Scarborough to Manchester Vic direct services

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
4,676
Location
Northern England
I am just looking online at tickets from Scarborough to Manchester for a weekday in mid-July this year, and almost no direct services are appearing, even though I'm fairly sure there's an hourly service (which then continues through to Liverpool).
Have they simply not been added to the data feeds yet because of the upcoming timetable change, or are they not going to be operating for some reason?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

tommy2215

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2017
Messages
220
The hourly Liverpool-Scarborough service has not run (bar one or two a day) since before the pandemic. It is currently an hourly York-Scarborough shuttle and will be until at least December 2021.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
4,676
Location
Northern England
The hourly Liverpool-Scarborough service has not run (bar one or two a day) since before the pandemic. It is currently an hourly York-Scarborough shuttle and will be until at least December 2021.
Well, shows how much I've been paying attention then (!)

In all seriousness though, that's a little pathetic.
Transdev Blazefield are going to half-hourly on the open-top 843 bus service very soon. For people coming from further afield, they could easily be waiting far longer for a Scarborough shuttle train service than they would be for the bus, and even if they aren't, the novelty of being on an open-top bus probably outweighs the extra half hour or so that the bus takes over the train. Thus, you can see how for a leisure traveller heading to the seaside, the bus - or worse, the car - starts to become a more attractive option. (And this isn't even close to the worst example of this, by the way).

Edit: I've just realised that the 843 isn't actually open-top. But you get the idea.

If the railway wants leisure passengers - and it's going to need them, with commuting on the decline - it has to start becoming more competitive.
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
9,251
half-hourly on the open-top 843 bus service
To be pedantic, I think glass-roofed would be a better description. I'm not convinced that anyone would want to travel from Leeds to Scarborough on an open-top bus.

The issue with through services to Scarborough is the 68+Mk5 sets which only Scarborough and Manchester Airport traincrew sign. It is easier to keep them concentrated on the Scarborough to York end of the route because of that and allow other stock to work the reduced level of service across the Pennines.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
4,676
Location
Northern England
To be pedantic, I think glass-roofed would be a better description. I'm not convinced that anyone would want to travel from Leeds to Scarborough on an open-top bus.
You're absolutely right, I was mixing it up with the ones between Windermere and Grasmere (completely different part of the country I know, but similar concept)
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
2,574
Moving on from the idea of an open top bus flying down the A64, this is another example of how dysfunctional and slow to react the rail industry is

Everybody knows staycations are going to be massive this year, it’s mentioned across the media constantly, so in a year when this is the case, TPE reduce the Leeds to Scarborough service from hourly to no service at all

Yes you can change at York, but how many will take one look at the lack of direct trains, that have operated forever, and then make alternative arrangements?
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
12,096
Location
Airedale
Moving on from the idea of an open top bus flying down the A64, this is another example of how dysfunctional and slow to react the rail industry is

Everybody knows staycations are going to be massive this year, it’s mentioned across the media constantly, so in a year when this is the case, TPE reduce the Leeds to Scarborough service from hourly to no service at all

Yes you can change at York, but how many will take one look at the lack of direct trains, that have operated forever, and then make alternative arrangements?
There is an 0927 Leeds-Scarborough from May - the key daytrip time. (Running a few more like that would make sense!)
 

blackfive460

Member
Joined
23 Jun 2010
Messages
701
On the plus side, running mainly shuttles, Scarborough has had a far more reliable service from TPE than has been the case in the past!
I and I'm sure a few others would not be unhappy if the current service remained though it would be nice to have an 08:34 departure reinstated.

It would be even better if Northern showed some sign of running their promised service between York and Scarborough but that is looking most unlikely to ever happen now.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
12,096
Location
Airedale

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
17,515
Location
Manchester
It's a good job that Scarborough services have at least gone back to hourly. It's questionable if through trains could return.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
15,495
Location
West of Andover
It's a good job that Scarborough services have at least gone back to hourly. It's questionable if through trains could return.

Agreed, as I would imagine trains to Scarborough would be busier this year with more domestic holidays, and Scarborough is a seaside town with a range of accommodation
 

BoroAndy

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
69
Location
Scarborough
Agreed, as I would imagine trains to Scarborough would be busier this year with more domestic holidays, and Scarborough is a seaside town with a range of accommodation
If they get to about July and all the YRK-SCA trains are rammed to overflowing, what will they do? SCA p3 looking like Waterloo Station at 5pm again maybe. TPE will get mega grief.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,810
Location
Halifax, Yorks
Some odd scheduling on RTT with an 0Txx headcode leaving SCA for York 10 minutes before the regular TP service in quite a lot of hours. Could these be possible dupes if things get busy >
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
15,495
Location
West of Andover
If they get to about July and all the YRK-SCA trains are rammed to overflowing, what will they do? SCA p3 looking like Waterloo Station at 5pm again maybe. TPE will get mega grief.

Depends if the DFT will allow them to run extra trains, even using 802s assuming the staff are trained (as I would imagine in the current reduced timetable with no Manchester Airport - Newcastle trains running nor many Newcastle - Edinburgh trains would have a few 802s sitting spare daily).
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
9,251
Some odd scheduling on RTT with an 0Txx headcode leaving SCA for York 10 minutes before the regular TP service in quite a lot of hours. Could these be possible dupes if things get busy >
No, they are light engines (train reporting number starting with 0) for crew training.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
12,096
Location
Airedale
If they get to about July and all the YRK-SCA trains are rammed to overflowing, what will they do? SCA p3 looking like Waterloo Station at 5pm again maybe. TPE will get mega grief.
Possibly by then they will have trained a couple more drivers and be able to run an extra or two? Though the 0Txx keep getting cancelled...
There's also a 1951 Q path to Liverpool (doubt it would get that far!), ECS from Ardwick.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
17,515
Location
Manchester
If they get to about July and all the YRK-SCA trains are rammed to overflowing, what will they do? SCA p3 looking like Waterloo Station at 5pm again maybe. TPE will get mega grief.
Are the trains really likely to be overflowing? Some are pairs of 185s and others 5 car locomotive hauled sets. The day return price from York to Scarborough isn't cheap at £20.10 so I doubt that they will be completely overwhelmed.
 

Watershed

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
3,143
Location
UK
Moving on from the idea of an open top bus flying down the A64, this is another example of how dysfunctional and slow to react the rail industry is

Everybody knows staycations are going to be massive this year, it’s mentioned across the media constantly, so in a year when this is the case, TPE reduce the Leeds to Scarborough service from hourly to no service at all

Yes you can change at York, but how many will take one look at the lack of direct trains, that have operated forever, and then make alternative arrangements?
To clarify - the reduction didn't happen this year. The last time there was an all-day through service was March 2020, apart from during the emergency timetable that was in force between January and March this year, where there was an hourly service from Manchester to York, thence alternating between Scarborough and Redcar.

The rail industry is always going to less flexible than the bus or airline industry, with the nature of needing crew with the relevant traction and route knowledge, as well as needing appropriate rolling stock. However I agree that this is a very unfortunate outcome.

It's a good job that Scarborough services have at least gone back to hourly. It's questionable if through trains could return.
Through trains will return - the additional capacity will be needed in the longer term - it's just a question of when it will happen.

If they get to about July and all the YRK-SCA trains are rammed to overflowing, what will they do? SCA p3 looking like Waterloo Station at 5pm again maybe. TPE will get mega grief.
There is a small chance of some ad-hoc extras, as the Mk5s have some long turnarounds at certain times of day and York depot normally has a spare 185. But it is very unlikely that any extra services will be added in this year.

Depends if the DFT will allow them to run extra trains, even using 802s assuming the staff are trained (as I would imagine in the current reduced timetable with no Manchester Airport - Newcastle trains running nor many Newcastle - Edinburgh trains would have a few 802s sitting spare daily).
Whilst there are about 5 spare 802s, it would likely be a very difficult logistical challenge to put them into use on the Scarborough line, based on the location and capacity of depots/stabling facilities.

Possibly by then they will have trained a couple more drivers and be able to run an extra or two? Though the 0Txx keep getting cancelled...
There's also a 1951 Q path to Liverpool (doubt it would get that far!), ECS from Ardwick.
Driver training is a very slow process! 0Ts will be empty locos running as and when required. The Q path to Liverpool will run all the way if it's activated, but I'm pretty sure it's route rather than traction learning (or refreshing), as it's operated by a 185.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,758
Location
Yorkshire
If they get to about July and all the YRK-SCA trains are rammed to overflowing, what will they do? SCA p3 looking like Waterloo Station at 5pm again maybe. TPE will get mega grief.
If anyone wishes to make any suggestions and/or speculate on this point, they are welcome to create a thread in the appropriate forum section :)
Everybody knows staycations are going to be massive this year, it’s mentioned across the media constantly, so in a year when this is the case, TPE reduce the Leeds to Scarborough service from hourly to no service at all
I don't think that you can describe a journey that requires a change as being "no service at all"

Yes you can change at York, but how many will take one look at the lack of direct trains, that have operated forever, and then make alternative arrangements?
I am sure there are many factors that will deter people using the train, but I suspect the lack of direct trains is no the biggest such factor.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
611
Location
The North
Everybody knows staycations are going to be massive this year, it’s mentioned across the media constantly, so in a year when this is the case, TPE reduce the Leeds to Scarborough service from hourly to no service at all

Yes you can change at York, but how many will take one look at the lack of direct trains, that have operated forever, and then make alternative arrangements?
Rail operators cannot be that flexible, especially at the minute. There's a backlog to the tune of thousands of training days and the DfT are on a cost cutting drive, especially on rest day working. There may be the odd additional service (there were 4 through services before lockdown 2.0) , but not a chance of returning to pre-pandemic levels until May 22 at the earliest.
802s aren't cleared to Scarborough, and being able to send one there once in a blue moon is hardly going to justify the effort and expense of clearing them.

They are cleared, but they still wouldn't be in use - plenty of Mk5 sets around. Still, bar the odd additional through service as per summer 2020.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
1,488
Moving on from the idea of an open top bus flying down the A64, this is another example of how dysfunctional and slow to react the rail industry is

Not through lack of trying but by its nature the rail industry can’t be as dynamic to react as the bus industry. Training times and standards are different and the backlog of training is why Scarborough is mostly a shuttle service from Leeds?

Throwing it open to you, if you think our industry is so dysfunctional how do you propose making training of crews ‘more agile’ whilst retaining the expected high levels of safety? It’s not as easy as you might think, continental Europe has fared much better as they generally have speed based signalling which requires route familiarisation usually compared to the full route learning to go with the route based signalling we have here (apart from oh the Cambrian)....
 

Watershed

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
3,143
Location
UK
They are cleared, but they still wouldn't be in use - plenty of Mk5 sets around. Still, bar the odd additional through service as per summer 2020.
The Mk5s have their own "issues", of course, so neither are really an option.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,199
Are the trains really likely to be overflowing? Some are pairs of 185s and others 5 car locomotive hauled sets. The day return price from York to Scarborough isn't cheap at £20.10 so I doubt that they will be completely overwhelmed.

The benefit of keeping it as York-Scarborough only is keeping all shuttle trains at maximum length without having to send units on a jolly all the way to Liverpool and back.
 

Watershed

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
3,143
Location
UK
The benefit of keeping it as York-Scarborough only is keeping all shuttle trains at maximum length without having to send units on a jolly all the way to Liverpool and back.
The capacity certainly wouldn't be going to waste between Leeds and Manchester - there's no inherent reason why services would have to run through to Liverpool.
 

Manutd1999

Member
Joined
21 Feb 2021
Messages
47
Location
UK
How much demand is there between Manchester/Liverpool and Scarborough, really? Outside of a few peak summer days, I imagine it is not much.

Would it not make more sense to have a half-hourly Leeds-York-Scarborough stopper, operated by Northern? The TPE could be sent somewhere else (maybe Hull) or even terminate at York.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
611
Location
The North
The Mk5s have their own "issues", of course, so neither are really an option.
The Mk5s are an option as they're the rolling stock that will be used day in day out on that route. Past issues won't stop that.
Would it not make more sense to have a half-hourly Leeds-York-Scarborough stopper, operated by Northern? The TPE could be sent somewhere else (maybe Hull) or even terminate at York.
No it really wouldn't. Hull doesn't particularly need another service right now and pre-covid the only time it would was at the peak.

Leeds-Malton is a very popular service, further causing capacity issues between York-Leeds with a Northern stopper and increasing journey times for people from Malton/Scarborough to Leeds isn't particularly good practice.
 

RHolmes

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2019
Messages
343
How much demand is there between Manchester/Liverpool and Scarborough, really? Outside of a few peak summer days, I imagine it is not much.

Would it not make more sense to have a half-hourly Leeds-York-Scarborough stopper, operated by Northern? The TPE could be sent somewhere else (maybe Hull) or even terminate at York.

The Hull route is currently one of the quietest sections on the network bar a few busy peak/weekend services, it doesn’t need any additional capacity

Again, the majority of Hull link/route traincrew (Man Pic, Liverpool, Hull) do NOT sign the MK5A or 68. Pic drivers that do sign the 68 do not sign Hull. Airport conductors sign the MK5A but the number of trips to/from Hull is minimal

If they get to about July and all the YRK-SCA trains are rammed to overflowing, what will they do? SCA p3 looking like Waterloo Station at 5pm again maybe. TPE will get mega grief.

It’s not going to happen unless a short-formation takes place and no train is worse than a short one!

MK5A capacity is 261 Standard
2x 185 capacity is 334 Standard

Perfectly adequate for an hourly shuttle service
 

Top