Scarborough; TPEx reliability

[nr758123]

Judging by the pax numbers I see everyday on TPE services, I think there is a general misunderstanding that passenger numbers have collapsed. I can absolutely guarantee you they haven't

If you were to ask the station staff at Greenfield or Mossley, they would be able to tell you that passenger numbers are well down. If you were to see the station car park and on-street parking at Greenfield you would them more than half empty since the new timetable. Of course it's not the whole of TPEs network, but it's what used to be a significant passenger flow which is well down since the timetable change.

 

[Moonshot]

If you were to ask the station staff at Greenfield or Mossley, they would be able to tell you that passenger numbers are well down. If you were to see the station car park and on-street parking at Greenfield you would them more than half empty since the new timetable. Of course it's not the whole of TPEs network, but it's what used to be a significant passenger flow which is well down since the timetable change.

I do see the above stations...I know for a fact you are wrong.

 

[nr758123]

I do see the above stations...I know for a fact you are wrong.

No. I am not wrong about this.

You are a guard on Northern, are you not? So even if you do regularly work the handful of Northern's trains at Greenfield, you don't see TPEs trains stopping there in either morning or evening peak and you don't see how empty the car park and on-street parking is.

I do realise, however, that you need to have the last word on everything, even if that last word is a load of nonsense.

 

[B&I]

You mean apart from the incentive to raise passenger numbers as this raises revenue, increasing profits while still paying back the hefty premiums?

That's all the franchises really exist to do.

Are TPE paying premiums ?

 

[daikilo]

Are TPE paying premiums ?

According to the below they are supposed to pay about 400 million over the life of the franchise.
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/.../SN01343.pdf

 

[Moonshot]

No. I am not wrong about this.

You are a guard on Northern, are you not? So even if you do regularly work the handful of Northern's trains at Greenfield, you don't see TPEs trains stopping there in either morning or evening peak and you don't see how empty the car park and on-street parking is.

I do realise, however, that you need to have the last word on everything, even if that last word is a load of nonsense.

I live in Greenfield

 

[greyman42]

Returning to Monday's fiasco, did anyone else notice that behind the two trains terminated at Malton (1E43 & 1E45) came 5Z33, an ECS move from Carnforth to Scarborough for a charter to Windsor the following day.
Apparently WCRC contacted TPE control and offered to stop the ECS at Malton, pick up the many passengers and take them to Scarborough.
TPE control said no...

Why would they say no? Is there an issue with insurance or disabled passengers or something of that nature?

 

[B&I]

According to the below they are supposed to pay about 400 million over the life of the franchise.
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/.../SN01343.pdf

Looks like I owe them an apology. I assumed that they didn't care about running a proper servuce because they were sucking at the teat of the state. It turns out that they are simply very poor businesspeople.

I reserve the right to withdraw this apology if and when TPE asks for a bail-out.

 

[AndrewE]

According to the below they are supposed to pay about 400 million over the life of the franchise.
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/.../SN01343.pdf

Yeah, right. Any chance it might be like all the other franchises that have thrown in the towel just before payback time starts?

I live in Greenfield

Yes, but do you ever commute from there, or just drive in and back out of Manchester for your shifts? It's quite possible that the trains that you work don't actually show the overall picture...

 

[daikilo]

Yeah, right. Any chance it might be like all the other franchises that have thrown in the towel just before payback time starts?

Well, they have just provisioned over 100M for future losses on the contract which presumably includes the assumption they will have to pay the 400M.

 

[mike57]

According to the below they are supposed to pay about 400 million over the life of the franchise.
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/.../SN01343.pdf

Interesting, if my experiences on the 17:31 from Manchester to Scarborough are repeated across the network then they will either be in trouble or looking for taxpayer support.

To clarify: I have used this service about 9 times since the timetable change, and on not one of those occasions has it left Manchester more than 75% full. This week I had a table for 4 to myself (and I shower every day) the front carriage probably had 25 people in it. Under the old timetable this would have been the 17:07 from Manchester Ox Rd, and it would have been full, standing, and sometimes leaving people behind at Manchester Pic. This is a peak time train with long distance travellers like myself using an anytime return = max revenue.

So as a regular user I am in no doubt that some services are much less busy = significantly less revenue. On that basis I would predict a VTEC type situation on the horizon

 

[Moonshot]

Yeah, right. Any chance it might be like all the other franchises that have thrown in the towel just before payback time starts?

Yes, but do you ever commute from there, or just drive in and back out of Manchester for your shifts? It's quite possible that the trains that you work don't actually show the overall picture...

Yes I do , shifts allowing of course. I ll state again ...despite some of those who think there has been a wholesale desertion of passengers, the reality is different. Those of us who actually do work in this industry are much better placed to actually see what is going on.

 

[Craigster90]

1908 to Scarborough from Malton: CANCELLED there’s a surprise! Lucily my mate is on the 1913 Malton to York!

 

[yorksrob]

Completely subjective of course, but Huddersfield felt a lot quieter than usual this morning.

 

[northernchris]

There seemed quite a few cancellations today due to traincrew shortages. Not ideal when York races are on

 

[30907]

There seemed quite a few cancellations today due to traincrew shortages. Not ideal when York races are on

A sample from Leeds
1021 cancelled as far as York.
1024 Northern - didn't see but station overtime everywhere delaying 1039.
1039 crush loaded, ran non stop YRK-NCL to make up 20min delay
1052 (which we waited for) full and standing but not excessive, emptied at York.

Had the 1021 run, provision would have been OK IMO.

 

[northernchris]

It was this evening where it seemed to go a bit wrong. From Leeds, the 1711, 1721 and 1821 were cancelled so if these were cancelled beyond York too it's likely to have affected those heading back from the races

 

[Craigster90]

Yeah train crew shortages were the reason over the tannoy

 

[Merseysider]

Just another normal day at Manchester Airport.

0817, 0919, 1019, 1319, 1419, 1519 towards Newcastle cancelled.

And on the 29th we, unsurprisingly, had the 0817, 0919, 1019, 1119 and 1719 cancelled. (Starting to see a pattern?)

The 28th only saw 5 cancellations! The 0817, 0919, 1019, 1519 and 1619.

Forgive my French, but the ‘service’ is an absolute merdique joke at the moment.

Less than one out of two trains from Manchester Airport to Newcastle has actually been completing the full journey from MIA to NCL, let alone completing it on time. It’s a disgrace.

It’s clear that the new timetable, along with sending these trains via the Ordsall Chord and Vic, has decimated reliability.

 

[cactustwirly]

Just another normal day at Manchester Airport.

0817, 0919, 1019, 1319, 1419, 1519 towards Newcastle cancelled.

And on the 29th we, unsurprisingly, had the 0817, 0919, 1019, 1119 and 1719 cancelled. (Starting to see a pattern?)

The 28th only saw 5 cancellations! The 0817, 0919, 1019, 1519 and 1619.

Forgive my French, but the ‘service’ is an absolute merdique joke at the moment.

Less than one out of two trains from Manchester Airport to Newcastle has actually been completing the full journey from MIA to NCL, let alone completing it on time. It’s a disgrace.

It’s clear that the new timetable, along with sending these trains via the Ordsall Chord and Vic, has decimated reliability.

The whole mess through Oxford Road needs sorting out.
It's obviously way too congested, so services should be diverted away from it.

Perhaps the 'spanish solution' should be used on Piccadilly platforms 13 & 14

 

[MarkyT]

The whole mess through Oxford Road needs sorting out.
It's obviously way too congested, so services should be diverted away from it.

Perhaps the 'spanish solution' should be used on Piccadilly platforms 13 & 14

If you're going to the trouble of adding extra platforms you might as well provide at least one new track alongside them!

 

[43074]

The whole mess through Oxford Road needs sorting out.
It's obviously way too congested, so services should be diverted away from it.

Perhaps the 'spanish solution' should be used on Piccadilly platforms 13 & 14

I'd heard the planning headways were reduced on the Oxford Road corridor to allow the aspirations of the new Northern and TPE franchises to be planned to work through that section: maybe we're feeling the effects of that decision. The question then becomes what do you sacrifice to make it work, given you don't want the politically embarrassing situation of new infrastructure in the North (Ordsall chord) still only getting an hourly Calder Valley service 12 months after opening.

Clearly Piccadilly needs platforms 15 and 16, Mr Grayling deserves to be shot for his comments on the proposals, essentially to the effect that its an analogue solution on a digital railway and that if you can get 24tph through the TL core with ATO why not use similar technology here?

 

[MarkyT]

I'd heard the planning headways were reduced on the Oxford Road corridor to allow the aspirations of the new Northern and TPE franchises to be planned to work through that section: maybe we're feeling the effects of that decision. The question then becomes what do you sacrifice to make it work, given you don't want the politically embarrassing situation of new infrastructure in the North (Ordsall chord) still only getting an hourly Calder Valley service 12 months after opening.

Clearly Piccadilly needs platforms 15 and 16, Mr Grayling deserves to be shot for his comments on the proposals, essentially to the effect that its an analogue solution on a digital railway and that if you can get 24tph through the TL core with ATO why not use similar technology here?

Much as I'm a fan of transpennine electrification, politically if it's a case of either that or the platforms 15/16 project I think Piccadilly is by far the more important scheme in the short to medium term for overall network performance. At least bi-modes will allow more wiring to be added in the future to reduce diesel running distance once costs are under better control. I would however strongly advocate partial extension of wires beyond Victoria going east to (say) Rochdale and Stalybridge so Northern emus on stopping services from the west can all have somewhere to go across Manchester under the wires without having to turn back at Victoria. That would also reduce diesel mileage for the bi-modes.

 

[Geeves]

My humble opinion on the matter after working at Vic during these last few weeks is that the Newcastle and Middlesbroughs would be as well going via Guide Bridge and ending in the bays at Picc. They never make up any time, they delay everything and anything all the way from Leeds, Vic, Oxford Road and the Airport. Let Northern run a Calder Valley to the Airport to pick up some slack or let Arriva run a South Wales service round to Vic.

TPE round the chord is a failure.

 

[Bantamzen]

Completely subjective of course, but Huddersfield felt a lot quieter than usual this morning.

I travelled through Huddersfield on the way to Piccadilly from Leeds, and both Leeds and Huddersfield were a lot quieter. Even Piccadilly / Oxford Road didn't feel as busy as they might usually be.

 

[mike57]

And even today some heavy delays into Scarborough looking at RTT, not sure why. Admittedly no cancellations yet, but if they can not run to time on a Sunday when there are less trains on the network then something is seriously wrong. The profile of the TPE North mess needs raising on social media etc. then something may get done about it.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Doubt it.
Fingers are firmly in ears saying "la la la la la..... It all Northern's fault! And we have new trains coming. New trains will solve everything!"

 

[scarby]

I have some of the Scarborough-York-Leeds pocket timetables from the 1970s and 1980s. In the one for 1972-73, a lot of the turnaround times at Scarborough were often nearly an hour. In 1985-86, by which time a through service to Liverpool had started, the turnaround times were generally around 30 minutes.

Anyone suggesting a 30-minute turnaround today would probably be dismissed as an out of touch old fuddy-duddy - but I bet the overwhelming majority of services in those past years left Scarborough on time.

 

[mike57]

I have some of the Scarborough-York-Leeds pocket timetables from the 1970s and 1980s. In the one for 1972-73, a lot of the turnaround times at Scarborough were often nearly an hour. In 1985-86, by which time a through service to Liverpool had started, the turnaround times were generally around 30 minutes.

Anyone suggesting a 30-minute turnaround today would probably be dismissed as an out of touch old fuddy-duddy - but I bet the overwhelming majority of services in those past years left Scarborough on time.

The turnaround times worked OK up until May 19th this year. Scarborough was typically 20+ mins (xx:28 arr, xx:50 dep), and it had been like this for quite a few years, and the service had been reliable. I've been using the TPE service to York, Manchester and the NW since 2007, and I've seen more serious delays and cancellations in the 6 weeks since the timetable change than in the preceding 11 years. Its not just the turn around times its the whole timetable, there is no slack anywhere, and as soon a train is a few minutes late the delays mushroom and you have the situation where an ontime departure from Manchester looses time all the way through the journey to York, arriving 20-30 mins late.

I suspect the average achieved (as opposed to time tabled) journey time from Manchester to York has increased post May 20th. The Ordsall chord looks like a good idea on paper but the reality is the existing infrastructure can't support it. The Oxford Road corridor is overloaded.

As a aside I wonder about the sense of having Deansgate, Oxford Rd and Piccadilly so close together, however the difficulties that would encountered by closing say Deansgate, which is well served by trams would be politically unacceptable.

You also now have the situation where peak hour departures from Man Vic are that havn't gone via Piccadilly under utilised, while services that call at Piccadilly are rammed.

What actually annoys me is that a couple of weeks before the change TPE were on Look North trying to tell us that the changes were an improvement, and of course now they point blank refuse all questions.

And of course another bad day for Scarborough passengers, 2 cancellations to date, 14:35 arr 51 dep and 19:35/51 as well as several services 20-30 minutes late. However 16:08 from Malton was on time for the first time for 3 weeks, I actually made Coast Line connection at Seamer tonight.

 

[scarby]

The Transpennine Express Scarborough-York service continues to be abysmal on a daily basis - if possible it seems to be getting even worse.

Two in/out cancellations yesterday, both as usual dumping passengers at Malton. One was "only" 20 late when turned.

Today the 0600 to Manchester Airport yet again terminated at Picadilly even though it was only 10 late.

And lareday, the 0835 arrival/0846 departure cancelled.