Saturdays on the railway in general

[david1212]

Without quoting numerous posts full credit to @LowLevel and others who put themselves forward to work on a Saturday when not rostered particularly later in the day, although from the posts it seems drunkeness and rowdy behavior occuring even before the journey to the match / event is not uncommon.

..... The root cause is of course that electrification has only reached Didcot Parkway not Oxford, which was meant to be the original terminus.

Then you're pulling a 9-car from Wales / Bristol or West of England work. The issue is that its absoutely rammed to Oxford but 80% of people get off there. Probably one of the only suitable places where splitting might be beneficial, as a 5-car is plenty from Oxford - Worcester/Hereford.

At the planning stage when Didcot - Oxford was to be electrified and the fleet of Class 387 EMU's ordered I presumed these would be allocated to the Paddington <> Oxford services then Paddington <> Worcester / Hereford would be 5-car 80x sets. Of course still the issue of the Paddington <> Worcester / Hereford trains serving core stations between Paddington <> Oxford for those travelling beyond Oxford while wanting Paddington <> stations to Oxford passengers to use the EMU's.

 

[SirAlf]

I've followed this thread with interest for the last few days, many conflicting viewpoints and an implication that a lot of Saturday problems are caused by football fans.

I'm a football fan (Chesterfield, but then we've all got problems...) and I also watch England, both football and rugby union, lets not forget that there are plenty of rugby fans who drink well to excess, far more than the average football fan

A small group of us have travelled to most away matches by train since the start of the 18-19 season – a lot of our away matches are in the Home Counties. Pre-pandemic we were big fans of EMR and we were “streetwise” enough to avoid the rowdier fans. EMR had some decent first class deals and we didn't mind paying the extra to use them. We’d have several pints over the day but I like to think we've never caused a problem for rail staff

But in the last year or so its all changed

I've booked trains for away matches only to have to cancel the booking and find alternatives travel because of strikes – and I'm simply stating that as a fact, that's not a dig at the rights and wrongs of the strikes. Then there's engineering work, its probably my imagination but that seems to be happening more than it used to. We've had connecting trains cancelled on us partway through a journey, meaning that we have to find a different way of getting there in a part of the country that we aren't over-familiar with. Any decent first class deals on EMR have vanished into the mist. Reserving seats is a waste of time, more often than not the reservations aren't put up leading to a free-for-all for seats. In summary, we’re paying more than we used to for a lesser service

Travelling to football and rugby by train was my preferred method of getting to the match. Now its becoming more trouble than its worth. I can book on a supporters bus knowing that I'll get to the match and back home without hassle, and probably for less money. National Express will often get me there if there isn't a supporters bus. Where I would always travel by train its now my last choice after I've discounted everything else.

I'm just one regular leisure traveller that doesn't enjoy rail travel any more. But I expect there are many, many thousands like me, who have had bad experiences and say, “never again”. It's needed around 20-30 bad experiences for me to get to that stage because at heart I'm a rail travel fan.

I hope this doesn't come over as a rant, just the thoughts of someone who was a loyal and regular rail customer and now isn't. Its going to take a lot to get me back regularly onto the trains – if anybody cares, that is

 

[gazzaa2]

I'd say there's an ever decreasing amount of football fans using the trains now on matchday because the capacity isn't there to accommodate them. Or be it strikes, reduced timetables, engineering works, or staff shortages they simply can't rely on the trains to actually get them to their destination on time and back home at a reasonable hour (if at all). I seen one clip of hordes of Palace fans having to change at Grantham for Nottingham on Saturday for their away match. Then a 2 car train turns up already full. I think many ended up missing it or got there late

The demand for leisure travel on the weekend is enormous. Services simply can't cope with that demand. Added to the fact when RMT or ASLEF go on strike you can guarantee they'll pick a Saturday

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I'd say there's an ever decreasing amount of football fans using the trains now on matchday because the capacity isn't there to accommodate them. Or be it strikes, reduced timetables, engineering works, or staff shortages they simply can't rely on the trains to actually get them to their destination on time and back home at a reasonable hour (if at all). I seen one clip of hordes of Palace fans having to change at Grantham for Nottingham on Saturday for their away match. Then a 2 car train turns up already full. I think many ended up missing it or got there late

The demand for leisure travel on the weekend is enormous. Services simply can't cope with that demand. Added to the fact when RMT or ASLEF go on strike you can guarantee they'll pick a Saturday

I think this is really area dependant. Across the Midlands and on the Trent we still have huge numbers of sports fans as well as a missive increase in leisure travel in general. But then our capacity is the same as precovid with just the Liverpool service having a reduction in number of services but doubled up.

I know we're talking a lot about football fans as reasons to not work RDW on Saturday's, but that's because the other demographic that causes issues (drunks) is already something that is proactively policed at high risk stations whereas the football demographic currently isn't.

 

[Bikeman78]

Additionally, most football fans are just regular people that you wouldn’t even know were football fans, if the railway provides an inadequate service to them on a weekend, when it comes to making their business/leisure journey decisions during the rest of the week, their opinion is likely to be already tainted against using the railway, which is something of a vicious cycle.

I agree that not all football fans are hooligans. I once ended up at Paddington later than planned, thanks to a Eurostar farce, so I coincided with hundreds of Swansea fans travelling home. I got on a relief HST that was first stop Newport and also got a free upgrade to first class. The whole train was treated as standard only. What's not to like? The fans were absolutely fine.

Cardiff city centre is horrible on Friday and Saturday nights. Drunks everywhere. The buses virtually have to plough through them. I won't entertain the idea of going out in the centre on Friday or Saturday.

 

[gazzaa2]

I think this is really area dependant. Across the Midlands and on the Trent we still have huge numbers of sports fans as well as a missive increase in leisure travel in general. But then our capacity is the same as precovid with just the Liverpool service having a reduction in number of services but doubled up.

I know we're talking a lot about football fans as reasons to not work RDW on Saturday's, but that's because the other demographic that causes issues (drunks) is already something that is proactively policed at high risk stations whereas the football demographic currently isn't.

Even then though it's a nightmare getting out of Villa Park by train (huge queues at Witton) and Wolverhampton station tends to be carnage after a Wolves home game and both clubs are looking to expand their grounds. Although the LNWR are one of the more reliable TOCs a lot of fans use the likes of Cross Country or Avanti to get to those grounds for home games (or as away fans) and their services are a mixture of either unreliable, reduced or short of rolling stock. Failing TOCs have also put more pressure on the capacity of LNWR (as anyone who has travelled to Euston on them recently will testify, particularly weekends.

Then in the East Mids you've often got 2 car trains turning up on the stopper services into Nottingham and Derby for their home games.

Even before Covid there was big capacity issues building up.

I agree that not all football fans are hooligans. I once ended up at Paddington later than planned, thanks to a Eurostar farce, so I coincided with hundreds of Swansea fans travelling home. I got on a relief HST that was first stop Newport and also got a free upgrade to first class. The whole train was treated as standard only. What's not to like? The fans were absolutely fine.

I think football fans on trains are often treated as caged animals on crush loaded trains and packed out stations (particularly fans of well supported clubs who travel in numbers). That's often where you get the problems. When rail travel is more civilised (i.e. everyone gets a seat and some personal space and the trains are reasonably punctual and reliable) then problems are far fewer.

 

[dk1]

Here in in the East we are pretty well catered for with GA & it’s larger fleet with higher capacity which cope well on football days with relief trains frequently operated on both weekday evenings and Saturdays. Unfortunately EMR let the side down & try to double up the busiest trains but more often than not they simply don’t have the fleet availability to do so. Football days seem as busy as they ever did here.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Even then though it's a nightmare getting out of Villa Park by train (huge queues at Witton) and Wolverhampton station tends to be carnage after a Wolves home game and both clubs are looking to expand their grounds. Although the LNWR are one of the more reliable TOCs a lot of fans use the likes of Cross Country or Avanti to get to those grounds for home games (or as away fans) and their services are a mixture of either unreliable, reduced or short of rolling stock. Failing TOCs have also put more pressure on the capacity of LNWR (as anyone who has travelled to Euston on them recently will testify, particularly weekends.

Then in the East Mids you've often got 2 car trains turning up on the stopper services into Nottingham and Derby for their home games.

Even before Covid there was big capacity issues building up.



I think football fans on trains are often treated as caged animals on crush loaded trains and packed out stations (particularly fans of well supported clubs who travel in numbers). That's often where you get the problems. When rail travel is more civilised (i.e. everyone gets a seat and some personal space and the trains are reasonably punctual and reliable) then problems are far fewer.

Absolutely, Wolves is the worst on our routes currently for behaviour with egress and passcoms in particular being abused.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Also throw in travelling to London - and presumably other major cities - for concerts has become hit and miss for trains. The last thing you want is for the last trains you can get home being delayed and cancelled.

Some of these things are booked a year in advance and difficult to anticipate train strikes or the general state of the railways that far in advance.

 

[Runningaround]

VAR causing games to go over 5 - 10 mins injury time doesn't help if you are pushing it for your train, you are missing even more of the game or having to book later services which might not even turn up and with more games being played in the evenings and Sunday the supporters coach or driving becomes even more appealing, that's before the incredible cost of the train tickets had already priced plenty of supporters off the trains.

 

[Edsmith]

I've followed this thread with interest for the last few days, many conflicting viewpoints and an implication that a lot of Saturday problems are caused by football fans.

I'm a football fan (Chesterfield, but then we've all got problems...) and I also watch England, both football and rugby union, lets not forget that there are plenty of rugby fans who drink well to excess, far more than the average football fan

A small group of us have travelled to most away matches by train since the start of the 18-19 season – a lot of our away matches are in the Home Counties. Pre-pandemic we were big fans of EMR and we were “streetwise” enough to avoid the rowdier fans. EMR had some decent first class deals and we didn't mind paying the extra to use them. We’d have several pints over the day but I like to think we've never caused a problem for rail staff

But in the last year or so its all changed

I've booked trains for away matches only to have to cancel the booking and find alternatives travel because of strikes – and I'm simply stating that as a fact, that's not a dig at the rights and wrongs of the strikes. Then there's engineering work, its probably my imagination but that seems to be happening more than it used to. We've had connecting trains cancelled on us partway through a journey, meaning that we have to find a different way of getting there in a part of the country that we aren't over-familiar with. Any decent first class deals on EMR have vanished into the mist. Reserving seats is a waste of time, more often than not the reservations aren't put up leading to a free-for-all for seats. In summary, we’re paying more than we used to for a lesser service

Travelling to football and rugby by train was my preferred method of getting to the match. Now its becoming more trouble than its worth. I can book on a supporters bus knowing that I'll get to the match and back home without hassle, and probably for less money. National Express will often get me there if there isn't a supporters bus. Where I would always travel by train its now my last choice after I've discounted everything else.

I'm just one regular leisure traveller that doesn't enjoy rail travel any more. But I expect there are many, many thousands like me, who have had bad experiences and say, “never again”. It's needed around 20-30 bad experiences for me to get to that stage because at heart I'm a rail travel fan.

I hope this doesn't come over as a rant, just the thoughts of someone who was a loyal and regular rail customer and now isn't. Its going to take a lot to get me back regularly onto the trains – if anybody cares, that is

Interesting post and I can certainly empathise with much of what you say, pre pandemic most of my weekend leisure travel, sporting events and other things, was by train but not anymore. Usually the car now where I have far more control over things, no more being stuck on trains for ages, or worse still on cold platforms, wondering if I'm ever going to get home.

I agree that not all football fans are hooligans. I once ended up at Paddington later than planned, thanks to a Eurostar farce, so I coincided with hundreds of Swansea fans travelling home. I got on a relief HST that was first stop Newport and also got a free upgrade to first class. The whole train was treated as standard only. What's not to like? The fans were absolutely fine.

Cardiff city centre is horrible on Friday and Saturday nights. Drunks everywhere. The buses virtually have to plough through them. I won't entertain the idea of going out in the centre on Friday or Saturday.

I had a Saturday night out in Cardiff recently and it was ok, I've certainly seen worse elsewhere.

 

[gazzaa2]

Also throw in travelling to London - and presumably other major cities - for concerts has become hit and miss for trains. The last thing you want is for the last trains you can get home being delayed and cancelled.

Some of these things are booked a year in advance and difficult to anticipate train strikes or the general state of the railways that far in advance.

Yeah I've stopped going into Manchester for concerts by train if they finish at all late. I really wanted to go to a gig at Old Trafford cricket ground in the summer and would normally have gone by train but I seen Ed Sheeran was playing at Man City's ground and if I remember correctly it was the Heaton Park festival that weekend as well. I decided against it as I knew it would be carnage. As it turned out hundreds were left stranded at Piccadilly/Victoria with huge crowds trying to pile on the last trains with loads left behind. It's either you can't get on the train or it doesn't turn up in the first place. You need lots of insurance, you can't bank on getting the last train anymore, or even the penultimate one.

 

[RJ]

Cardiff city centre is horrible on Friday and Saturday nights. Drunks everywhere. The buses virtually have to plough through them. I won't entertain the idea of going out in the centre on Friday or Saturday.

Cardiff is a great night out on a Saturday - had some of the best nights of my life there and some pretty memorable ones with jaunts into the Valleys tagged on! Never had any problems there either.

 

[S&CLER]

I used to go out almost every Saturday by train to walk in the Hope Valley, Buxton area, South Pennines or Lakes, and occasionally elsewhere, usually leaving here at around 8 a.m., getting somewhere in time for a 4 to 5 hour walk to be completed in daylight, and returning at a reasonable time. Now, living in an area where I am at the mercy of Northern, TPE and Avanti for longer journeys, I simply can't rely on this, even though there are several station to station walks I want to do, e.g. Silecroft to Millom and Green Road. The idea of being stranded at Green Road doesn't bear thinking about. Fortunately I can get out every Sunday by coach with two walking clubs, which used to clash but which I've now persuaded to alternate, week and week about. But the train, often in combination with a bus, allowed me to get to good walking venues where a coach can't park, such as Ripponden (train to Littleborough and then bus).

 

[Bikeman78]

Cardiff is a great night out on a Saturday - had some of the best nights of my life there and some pretty memorable ones with jaunts into the Valleys tagged on! Never had any problems there either.

Each to their own. I prefer a couple of quiet pints and being able to have a conversation without shouting.

 

[CentralTrainer]

I’ve had more negative experiences on rail services involving either Rugby fans or Racegoers than football crowds

 

[yorksrob]

Saturday travel is like Genesis' Land of Confusion.

"Too many men, too many people making too many problems.

And not much love to go round".

My own experience today. Parched. No refreshments on TPE as people standing along the aisle. No time to get anything in Manc due to tram fiasco. Now squashed on a Northern 150 where no one ever gets off. Only on.

 

[43066]

"Too many men, too many people making too many problems.

Too many bloody screaming kids on the train I’m currently on!

 

[bramling]

Too many bloody screaming kids on the train I’m currently on!

Another good reason to abandon Saturday rail travel. Some of us gave up on it years ago!

 

[yorksrob]

Too many bloody screaming kids on the train I’m currently on!

That must have been their b side

 

[43066]

That must have been their b side

It’s a cracking album, albeit a tad before my time. But we digress…

 

[miklcct]

Another good reason to abandon Saturday rail travel. Some of us gave up on it years ago!

I don't understand. Saturday is the day with the best service provision on the railways, even better than Monday to Friday in some train companies such as South Western Railway, with off-peak tickets valid all day as well.

If I need to choose one day of the week to make a trip by the railway, I'll choose Saturday first.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s a cracking album, albeit a tad before my time. But we digress…

It is indeed !

 

[dk1]

Too many bloody screaming kids on the train I’m currently on!

There should be notices in the first pairs of tables/seats behind cab doors that babies & young children are NOT permitted to sit here.

 

[MCSHF007]

There should be notices in the first pairs of tables/seats behind cab doors that babies & young children are NOT permitted to sit here.

I'm not (and never have been) a driver but can absolutely see the jusitication for this. It must be incredibly distracting.

 

[dk1]

I'm not (and never have been) a driver but can absolutely see the jusitication for this. It must be incredibly distracting.

More annoying than distracting really mate. Such a relief when they get off.

 

[Kite159]

There should be notices in the first pairs of tables/seats behind cab doors that babies & young children are NOT permitted to sit here.

Along with those who haven't heard of earphones/headphones and decide to share their wonderful selection of noises out loud

 

[317 forever]

It's not just the railways that struggle on a Saturday..

I work for a bus company and we get more cancellations on a Saturday due to not having enough drivers. No one wants to do overtime on a Saturday due to the people they have to deal with and a desire to enjoy the weekend away from work. If you add in that overtime is freely available on other days in the week then we get few takers.

More recruitment is the answer but there isn't a short term fix for public transport on Saturday's.

I considered a Christmas Eve day out on buses and trains. While I would have finished the bus rides soon after it got dark, meaning plenty of trains still running, I was concerned about a driver reluctance to take overtime that day, together with a risk of greater than average absenteeism. I am therefore going on December 10th instead. (I considered 17th but am now due to work then).

 

[bramling]

Along with those who haven't heard of earphones/headphones and decide to share their wonderful selection of noises out loud

The difference is that the above can be told to pack it in. Do that with a screaming kid and it’ll be all over social media and the local papers as a nasty train driver story!

 

[dk1]

Along with those who haven't heard of earphones/headphones and decide to share their wonderful selection of noises out loud

Yes what’s that all about? I don’t like talking on a mobile phone on a train in a civilised manner let alone on loudspeaker. Very strange behaviour indeed.