Saw some interesting logic on a CrossCountry train today

[leymoo]

I happened to be travelling between Birmingham New Street and Derby on the 0930 service.


Two gentlemen were told to purchase new singles because their tickets weren't deemed to be valid. They both had tickets that started earlier than Birmingham New Street (presumably fairly close by) and were travelling to Derby. The logic used was that their ticket wasn't valid until 0930, so it was impossible for them to have got to Birmingham New Street for 0930, therefore they had to pay the anytime fare.


I've checked a few off peak day returns from near the area to Derby and it seems starting short is permitted and break of journey is permitted on them (eg SMETHWICK RLF ST to Derby). So this is an interesting scenario - if they DID start the journey at the earlier stop, they fare dodged and therefore should be charged the single. But if you fully admit to starting short then the ticket is valid if it permits starting short.

What do the railuk-ers think?

 

[matt_world2004]

I happened to be travelling between Birmingham New Street and Derby on the 0930 service.


Two gentlemen were told to purchase new singles because their tickets weren't deemed to be valid. They both had tickets that started earlier than Birmingham New Street (presumably fairly close by) and were travelling to Derby. The logic used was that their ticket wasn't valid until 0930, so it was impossible for them to have got to Birmingham New Street for 0930, therefore they had to pay the anytime fare.


I've checked a few off peak day returns from near the area to Derby and it seems starting short is permitted and break of journey is permitted on them (eg SMETHWICK RLF ST to Derby). So this is an interesting scenario - if they DID start the journey at the earlier stop, they fare dodged and therefore should be charged the single. But if you fully admit to starting short then the ticket is valid if it permits starting short.

What do the railuk-ers think?

I would say this was very thin ice and the guard/RPI may have just been chancing, it. They could have for example got a bus or taxi to the train station, or have set the wrong departure station on the ticket, It wouldnt be significant burden of proof for a prosecution unless they could match the ticket stock to the ETM the ticket was printed on.

 

[leymoo]

I would say this was very thin ice and the guard/RPI may have just been chancing, it. They could have for example got a bus or taxi to the train station, or have set the wrong departure station on the ticket, It wouldnt be significant burden of proof for a prosecution unless they could match the ticket stock to the ETM the ticket was printed on.

He was quite aggressive about it. He was much more aggressive than the guard/rpi the other week who was dealing with a more obvious case (someone's card was declined for the single then they spotted that they had travelled on a child ticket to the previous stop). The latter person was polite but insistent.

So that does suggest your theory on him chancing it is probably accurate. What do you gain by doing that though?

 

[John @ home]

Two gentlemen were told to purchase new singles because their tickets weren't deemed to be valid.

Are you sure? If the tickets were not valid because of a time restriction only, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage give the passenger the right "to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)".

If new tickets were required, this suggests that there was an additional irregularity, e.g. Railcard discounted tickets without the Railcard(s) being present.

 

[bb21]

It's virtually impossible to comment without knowing both the exact conversation that took place and the tickets held.

If they held period returns, XC's pricing structure may well mean that a new single is cheaper.

 

[Jonfun]

Without having been there it's obviously impossible to know 100% either way, but I'd be inclined to say that it is most likely the passenger, rather than the inspector "chancing it". Yes, the passenger may have started their journey at New Street instead of the location printed on their ticket, but I would expect a passenger having done this to, when asked about it, then say "Oh, sorry - I got a lift to New Street/Travelled in on another ticket/bought this ticket so I could come back to x station on my return journey", not just willingly pay up.

In the real world, most people buy a ticket from where they've come from to where they want to go - and with the infequency of ticket checks on local services it's hardly a surprise that folk try and chance it.

 

[greatkingrat]

Lets say the passenger admits starting his journey at an LM station at 0900. Can XC legally do anything about it as the invalid travel was on a different TOC? By the time they boarded the XC service it was 0930 and the ticket was valid.

 

[bb21]

I think if the passenger admits to doing so then they can.

 

[grumblingalong]

I'd say said TM needs to take a bit of a breather, there's more than enough issues to be found on every train without sniffing out a potential fare dodging issues from a different service. If it's valid on my train then it's fine in my book.

 

[gray1404]

I'd say said TM needs to take a bit of a breather, there's more than enough issues to be found on every train without sniffing out a potential fare dodging issues from a different service. If it's valid on my train then it's fine in my book.

I agree. The TM had no evidence that the customer started their journey before 0930, given the said train departed at 0930.

 

[leymoo]

Are you sure? If the tickets were not valid because of a time restriction only, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage give the passenger the right "to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket)".

If new tickets were required, this suggests that there was an additional irregularity, e.g. Railcard discounted tickets without the Railcard(s) being present.

I suspect the single was cheaper than the excess in this case. i don't recall any railcard talk, although one guy just paid (looked like an innocent error - localish off peak that he may have done before probably starts at 9 and not at 0930). The second one refused to pay, stating his ticket was valid on this train but offered no supplementary information on this journey, and was told to be taken somewhere at the next stop.

That said, I travelled on a BT off peak code on another journey and one of my recent challengers told me that someone would be "waiting at Birmingham new street to collect me". Nothing happened in the end, so either they forgot or looked up the code, or it's a way of scaring people into fessing if they are at fault.

 

[IanXC]

Lets say the passenger admits starting his journey at an LM station at 0900. Can XC legally do anything about it as the invalid travel was on a different TOC? By the time they boarded the XC service it was 0930 and the ticket was valid.

I seem to recall that TOCs have an agreement between themselveswhich gives them all the power to protect each others revenue. Along the lines of, its the railway that must have lost out, not the specific TOC.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It really depends on the particular tickets held and the restrictions on those tickets. Some time based restrictions are a very specific "not valid departing from station z until x time" while others are a more generic "not valid until x time". It really is a bit of a minefield.

 

[ThrowawayTrain]

Lets say the passenger admits starting his journey at an LM station at 0900. Can XC legally do anything about it as the invalid travel was on a different TOC? By the time they boarded the XC service it was 0930 and the ticket was valid.

Yes, this is an interesting one.

I used to travel every week on a flow priced by XC; let's say that it was from A to E with intermediate stations B,C,D.

TOC 1 provided services A-B and B-C.

TOC 2 provided services C-D.

XC provided services B-C, C-D and D-E.

TOC 1's own off-peak tickets for A-B and B-C started at 08.30. Consequently I would travel as far as I could on non-XC tickets, and the other TOC staff were always happy with the ticket (my ticket was checked often on A-B and C-D, and always on B-C). By the time I was finally on an XC train, usually at D, it was long past 09.30.

Strictly speaking my off-peak A-E ticket wasn't valid on A-B or B-C. Whether it was valid on C-D, which started after 09.30, I don't know. But XC's pricing is so dumb, and their regard for other TOCs so low (witness the "taking flows off Chiltern" episode), that I had no qualms in bending the validity like this.

I am sure there are those who will disagree with me, which is why the throwaway account.

 

[Steveoh]

My mother in law has run into this very problem on this train before. I raised a thread on it previously regarding the validity of the tickets. She gets off peak returns from Bourneville to Darlington, sometimes getting a lift into New Street and other times getting the bus and still other times a peak single into New Street. The return to Bourneville is more convenient for getting home on the return trip. I've no doubt some try it on mind you.

 

[221129]

Penalty fares need a reciprocal arrangement but byelaws and RoRA do not.

 

[button_boxer]

It's virtually impossible to comment without knowing both the exact conversation that took place and the tickets held.

If they held period returns, XC's pricing structure may well mean that a new single is cheaper.

There's not a lot in it but the excess would still be slightly cheaper. Using Bournville as an example, the Off-Peak Return to Derby is £17.10 and the Anytime Return is £34.10, an excess of £17.

If they were returning the same day then an Anytime Day Return would by £18.40.

 

[bb21]

I have no idea where the passenger started his journey hence I can only comment generally.

Wolverhampton / Coseley - Derby, for example, would have been cheaper with a new ticket sold.

 

[TUC]

My mother in law has run into this very problem on this train before. I raised a thread on it previously regarding the validity of the tickets. She gets off peak returns from Bourneville to Darlington, sometimes getting a lift into New Street and other times getting the bus and still other times a peak single into New Street. The return to Bourneville is more convenient for getting home on the return trip. I've no doubt some try it on mind you.

This raises the issue of the difference in meaning between 'journey' and trains'. Code 2V states: 'Not valid on trains scheduled to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30'. If it stated 'not valid on journeys scheduled to depart ...' then arguably the time restriction applies to the origin station on the ticket. However, the use of 'trains' suggests that it applies to individual trains within legs of a journey i.e. that, even if you are starting short, then as long as the train you are boarding leaves that station at 0930 or later, the ticket is valid.

 

[Starmill]

This raises the issue of the difference in meaning between 'journey' and trains'. Code 2V states: 'Not valid on trains scheduled to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30'. If it stated 'not valid on journeys scheduled to depart ...' then arguably the time restriction applies to the origin station on the ticket. However, the use of 'trains' suggests that it applies to individual trains within legs of a journey i.e. that, even if you are starting short, then as long as the train you are boarding leaves that station at 0930 or later, the ticket is valid.

As far as I can see, the restriction cannot be interpreted in any other way to this.

 

[Steveoh]

As far as I can see, the restriction cannot be interpreted in any other way to this.

Indeed I would agree, otherwise with an off peak 2V ticket between Birmingham New Street and Glasgow would mean you'd be waiting until quite late in the day at Tamworth if you broke your journey there overnight on the return leg.