a country where train numbers are used, that doesn't guarantee that there will be no confusion.

And that is without considering the different French and Flemish place names.

I have been on a train that terminated at Ostend (Ostende, Oostende) and some people were asking where Bruges was. They didn't realise that the Flemish name for Bruges was Brugge, and so remained on the train. Granted these people were in the minority, as most visitors manage to get off at the right station, but it just goes to show that confusion can arise if you are not familiar with the area.

That is a linguistic problem that will always be an issue, but that does not generally apply in the UK as all stations are signed in English

 

[urbophile]

That is a linguistic problem that will always be an issue, but that does not generally apply in the UK as all stations are signed in English

Even in Wales where they are bilingual. Belgium is weird. Apart from Brussels, everything is in the local language, even afaik the names of Flemish cities in French-speaking areas and vice versa.

 

[Phil56]

Certainly easier when using google maps directions abroad (or for buses in the UK) when it tells you the train (bus) number to get onto. No need to worry about terminal nor en-route station names and routes etc. Just look for the number and get on board. (Google has worked out the quickest route so you don't have to worry about whether you're getting a fast or slow service or direct/indirect etc).

 

[BayPaul]

Surely a unique four character code is the simplest information you can have on a train info screen? Again, you don't see many confused Europeans at their stations, yet they must be utterly perplexed when they come over here and find the train reference changes at every station it comes to, as we use the time of departure.

For what it's worth, I always use flight codes at airports over any other information.

I would disagree. It is much easier to confuse say 1A56 and 1A65 than a destination and time pair.

More than one piece of information improves confidence. If you don't want or need a piece of information, ignore it.

Again, this is British exceptionalism in action - it is very unlikely for us to be right and most of the world to be wrong.

I often agree with you about British exceptionalism, but on this one I think we're right. Adding extra unnecessary info to crowded screens, timetables etc means that the useful info needs to be reduced in size, occasionally scroll off the screen or similar. Also, the codes are likely to be easier to confuse than the destination time pair, or potentially confused with the timing (1B45 and 1845 for example)

 

[kristiang85]

I would disagree. It is much easier to confuse say 1A56 and 1A65 than a destination and time pair.

Well we just change the headcodes to TP456 or SW357 depending on the operator. Exactly the same problems happen with timings, going back to the OP. And if someone is in the UK where English isn't their first language, how will they know about 'fast' services or the various other terms used to differentiate the codes?

If there's a column showing codes and a column showing times, it really shouldn't be confused.